CPU Survey

[Damaera]

Raven also said that many things would have to be recoded for SSE1 support. Why go the extra mile and recode and remove so many things just for SSE1 support when the majority has SSE2?

For those with SSE1: If you want to play ESF and games that will be released in the next few years, go for the upgrade. If you refuse or don't have enough money, well, there's nothing we can really say except tough luck.

 

[Sicron]

Being a programmer myself, I do understand that. I've already told you many times why you're wrong about that though. When you write software of ANY kind, you write it to be compatible with as many systems as you possibly can. How many applications out there do you know of that require SSE2 to function? I don't know of any. Just because it's available and technically better doesn't always mean developers should use it. Compatibility comes long before performance.

I've also stated why the Steam hardware survey can't be trusted. It's like when websites use their statistical data to try to "prove" that one browser is superior over another based on how many unique hits they get from people using that browser. Does their website account for the entire internet? No. Therefore, is that browser truly used by the majority of internet-goers? Probably not.

There's one difference here though. When developing an actual program, you might choose for compatibility over performance. You can probably tweak a lot with the coding anyway, and get a pretty decent or good performance out of it. The difference here though is...well, the ESF team is not designing from the ground up. They are tweaking, hacking and molesting (just kidding ) the GoldSource engine. At some point, they just HAVE to make the decision to go for SSE2 to gain some extra, much needed, performance.

Your argument that Steam's survey can't be trusted is negligible as well. Why wouldn't it be trustworthy? They are not trying to prove that Steam is better, they are just showing with their survey that most of their users have SSE2 compatible processors. It's both a pro for their side as for the developing mod communities, so they know they can relatively safely develop for SSE2, since 98,8% of the Steam users can play the game. Now, if you'd say that ESF was actually developed as a stand-alone game, I would consider your point valid. You don't know anything about the capabilities of processors of other users outside of Steam. But that isn't the case here, this is a survey held by Valve, using Steam and provides valid information about the average Steam users' computer specifications.

 

[hleV]

Raven also said that many things would have to be recoded for SSE1 support. Why go the extra mile and recode and remove so many things just for SSE1 support when the majority has SSE2?

For those with SSE1: If you want to play ESF and games that will be released in the next few years, go for the upgrade. If you refuse or don't have enough money, well, there's nothing we can really say except tough luck.

Basically if you want to play ESF: Final, upgrade your CPU. Otherwise GTFO.

The thing is, it's a Half-Life 1 mod. A HALF-LIFE 1 MOD. It should have been said from the beginning that it will require more than let's say UT3. Oh yeah, the mod would be laughed at if it did. That's not necessary true, but that's how I see it.

ESF progress:
ESF 1.2.3: 100 FPS.
ESF 1.3: non-playable.

And that Steam survey is bull****. Most of the people I know that use Steam have PCs like mine. Is Lithuania so poor? Dunno.

You, with up-to-date PCs don't have to give a **** about it, but I'll still try to prove stuff from my perspective.

 

[Grega]

You, with up-to-date PCs don't have to give a **** about it, but I'll still try to prove stuff from my perspective.

Again an up to date PC uses an I7 or similar processor. My computer is 4 years old and its allready outdated. Any computer is outdated after only a year. I understand your point but what you are saying in nonsense. Hardware older than 3 years is allready so outdated that the new stuff is 4 or 5 times beter. Thats how things work in computer hardware development. A computer older then 6 years is allready considered prehistoric and thats saying something.

Yes i can run ESF Final. What kind of FPS ill be getting i dont know. As for why we didnt say youll require a better computer... Wait we did. The moment we started with the shader updates we stated that the minimum requirements will be higher. We allso said we dont know what they would be.

 

[Spunky]

They aren't ignorable factors. I've seen countless threads on this forum where people have downloaded Steam and bought Half-Life only to play ESF. While we're on the subject of threads on this forum, I've seen even more where the person couldn't afford Half-Life, let alone a new processor.

 

[Sicron]

It's not bull****, it's a survey. Why the hell would Valve fake on of their own surveys? So modders will purposely mod with SSE2 in mind, only to find out no one apparently has it?

How can you seriously still compare ESF to "A HALF LIFE 1 MOD." when it pretty much obvious from the current screenshots, it doesn't look ANYTHING like any other ordinary HL1 mod. Seriously, when Crytek started developing Crysis, and you found out your computer was too crappy to run their game...did you go to their forums complaing about how they made the game too pretty? It's the same here. Technology advances, games demand more power...and if you want to play them, you either upgrade or don't play it. You can't forever take the time to develop for older systems. And in computer-years, 6 years is a lot. You are not just 1 or 2 generations behind with your CPU, no, you are MANY generations behind. We have had more powerful single core CPU's than you have now. We have had Core Duo processors (2 generations?), Core 2 Duo processors (3 generations), Quad Core processors (1 or 2 generations?) and now Core I processors ( already at...2 or 3 generations. i7, newer i7, i5)

Basically, you CPU is outdated by like 8 generations of CPU's. Quit whining and start upgrading. A 5 generation old CPU should be able to handle ESF (well SSE2 at least), and you can probably find those on ebay for less than 5 dollars.

 

[Grega]

And if they did so then they have contributed to the survey since STEAM periodically makes it.

Besides we will be stating the minimum requirements with the downloads anyhow.

 

[Spunky]

Sicron, I've already stated why upgrading isn't a realistic solution. To upgrade one thing in my system, I'd have to upgrade everything, and there's no way I'm going to do that just for ESF. My CPU uses Socket A. The first CPU from AMD to support SSE2 uses Socket 754. I'd have to buy a new motherboard with that socket, which would likely mean new RAM and a new video card as well.

For those with SSE1: If you want to play ESF and games that will be released in the next few years, go for the upgrade. If you refuse or don't have enough money, well, there's nothing we can really say except tough luck.

That has to be the new record for ****tiest thing ever stated on this forum.

 

[Damaera]

Basically if you want to play ESF: Final, upgrade your CPU. Otherwise GTFO.

The thing is, it's a Half-Life 1 mod. A HALF-LIFE 1 MOD. It should have been said from the beginning that it will require more than let's say UT3. Oh yeah, the mod would be laughed at if it did. That's not necessary true, but that's how I see it.

ESF progress:
ESF 1.2.3: 100 FPS.
ESF 1.3: non-playable.

And that Steam survey is bull****. Most of the people I know that use Steam have PCs like mine. Is Lithuania so poor? Dunno.

You, with up-to-date PCs don't have to give a **** about it, but I'll still try to prove stuff from my perspective.

First off, it doesn't really matter what engine the mod is being developed on. It's been hacked to the core, and ESF:Final is getting insane graphics additions.. additions that were "impossible to be put in". Just because it's a Half-Life 1 mod doesn't mean that you should need a 10 year old computer to play the mod.
Second, It's been constantly pointed out (especially by Raven), that ESF will require a bit more hardware than the average Half-Life 1 mod. Mainly because of the new graphics, FX, maps... and pretty much everything else. Third, like I said before, it's not worth going the extra mile just to have the small minority of fans to play the mod.

Also, the steam survey isn't bull****. It's a simple hardway sample, and it's been proven that the majority uses SSE2.

That has to be the new record for ****tiest thing ever stated on this forum.

Are you expecting sympathy? What else can be said and done? There's a 1% chance that Raven and the rest of the coders will agree with adding SSE1 support.

 

[Spunky]

I spoke with Raven. He said if there's something that can be done, he wants to do it. If that's how things turn out, and everyone can play the mod in the end, then I'm happy.

Also, the steam survey isn't bull****. It's a simple hardway sample, and it's been proven that the majority uses SSE2.

Aaand we've come full circle. Read earlier posts in this thread. I'll make it easy for you:

I've also stated why the Steam hardware survey can't be trusted. It's like when websites use their statistical data to try to "prove" that one browser is superior over another based on how many unique hits they get from people using that browser. Does their website account for the entire internet? No. Therefore, is that browser truly used by the majority of internet-goers? Probably not.

I would say that sounds like poor game design in the end, if you NEED SSE2 just to make the game playable. If that's the case, it can't be very playable to begin with, and certain people on the inside have told me this many times.

 

[Grega]

You are comparing a steam survey to a browser survey of a site?

Seriously.

The STEAM survey is not bull****. We are developing the game to be used with STEAM and the survey is from the people who use STEAM itself. We couldnt care less for anyone else.

With your example it would mean. The site has a survey about web browsers that its visitors use. And we are making an application for that specific site. Ofcourse we would trust their survey. The people who use it made the results. Anyone who doesnt use it is ignorable. So yeas the internet is ignorable as in this situation anytoing outside the site/STEAM doesnt exist.

 

[Spunky]

Grega, do you know what scope means? That was the point of my comparison to web statistics. You still aren't understanding what I'm trying to say. 98% of the people who took the Steam hardware survey have processors supporting SSE2. That's not accounting for all of the people who either didn't vote or have never used Steam. If you think ESF won't attract people who've never used Steam before, you'd likely be quite surprised. That survey doesn't account for those people.

I've seen countless threads on this forum where people have downloaded Steam and bought Half-Life only to play ESF.

The hardware survey can only collect information from the people who are able to take it, and care to take it. Every time the survey prompt pops up, I always close it. I never cared about it until now. Most people are like that. It's too bad the survey doesn't show the total number of people it's collected data from. If it did, it would probably be somewhere around 2/5 of the total number of active Steam accounts. People are extremely lazy.

 

[Sicron]

For crying out loud, May last year, over 330,000 people participated in the survey. How many people do you want to have a proper 'scope'?! 330,000 people is ENORMOUSLY accurate for a survey. Even scientific theories aren't tested that much. when 98,8% of 330,000 people use SSE2. You can bet your ass that when comparing it to 3 million users, you will still be close to 98,8%.

 

[Spunky]

There are over 1,000 games available on Steam, and in January 2010 Valve announced that it had surpassed 25 million active user accounts.

A little more than 1% participated in the survey.

 

[It's over One Million!]

I vote for more FPS, it mean SSE2 code. I still hope that ESF requirements will be similar to HL2 after code optimization

 

[sub]

A little more than 1% participated in the survey.

Have you ever taken a statistics class? A small random sample, even as small as 1%, is good enough to be indicative of the entire market.

 

[Spunky]

Wtf? No it isn't. You can't predict who votes and who doesn't. The survey could have just as easily gone entirely the other way. 25,000,000 people is too many for a mere 1% to be considered reliable.

 

[Grega]

Wtf? No it isn't. You can't predict who votes and who doesn't. The survey could have just as easily gone entirely the other way. 25,000,000 people is too many for a mere 1% to be considered reliable.

On the contrary. Asking 500 random people to fill out a survey and you have a statistic for a whole city thats preety acurate.

 

[hleV]

25,000,000 people is too many for a mere 1% to be considered reliable.

+1.

**** 5 letters. Letters from quotes should be also counted.

 

[zee]

Processor 1 ID = 0
Number of cores 4 (max 8)
Number of threads 4 (max 16)
Name Intel Core i5 750
Codename Lynnfield
Specification Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU 750 @ 2.67GHz
Package (platform ID) Socket 1156 LGA (0x1)
CPUID 6.E.5
Extended CPUID 6.1E
Core Stepping B1
Technology 45 nm
Core Speed 2663.4 MHz
Multiplier x FSB 20.0 x 133.2 MHz
Rated Bus speed 2397.1 MHz
Stock frequency 2666 MHz
Instructions sets MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4.1, SSE4.2, EM64T, VT-x
L1 Data cache 4 x 32 KBytes, 8-way set associative, 64-byte line size
L1 Instruction cache 4 x 32 KBytes, 4-way set associative, 64-byte line size
L2 cache 4 x 256 KBytes, 8-way set associative, 64-byte line size
L3 cache 8 MBytes, 16-way set associative, 64-byte line size
FID/VID Control yes

don't limit the games functionality to match those with weak backbones. they will upgrade eventually. Btw law of statistic is you must have 10% before making any inferences