OMG,OMG,OMG!! THE BIG THREAD FOR PEOPLE WHO HATE 1.2!!!!

[Hitokiri]

I've fought plenty of people who were good back in 1.1 and they hardly seem different. The fights are just 10 times more interesting, because people get hit more and there are more things that can happen, more possibilities. I will *still* lose to people who are better than me, although thanks to chain-swooping, tele delay, and advanced melee yeah, I do stand more chance because the game relies less on my pitiful 20-30 something FPS. Makes it more fair IMO, things still don't change much regardless though.

There's also no worrying about that stupid LSM and HOW crap, it just doesn't exist anymore. The only reason I hate throwing is because it takes like 30 seconds, it's a huge waste of my time when some loser gets me from behind and does it. But 90% of this crap is being addressed anyway, people just refuse to listen to that.

I don't know what everybody's yammering about with the skill level going down, I've seen plenty of good 1.1 people cream all over servers just as good as they used to. If you've gotten worse it just means you didn't learn the new system. I bet 95% of the people who are *****ing couldn't do a 3-hit combo in a serious fight anyway (in 1.1), so be thankful you can do a 2-hit, practically for free, now.

Don't get disheartened Joe. For every ungrateful jackwipe there are 50 grateful fans, and you're doing a service to them. Getting complaints is part of the package I guess.

 

[VeTaNaToR]

ok ok im sry for maybe sounding harsh but... its just some guys who were goosd back in 1.1 are just whining soooo much when you use more advance tecniks than just swooping hit ... not all but some and this was eddressed to those and yes there may be a few ungratefull fans but id say there is a overwhelming ammount of gratefull dfans whod love to see that patch out and thank pcjoe for his hard work.

 

[SoulStriker]

SoulStriker, I'm sorry for referring to you as "some random guy." My school has about 900 Macs linked up to a single T1 line and I really didn't want to spend another 5 minutes loading the page.
The only part of that post that was directed at you was the first sentence

Understandable, what I said was a "spur of the moment" thing.

I would really like to see what you would do in my position.

To be honest, i'm glad i'm not. I have no idea what I would do in your position, which is why I am not.

You said I took everyones suggestions and just kinda lumped them together. How else am I suppose to take them?

Uhh, well. One at a time? Since just about everyone has differing opinions, you can't just lump them together, because its all one giant contirdiction.

If it were me (I dont know how well this would work though), I would try and hold something of an offical poll / thread, so people can officially voice their opinions, and give their suggestions. Different things should be tried, to try and get the best possible result out of the melee system now. I give you great credit for what you and everyone else have done to ESF. Its a huge leap from 1.1, and IMO, in certian areas, you made leaps and bounds for the greater good, and in others, well, lets just say it sagged a bit. The graphics in 1.2 are amazing in comparison to any other ESF version, but the gameplay is not. I agree its different, people need to adapt and that kind of thing, but overall I had more fun playing the alphas, way back when it was about fun, not beating the crap out of as many 'noobs' as you can find. The alphas were all about fun, the betas are all about competition. ESF is heading into the CS form of a game in the way of general (very general) gameplay. Certian people will like that, others will not.

I know once we release it people are going to find new things to complain about.

That is the nature of this community, sad to say. Everyone is always either complaining about it, or defending the dev team from the complaints and *****ing. Some take the middle ground, which I have tried to do, but I find myself making too many complaints.

If someone would fix piccolo in some way, I would be worlds happier

Edit: Just one more little note about the two "sides" thing. I believe most people (including myself) would find it just as easy, maybe even easier to defend the mod than to "attack" it with complaints. This is a great mod, no matter what anyone else says. Any mod that can even make a release these days is a great mod, let alone do what ESF has done

 

[MysticUub]

All the people that complain, saying 1.1 was better...do you realise you can own (from my experience) rougly 80% of esf players atm with simple melee alone (a.k.a 1.1 melee)

this right here is the exact point that im trying to make in my other thread as well...wtf is the point of having an "adv" melee if noone uses it because its absolutley useless....the ONLY thing i saw wrong with the 1.1 melee system was the howing...and what u guys have put in the game as far as the getting knocked back thing...would totally eliminate that element wouldnt it?...i mean jesus...look at this release and look at the 1.1 release...ppl complained...but it was about ONE thing...howing....this version ppl complain about almost EVERY aspect of the system EXCEPT the 1.1 melee system...doesnt that tell u something?...ppl are even saying that u can beat the snot out of everyone with simple melee...i mean for gods sake there are clans that use ONLY simple melee because even with all the stupid combo and tele restrictions it still owns the hell out of the adv melee...

imo...instead of trying to redirect the whole game in one direction...u shoulda just built onto the faults of the system u had in place...for one..it wouldnt have taken a year to finish...and 2...it wouldnt be such a big shift that everyone is *****in about everything..i dont know how many ppl ive talked to that have quit playing because of the new melee system...they would rather the old system with the head on knock back than this one...and not because they get owned...but because its too easy to own ppl....and u guys saying that we are *****ing because we were "the best" at 1.1 is a crock of ****...i can speak for myself and most of my clan when i say i was FAR from the best...but yet i still dont like this system...and neither do a lot of ppl

on the subject of scripting...ive never used scripts...and i never will...but honestly...the only thing that could be scripted effectively is teleport....and really...there is no offensive usage of teleports scripts...honestly...how many times were u swooping around and able to stop...square someone perfectly into your sites...and hit the button and go across the map and smack them?...chances are NONE....the only ppl that complained about tele scripts were the howers that sat back and waited for ppl to swoop...and those ppl deserved to be smacked from across a map...the only time it would be able to be used is to get away quickly...and even then their ki would be gone...so they are pretty much screwed right?....so with everything the mass teles had advantages and disadvantages...the only time scripts would have been used effectivley against u is when u let them be used against u

 

[Mystic Snidely]

this version ppl complain about almost EVERY aspect of the system EXCEPT the 1.1 melee system...doesnt that tell u something?...

Not really. Go check out the Natural Selection mod. It's kickass, but every person on the forum complains about a different aspect of the game. That means that it's fairly well balanced.

I think simple melee should take a bit of ki off each time it's used. Why? Well, the system seems to be that you trade ki for accurate hits (like prepunching). This way, combos are a bit more useful to someone without much ki.

 

[Pcjoe]

mp_simplemelee
No one is forcing you or your clan to use the new melee system.

imo...instead of trying to redirect the whole game in one direction...u shoulda just built onto the faults of the system u had in place...

Do you understand what you're saying, MysticUub? Back then we had countless amounts of people complaining that the melee was too simple - "I'm dissapointed, this melee system is just swoop and hit." If we released a version with just fixed head ons all of the vets who own at simple melee would be like "hell yeah", while the rest of the fan base would be "wtfing" us.
I'm also not too keen on deleting my 10,000+ lines of code -_-

I believe most people (including myself) would find it just as easy, maybe even easier to defend the mod than to "attack" it with complaints.

Why would you attack the mod though? What purpose would it serve? Piss the team off?
I like constructive criticism. I don't like people randomly saying the melee system sucks, then give me useless suggestions. Like above, no offence MysticUub, but your suggestion is even worse then the melee system we spent a year developing. People HATED beta 1.0-1.1 melee just because it was so simple. It got boring so fast, I couldn't even stand playing it after awhile.
Like I said above, suggestions from vets and other members completly differ. The majority of the vets just want an improved beta 1.1 melee system, while other people wanted something new. We tried to satisfy both crowds by allowing you to use simple + advanced melee, but it seems like that didnt work out too well.

 

[SoulStriker]

Nuts . . . I was hoping you would miss that.

Why would you attack the mod though? What purpose would it serve? Piss the team off?
I like constructive criticism. I don't like people randomly saying the melee system sucks, then give me useless suggestions. Like above, no offence MysticUub, but your suggestion is even worse then the melee system we spent a year developing. People HATED beta 1.0-1.1 melee just because it was so simple. It got boring so fast, I couldn't even stand playing it after awhile.
Like I said above, suggestions from vets and other members completly differ. The majority of the vets just want an improved beta 1.1 melee system, while other people wanted something new. We tried to satisfy both crowds by allowing you to use simple + advanced melee, but it seems like that didnt work out too well.

I used the wrong phrasing of words there, thats not how I really meant it. I was trying to show the "attack / defend" senario that seems to have formed since the 1.2 release. On one side, the "attackers" are the ones that are always complaining about the mod, while the other side, "Defenders" are the ones that constantly stick up for the mod. Like I said, wrong phrasing of words on my part.

1.1 in general did get boring too fast. It was basically a 20 minute game, then you were done, because it was boring. 1.2 has somewhat fixed that, but not enough for it to gain the credit it really deserves. Yes, you can do more, and kill in more ways, but there is still nothing to fight for, other than to become stronger, which does get dull.

IMHO, 1.3 will bring the fix to that, where people will have more to fight for than just to fight. They will want to fight to get to the highest level of transformation, which will make the games longer, but still, its not a perminant fix.

Something has to be done to make the game more entertaining for longer. I agree that on the first day I had ESF 1.2, I played it for 5 hours, straight, no breaking. I was fused to my computer. But now, Its almost the same as 1.1, its a 30 minute game, maybe an hour if someone interesting lands in my server. I really think that adding new game modes would help this out. Darktooth's thread has some nice ideas, and Shadows CTDB concept was amazingly well thought out. I think that if you add some new game modes, it would make the game much more entertaining, and give people more to play for than just to become the strongest. noobs don't want that, because they know they can't become the 'strongest'. They want something they can achieve, and play for.

 

[Pcjoe]

Something has to be done to make the game more entertaining for longer. I agree that on the first day I had ESF 1.2, I played it for 5 hours, straight, no breaking. I was fused to my computer. But now, Its almost the same as 1.1, its a 30 minute game, maybe an hour if someone interesting lands in my server. I really think that adding new game modes would help this out. Darktooth's thread has some nice ideas, and Shadows CTDB concept was amazingly well thought out. I think that if you add some new game modes, it would make the game much more entertaining, and give people more to play for than just to become the strongest. noobs don't want that, because they know they can't become the 'strongest'. They want something they can achieve, and play for.

I see... You're a good guy SoulStriker ^_^. Some new gameplay modes would probably help out a lot. I guess I'll be helping harSens out with the gameplay modes when we start doing them.

 

[SoulStriker]

O_O!

Holy crap. You saw it here first, Joe called me a "good guy". :laff:

Well, I really think Shadows CTDB suggestion should at least be given serious thought by the ESF team. He put alot of good time and effort into this gamemode, and I think it deserves consideration at the very least.

http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?t=39585

I'm a good guy! :fight:

 

[Smith|]

Well he doesn't touch you like he touches me =0.

On a serious note...

I'd like to see some new modes, like a slight RPG mode.

The reason DBZ was so addictive was because there was always someone more powerful and new stuff for you to watch. It was repetitive but addictive at the same time.

 

[MysticUub]

Scripters no longer prevail, stop crying about it, get over it, it's going to stay that way. The most you can hope for is a small reduction in the delay between teleports but even that is unlikely considering how fast you can still teleport if you know what you're doing. If you don't, and you slam keys, of course you'll be slamming yourself with the illusion that that you can't teleport quickly, so don't slam keys.

lmfao...u ppl like to blame scripters exploiters whatever u wanna call em for the tele problems in 1.1....when will u ppl realize that even if someone had a tele script (which was rare..most of the time it was a mouse wheel) if they used it and missed...they were f***d...they had no ki left and therefore couldnt fight back....the ONLY ppl that *****ed about tele being "spammed" "abused" or whatever the hell u wanna call it...were the ppl that were exploiting the ki system and sat there waiting for the other person to swoop..and in that case they deserve to be smacked in the face from across the map...and what about the ppl (like me because i have tele on my mouse because its a 5 button) who could acctually tele close to that speed without a mouse wheel or tele script?...wouldnt u call that skill instead of going "OMFG SCRIPTER LAMER EXPLOIT NOOB!!1one"

instead of us facing that it wont change back...y dont u face the fact that it was your fault that u got hit with the "script" in the first place...face the fact that because u sat there long enuff for them to line up the shot...u got hit for it...dont tell us to stop complaining about something that we used as an "exploit" as u called it to get around ppl that used an even more common exploit in the howing system.... :\

*edit after reading joes posts*
dude trust me...i understand what its like working hard on a mod...im helping develope one myself...and i dont expect u to delete your code by any means...i just want to see the simple melee more expanded instead of restricted....its like u said...all the vets want the old melee because they like it..and all the noobs want the new because its all they know and its easier for them...so y not make two diff game modes like NS?...its been suggested several times and that would satisfy everyone here....the adv ppl would have their adv melee and the vets would have their simple melee with all the fixes that came with 1.2...i (as well as everyone else im sure) would love to come to a compromise and have everyone happy about the game...and im sure that if the two modes were split...ppl would be more proned to play the other just for a change in scenery if anything...i know when i play combat ns..then go play strat ns its like playin a whole diff game...and its refreshing...then when i go back to combat its fun again...maybe that combined with the new game modes like above is whats needed to bring everyone around...

 

[Pcjoe]

That's what the mp_simplemelee cvar is for, it enables/disables advanced melee.

 

[Zilea]

The only thing i have to say is that if you like 1.1 Melee you've got serious problems: first off to begin that it was incredibly limited, with nothijng to really do but kick away, making it very primitive-like, and it was too solely based on who could teleport faster more than anything else.

Second, the advanced melee was put in to give the melee some variations, and personally, the basic 1.1 melee was so boring i couldnt play more than 10 minutes.

In response to mysticuub: By no means was basic melee good for vets and bad for newbs, i myself am a vet and i consider myself within the top 15% of ESF players, and even I disliked basic melee because it was so limited and boring. Another thing is that advanced melee is good for good players as well, beacuse knowing when to use powerful red hits and when to use medium blue can make things very interesting and difficult for the newbie, especially if you're good at combos.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

lmfao...u ppl like to blame scripters exploiters whatever u wanna call em for the tele problems in 1.1....when will u ppl realize that even if someone had a tele script (which was rare..most of the time it was a mouse wheel) if they used it and missed...they were f***d...they had no ki left and therefore couldnt fight back....the ONLY ppl that *****ed about tele being "spammed" "abused" or whatever the hell u wanna call it...were the ppl that were exploiting the ki system and sat there waiting for the other person to swoop..and in that case they deserve to be smacked in the face from across the map...and what about the ppl (like me because i have tele on my mouse because its a 5 button) who could acctually tele close to that speed without a mouse wheel or tele script?...wouldnt u call that skill instead of going "OMFG SCRIPTER LAMER EXPLOIT NOOB!!1one"

instead of us facing that it wont change back...y dont u face the fact that it was your fault that u got hit with the "script" in the first place...face the fact that because u sat there long enuff for them to line up the shot...u got hit for it...dont tell us to stop complaining about something that we used as an "exploit" as u called it to get around ppl that used an even more common exploit in the howing system.... :\

You're not making any sense. If a total retard was using a melee script then yeah, you'd have sit down and tie your shoes to get hit, but if somebody decent was using it, particularly if they were transformed, they could easily hit you twice in a row from across the map. "It's your fault you got hit by an exploit that was never intended to be in the game in the first place" isn't an argument.

 

[MysticUub]

lmao...ok dude whatever...u win

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

First and foremost I should say, that last post responding to me was bordering on rude, Soul. The reason being you were under the impression that it was aimed at you; well, it wasn't. It was aimed in general at all of the various degrees and propagators of *****ery in the thread and in general.

Let Joe and the team make the game. We play. That's how it's supposed to work. If you've got a suggestion to make for an addition or a change, fine...but we shouldn't make them because we don't like the game or how it works. Too many people do that.

If it were me (I dont know how well this would work though), I would try and hold something of an offical poll / thread, so people can officially voice their opinions, and give their suggestions. Different things should be tried, to try and get the best possible result out of the melee system now.

I don't know if you know this, Soul. Not to be a tool, or anything. But you ARE "just some random guy." The reason is simple: This is Joe and the team's game. THEY make it. We're not here to **** with it, we're here to play it. Suffice to say, making a poll like you suggest would cause innumerable amounts of stupidity. Look around you; we have people in this thread who can't write a full sentence trying to tell the team how to code and design their game. You want to leave the decisions of the content up to them entirely?

And for what it's worth, Joe isn't our slave, none of the team is...nor do we have some inalienable right to tell the guy his work is **** because we don't like it. I have a degree in interface and multimedia design; I ask the nay sayers, what are YOUR credentials? What gives any of us the right to spit on this game, when really it is a gift? I was raised without much of a sense of either but I subsequently have developed a strong sense of pride and respect for others. It's disrespectful and rude and totally derailing to any sense of accomplishment, which is the only payoff that these guys get.

Pride. Pride at their talent, pride that they are making people happy. Have you ever done something, and seen true joy on anyone's face because of it? Maybe you played a song at some show with your band, but no, I'm not talking about those kids who freak and go nuts while you play. I'm talking about the quiet kid who sits in the back, and while you're packing up your ****, he comes up to you and tells you that your music struck a chord in him. I'm talking about people looking at a picture you drew and being enthralled at the level of detail; I'm talking about people taking something you built and making it a household everyday thing. To bring true enjoyment to people feels damn good; to make people happy is something that any human being alive can enjoy.

This game, no matter what you want to say, is a gift. And the greatest kind of gift--one from selfless strangers, for the benefits of we, the unwitting masses. If you don't like things about the game that's fine...but would you give back a gift that someone gave to you, after they spent five years of their life making it for you, pouring hard work and sacrificing their own personal wants and desires to do it for you, on nothing but the selfless desire to bring enjoyment and happiness to you... and then you'd take it and say, "dude, this thing ****ing sucks. Take it back and fix it, ass" ?

To me...that is the utmost in disrespect, totally spitting in the face of such a great act of blind kindness.

The ironic thing is that I think a lot of us, were we to really think about it, might find that ESF, this gift from some guys who had some free time on their hands a few years back...might even be the most selfless gift they've ever been given. I know it is for me. Maybe it's cause of how I grew up--or the fact that I AM grown up, actually--but the fact is, I didn't get a lot of stuff. I didn't get a lot of selfless gifts. I also didn't get toys and computers and internet connections shoved down my throat when I was 13 either. There was no magic jack in the wall we could plug our keyboards into, to go act like bigshots without consequence, either...for what it's worth.

The game is the game, people. Just because it's a mod and we're close to the developers doesn't change things, or at least it shouldn't. The community shouldn't be voting on all the features...Joe and the guys aren't our servants to command. This IS the new melee system. The teleport HAS a delay. THESE are the characters in the game. We as players adapt to these things, and we as players have to find enjoyment in the game. These guys are not our slaves, and we aren't in charge of this game...they are. And they are giving it to us out of the kindness of their hearts.

I think it's really simple. If you don't like Unreal Tournament, do you write to Cliff Bleszinski and tell him how stupid he is because he decided to take the Ripper out for UT2k3 and 2k4...? No. Why? Cause they're a real company? Cause they're a group that gets paid? No, it's because you have no right to and you damn well know it (and besides, they'd ignore you anyway). There's no reason we should treat the esf team like a bunch of...incompetent sweatshop grunts who just "don't get it." If anything, there's only two phrases we should hear out of people when it comes to the new mod versions:

The people who like it should say "Thank you."

The people who don't, should say "Goodbye."

I give you great credit for what you and everyone else have done to ESF. Its a huge leap from 1.1, and IMO, in certian areas, you made leaps and bounds for the greater good, and in others, well, lets just say it sagged a bit.

No. it is all better because it has all been added to. Whether you like it or not is irrelevent, whether you think it's your favorite version or not is irrelevent. They busted their asses for a year on this release; like I said, it's either "Thank you" or "goodbye."

The graphics in 1.2 are amazing in comparison to any other ESF version, but the gameplay is not.

No, it is all amazing. It's certainly more than any of us could do, number one...and number two, it is far and away one of the best constructed mods I've ever played.

The alphas were all about fun, the betas are all about competition.

Irrelevant; that isn't the team's fault. It's the community. It's not their fault that a bunch of ungrateful tools play their game.

ESF is heading into the CS form of a game in the way of general (very general) gameplay. Certian people will like that, others will not.

If you break down every decision you make in your life, it is eventually presumed that you can reach a very simple binary decision. Do or die, in or out, yes or no. It's time to decide people.

So I say. Are you going to show support, or are you going to trumpet off at these poor guys in spouts of ungrateful disdain? Are you going to show respect for the gift that this game is, or are you going to shoot it down because of some speed of some feature that takes all of a quarter-second in the full scale of gameplay?

Do, or die?

Yes or no?

In fact, let's leave it in the simplest terms possible:

Are you in, or are you out?

In the end, that's what it comes down to. Just ask yourself sometime...are you with us...are you really a part of this community...

Are you in, or are you out?

'Nuff said.

 

[MysticUub]

*claps* yay for preacher dan....now that ur off your soap box lemme point a few things..

1.) u cotradicted yourself with this statement "If you've got a suggestion to make for an addition or a change, fine...but we shouldn't make them because we don't like the game or how it works"...wtf is a suggestion for?....if u like something u arent gonna make a suggestion for it to be changed...

2.) just because u have some degree in something or other...doesnt give u any more clout than anyone else here...so where do u get off lecturing everyone on how to act...and dont say cause ur grown up cause ur only 2 years older than me...and are FAR from being "grown up"..whatever that means to u

3.) i (as well as many MANY other ppl that play this game) have the utmost respect for the team.....i realize that all this was selfless acts of kindness in giving time to make a FREE game that everyone can play..i mean for gods sake im acctually involved with a mod so i know how it is...but u also have to remember that they ASK for our input...if they didnt want us to say anything...they should say so...they should close the suggestion forum...the reason y everyone feels so close to the team is because the acctually value the FANS input and dont just make the game the way they think it should be made and say **** everyone else....but half the time we dont like saying how we feel about the game because we feel bad for going against something that was worked so hard on...that and then there are ppl like u and sonic boyster that shove it down our throats and would rather us go die in some ****hole than listen to the community...u arent on the team...dont speak for them...if they dont want to change adv melee or whatever is being suggested...let THEM say so...u ppl dont have any more say over what goes into the game than me or anyone else here does...when it all comes down to it...they either take the suggestions or leave em...thats all...no biggie

4.) booo hooo...cry me a river cause u didnt get a great childhood....neither did i...u dont see me complaining about it...

5.) take your own advice...if u dont like the community...leave...noones forcing u to stay here....dont give ppl altimatums when u cant do **** about it...this community is built on ppl that have differences of opinion...do u honestly think...that esf would still be around today if there werent fans like us that acctually care enuff about the game to wanna see it at the best it can be?...do u honestly think..that esf would be one of the TOP 5 RANKED MODS ON THE PLANET...if the fans werent here making suggestions...like many many ppl have said...this game is only in the beta stage...they have testers...but really..this whole community is a team full of beta testers...we play the game at its most extreme and come back with our input on what we think needs to be changed...weather or not the team takes it is up to them...

-sigh- thats all for me...im tired of typing...and it would probably be best if someone closes this b4 it gets outta hand

 

[SouLTeRRoR]

Seriously, a mod starts out on the team's idea's, and most ask some friends and fans for some input for there mod. Now if the team would of never had these input's. This would be a totaly diff game, and chances r, probaly still wouldn't exist. I use to be the co-leader for MAG. So don't start thinking I'm just talking out of my ass. I know how it is. I have my share of mod team life. Most mods die becuse of lack of fans. So this game is losing it's older fan club which seems to be fine cuse they have all these nubs that will just kill the game a patch or 2 from now.

 

[bobing]

Just a thought.

Maybe all you people who have spent no time what so ever actually
doing any work on this protect, yet intent on discouraging it in any manner,
should make your own mod, With your own ideas, then release it and
prove to everyone you do know what your talking about.

Otherwise anything you do present as an argument is biasd
and ill-informed.

my 2c

 

[MysticUub]

well even if we go and make our own mod...its still going to be biased to what we beleive a mod should be....thats not the point...of course you're going to be biased towards your own opinion/idea...thats y its yours..because u think its right...and we arent discouraging the mod at all like some ppl try to make it out to be...we just want it to be the best experience for EVERYONE involved in playing...not just noobs...not just vets...EVERYONE...we arent *****ing because we dont like change...we arent *****ing because we get "owned" at the game...we are trying to suggest ways for it to be better the way WE view it...and if ppl agree they agree...but for some reason...and this is more prevalent in this community more than any other ive ever been a part of...if u go against something someone likes they like to get up and make u feel like a peice of **** thats trying to run how everything goes instead of acctually looking at the suggestion for what it is...a suggestion...and then they start with the personal attacks and thats when it turns into a forum wide arguement instead of it just being a suggestion and weather or not ppl agree with it...