OMG,OMG,OMG!! THE BIG THREAD FOR PEOPLE WHO HATE 1.2!!!!

[SoulStriker]

Before you complain about the game please read my dev journal, we fixed a lot of those bugs ( including limiting throwing to 6-8 prepunches ).

First off, I'm not "some random guy". If you don't wanna look them up, don't put in anything for the name.
Secondly, the part of my post you quoted had nothing to do with a complaint, except the fact that you have no KI after a throw, which hasn't been "fixed" from what I have been told, rather worsened, because it takes more KI in the patch than it does now, not to mention you can't do as many prepunches. The only advantage I read for throwing now is that its going to be faster, but at the cost of less prepunches, and even more KI.

Second, you guys completly contradict yourselves. You say you hate randoms and you want us to remove it, but then you say it's too easy to block moves. What the hell do you want us to do about it? Implement some magical system that takes skill to block, but wont agrivate people when they miss it?

I hate randoms at certian times. I hate them the most during 'melee struggles', because I either get none, or I get like 5. I don't mind them nearly as much during a melee combo, because chances are the guy had to use a few powerful hits to get a mutli in, so I know he actually had to sacrifice something (most of the time) to get that multi.

We removed targeting since people said it sucked, you could never fight people since you couldnt target... We remove it and you *****.

It did suck. 1.2 Melee is superior. The suggestion that was made (if you read it properly) was merely saying you should add it back in, only so people could keep track of who they were fighting. It wouldn't have any effect on swooping (you could still swoop without targeting), but it would just give people the option to "target" someone, so they dont hit other people by mistake. It would eliminate some of the double teaming.

As for the end of your post (which I will not quote, I don't take kindly to that much cursing, even if it is censored, its still rude and ignorant), Your reading different peoples thoughts and suggestions. Some people want to do more simple combos, others want the linked hits removed. Your taking all the posts, merging them together, and saying its a contridiction. OF COURSE IT IS.

Yea, i'm done again. I primarily went after that post because it has a crapload of cursing, and you called me "some random guy". -_- . . .

 

[Scruff]

No, he's saying the public is split into two groups, those for something, and those against it. Usually, the same people completley change their opinions after they've said it. He isn't saying it's the one person saying those things. He's talking about the General public at the end, not you.

 

[Mystic Snidely]

Not for nothing, but...if the beam is that close to you that the only way you can escape it is by a bound teleport script, then you deserve to die. You should've gotten the **** out of there when you saw the damn thing coming! Now that we can spin the camera during almost every move worth mentioning, there's not much of an excuse about getting beam-ambushed anymore. They are huge glowing brightly colored sperms of death and destruction--how do you miss them until that ABSOLUTE last second? Don't blame the game because you're not being attentive to your surroundings. Besides--everyone's got to die sometime.

It's easy to see a kame or a final flash. However, big bangs and (to a lesser degree) finishing busters and earth spirit bombs aren't that easy to pick out. They also move at quite a pace.

I was talking about when you don't see it coming and you're entangled in melee. It's simply not always possible to detect someone. Yes, rotating the camera helps, but if they're high above you (or, to a lesser degree, far below you) there's not much chance of seeing them. I'm talking when you're in combat with at least one other person - you don't have time to do a thorough 360 degree scan. The scanner is nice, but has a limited range.

Besides, when the combatants separate, there's a slight pause - if it comes down then, there's no escape. (As I supposed and Cuc confirmed, this is being fixed in the patch anyway.)

All that aside...when I tap the teleport key three times, the delay is so miniscule that I don't even notice it. You are aware that the delay is like, 1/10000000000th of a nanosecond, right? It's only there to prevent the scripting, not because they thought it should be harder and "slower" to teleport. Besides, I'm pretty sure you teleport further in this version anyhow.

How on earth do you become that reliant on a script trick that you can't defend yourself in the normal game anymore?

Are you directing this at me? I don't think there's anything wrong with the teleport system. If anything, it doesn't use up enough ki, considering how helpful it is.

If you were actually supporting my argument, I take it back.

 

[martinfalch]

Hmm judging from soulstrikers posts hes one of the only ones with critics who has some concrete to say and says it in a nice and calm way. Respect for that, and i dont think pcjoe wanted to hang u specificly up, as said he just ment in general..
But seriously, think about it, working on something with all your spririt and great intensity in like what? 1-1,5 year ? and then getting all this **** smashed into their heads - no solutions from the mainpart, just whine whine whine... Id get pretty pissed off as well

 

[Smith|]

All that aside...when I tap the teleport key three times, the delay is so miniscule that I don't even notice it. You are aware that the delay is like, 1/10000000000th of a nanosecond, right? It's only there to prevent the scripting, not because they thought it should be harder and "slower" to teleport. Besides, I'm pretty sure you teleport further in this version anyhow.

How on earth do you become that reliant on a script trick that you can't defend yourself in the normal game anymore?

It definitely feels like more than a nano second.

If I'm pushing it to do a teleport hit, sometimes I have to push it 3 times just to get a second teleport.

It may be lag, but I can definitely feel the "1/10000000000th of a nanosecond."

 

[martinfalch]

Hm i think alot of the gameexperience is lowered when playing over the internet on others servers with a bit of lag.. Personally what i do is I play on won, call my server "stable server" and in like 10 minutes ppl join.. Might be a bit selfish as i have zero lagg and they may have a bit more than me but nobody complains and its great gaming and personally i cant feel the 1/100000000 part of a nanosecond At least not in any kind of annoying way.

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

1.) As far as PcJoe, a talented coder whose name is known throughout the forum, and who is one of the highest most important members of the team who created this game, and one of the hardest workers on the team itself...yeah, any of us who aimlessly criticizes his abilities deserves to be labelled as "just some guy." They INVENTED this totally new melee system because they felt that the old one was weak and boring in the long term big picture. People need to have some respect and learn the game before they tell the poor guy he hasn't the slightest idea what he's doing...ESPECIALLY when there are CVARS for almost EVERY SINGLE THING they've complained about (throw time, prepunches, delays between combo hits, combo charge time...).

The other thing to keep in mind is, hey--guess what? ESF 1.2 is not an extension of ESF 1.1. Or any other version. We have to approach it like this is a whole new game. We can't complain that we suck at UT because the AWP in CS isn't nerfed, can we?

People can't get bent because they dominated with exploits in 1.1; they can't ***** that you can't instantly escape death with a teleport script; they can't ***** that it's a bad game because it's not like the last one.

Every single second I'm on this forum, someone is flame-complaining about something. Have they ever been a part of two players having a good, varied fight, splitting up the tactics nicely? Take the tele-sluts, for example:

They want to piss and moan that your teleport script doesn't work, but then they don't even ATTEMPT any other way to escape the beam blasts...that you can see a mile away anyway. If it's that close, then ****ing BLOCK IT, for christ's sake, and do the server PL average a favor with a good block struggle. Hell, thanks to crushing damage, you can throw it back a lot of times even if you're up against the wall. Does anyone ever think of that? Probably not--it requires not being a wimp.

There are plenty of issues in the gameplay worth addressing in a calm, civilized, and constructive manner. For instance, I think that Gohan and Trunks' transform levels being so much lower than everyone else's is preposterous. Ever fight a 3mill SSJ Trunks in adv. melee when you're a .7mill Vegeta? I'll be damned if you see more than three normal arrows half the time. And you can't use your boost during things like advanced melee or throws, I'd like to see that change since power level is so relevant to both. But no one talks about that. No, there's one thing that every complaint on the forum--even one of the two I just made above--has in common:

Most people are complaining because they're NOT WINNING ANYMORE. And they're not winning anymore because they can't adapt. Well, guess what? I was never a winner in the first place. I've said it ten million times; I've had WAY more fun in an even paced fight where I lose, then in an uneven one where I break some poor kid's ass open with my boot. When I make a suggestion it's because I have an idea that might enhance the experience of gameplay for us all--not because it will make me have an easier time of winning!!

I mean, come on. Guess what? This is ****ing Dragonball Z, guys, not Ring Around the God Damned Rosie. Ashes, Ashes, YOU fall down, I stay up. This is supposed to be, at base level, a simulation of mortal combat between the universe's strongest warriors, wielders of earth shattering powers of aggression. This isn't Counter****e; we aren't here to play for a week trying to find the easiest-to-use-but-most-effective tactic and ride that BS train to greatness. We're here to compete HONORABLY AND ENJOYABLY!

For people who ***** about trans-killing: don't ever do a 1.1 combo. "It's not like the show" to show such dishonor as hitting an enemy fifty times when he's rendered helpless, is it?

For people who ***** about teleporting: Guess what? Nine times out of ten, the Z fighters grab that beam by the balls and throw it somewhere the hell else. Try it sometime.

And for all the people who complain about the melee: Christ, there's not even anything worth saying other than quit complaining and DEAL WITH IT.

It's survival of the fittest. The point of the damned game is to fight, to gain power so that you can fight some more. To be the strongest fighter in the server, that's our god damn goal. Winning all the time is irrelevant to that; it comes second. Being a good player--a good WARRIOR--comes first. Winning comes later.

Adapting is a part of human evolution. You're either going to adapt to 1.2 and whatever other decisions the team makes, or you're going to die. And if people come down to my AlphaForce listen server someday and pull any of that whiny crap, I'll be sure to do my best to make them die over. and over. Again.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Pride, I agree with everything you say, except for the part about being beam ambushed, because it still can happen. You still have the people who charge up a beam, and fire it at two people in an advanced melee struggle, and if they're lucky, detonate it <i>just</i> as the melee struggle is ending, nothing you can do in this situation but die, and kick some ass after you respawn.

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

Well, you are right about that, Prime. Personally I die a lot from beams hitting me while I am engaged in what is usually a really nice one on one fight. Yeah it's annoying but like you said, I just go break the kid's head in and call it even. There's not much that I find as thrilling as maneuvering around a beamer's blast that I've just caught sight of, and prepunching the snot out of him.

But it also should be understood that we all do this. If you start charging up a beam while not engaged in combat, unless you fire it at someone who is obviously coming to battle you, chances are you are interrupting someone else's fight. No one thinks of it that way.

It's the Half-Life kids, man...that's what it is. You know, every time I blockstruggle--cause I'm like, the only person on earth who does that anymore--there is some kid shooting ki blasts or beams at me, in futile hope that he can kill me while I'm helpless. When I'm locked in a melee combo, the same thing happens. It's sad, really.

No one knows how to have fun anymore.

 

[SCIxX]

I actually think I had most fun in alpha.
The maps were small but that didn't bother me to much, it was cool, bigass explosions wich looked very cool, amazing high KI so you wouldn't run out fast, wich leaded to giant powerstruggles wich were kickass.
Haaaa... those were the days.

 

[Mystic Snidely]

Incidently, you're not meant to rely on combos anyway. Noone seems to have mentioned this, but unlike most of the other melee attacks, combos cost no ki to perform. 11 prepunches eat up ki, as does (or will) throwing, and 1.1 knockback requires a teleport to do decent damage. You can get four potential heavy hits in, and that's a good amount of potential damage.

So that's the upside. Low ki cost, high potential damage.

I think the only thing I'd change in 1.2 melee is the attacker recieving damage for doing 12 prepunches. I think both fighters should get knocked back, but the attacker shouldn't be punished for just prepunching away.

 

[Cold Steel]

pcjoe, true, true... i understand you and you are very right...

ya read it ppl?? next time, think better on your ideas before starting a new thread (that's my opinion)... forums aren't just chating you know...

If ya want to suck up then go to www.my_head_up_your_arse.com

 

[Smith|]

For people who ***** about teleporting: Guess what? Nine times out of ten, the Z fighters grab that beam by the balls and throw it somewhere the hell else. Try it sometime.

I hope that wasn't directed at me. I'm not *****ing about teleporting, just found it strange that you don't even feel the delay. Purhaps you're a slow fighter and don't use teleporting as part of your fighting routines? (sp?)

 

[NightShade]

Randoms are for a reason. Picture a game without randoms. adv melee would be worthless.

With beams i think some of the splash dmg should get absorb by ki if you block.

instead of target like i said just have the last person you hit highlighted that way you know who your target was in a big fight.


You guys Might or might not agree with this but. I think one of the major downsides is not the melee system itself. Since melee takes longer and more skill. (YES more skill. all the fussing about it proves that) You should gain Powerlevel faster. How many times have you wanted to play vegeta on a server and work your ass off fighting super gohans and gokus when you get enough pl charge a final flash and bam map change. This happens way to much on many servers. So imo a new power system is needed.

Right Now i go to a server and see how many gohans? Making it hard for me to play another char cause of the slow pl gaining and also fact that gohan could throw me so very easy. When was the last time any of you got a perfect trans? Yes this could change with servers. Then again by the time i get enough pl with vegeta or buu or krillan map gets boring. Or people have a evil score cause they been super near the start

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

People still can't read English for some reason...

Teleportation delay is .15 seconds. Just don't click as fast as you humanly can and it wont feel like it's lagging. You can still teleport 7 times in one second. That is including the initial buttom press at 0.0 seconds.

There is a cvar for faster melee speeds. Last time I'll say it, just to make sure people are still understanding this. It will be a standard cvar option at server creation after the patch.

Throwing costs ki and that's it. Your opponent has no way of hurting you during or immediately after a throw unless you do something really stupid, like throw him when you're half way out of ki and under his PL. Speed and cost are being inreased because of this. Who cares if you don't have any ki left after at throw? It's free damage, and if you know what you're doing you can hit him with a ki blast after that and still recharge all the way up to full energy before he gets back to you. That's why the cost was increased. Don't throw someone when you're being double teamed if you're scared of the other guy getting you, use simple melee.

Again, hopefully for the last time, you can no longer be killed by beams coming right out of melee. You are immune for up to 1 second after you recover from the energy attacks of *outsiders* and this does *not* mean you can't hit each other with a ki blast within that 1 second. It's supposed to be enough time to get out of the way if you see a beam coming, or at least try. Keep an eye on your surroundings so as not to get your ass whooped by incomming beams after your second is up.

Scripters no longer prevail, stop crying about it, get over it, it's going to stay that way. The most you can hope for is a small reduction in the delay between teleports but even that is unlikely considering how fast you can still teleport if you know what you're doing. If you don't, and you slam keys, of course you'll be slamming yourself with the illusion that that you can't teleport quickly, so don't slam keys.

 

[NightShade]

^^^i agree with everything you said. My only beef is with ki cost is gohan and trunks cause of the 1 mil super making them throw kings at start.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

Ok, last note -> Remember PL gain is boosted significantly with the patch too. What's that mean? Gohan and Trunks wont be kings for very long.

 

[SoulStriker]

*sigh*

One more go shall we?

1.) As far as PcJoe, a talented coder whose name is known throughout the forum, and who is one of the highest most important members of the team who created this game, and one of the hardest workers on the team itself...yeah, any of us who aimlessly criticizes his abilities deserves to be labelled as "just some guy." They INVENTED this totally new melee system because they felt that the old one was weak and boring in the long term big picture. People need to have some respect and learn the game before they tell the poor guy he hasn't the slightest idea what he's doing...ESPECIALLY when there are CVARS for almost EVERY SINGLE THING they've complained about (throw time, prepunches, delays between combo hits, combo charge time...).

Not once, have I EVER criticized Joe's ability to code. I can't code a damn word, let alone code this great of a melee system. I would never say "Joe can't code" and whatnot. Trust me, if anyone calls you "just some guy", it does feel insulting. I have yet to disrespect the team in any way. All I have done is publically said (which is my RIGHT by the way) what I personally FEEL is wrong with the system. I have yet to complain about anything that a cvar can fix. If a cvar can fix something that I have a problem with (teleport delays, lack of ki, piccolo being a pussy), I would have used them ages ago.

People can't get bent because they dominated with exploits in 1.1; they can't ***** that you can't instantly escape death with a teleport script; they can't ***** that it's a bad game because it's not like the last one.

News Flash: Like I said before, I dont use an 'exploit'. I used something called a BUTTON. I can feel the delay stopping me, and no, it is not "1/10000000000th of a nanosecond."

They want to piss and moan that your teleport script doesn't work, but then they don't even ATTEMPT any other way to escape the beam blasts...that you can see a mile away anyway. If it's that close, then ****ing BLOCK IT, for christ's sake, and do the server PL average a favor with a good block struggle. Hell, thanks to crushing damage, you can throw it back a lot of times even if you're up against the wall. Does anyone ever think of that? Probably not--it requires not being a wimp.

Don't use teleport scripts, I use a button. I already told you before, the methods you put forth to magically escape death of a beam do not work, unless the beam has yet to be fired. Blocking, well 9 times out of 10 it will kill you, so whats the point? Since beamers usually have higher PL's anyway (fixed in the 1.2.1 patch I know, but I can still moan about it now ), so you go kabloom, and they get more PL. Wow, nice escape there eh? Last time I checked, peopler wern't 'afraid' of things in a game, so they can't really be a 'wimp'.

There are plenty of issues in the gameplay worth addressing in a calm, civilized, and constructive manner. For instance, I think that Gohan and Trunks' transform levels being so much lower than everyone else's is preposterous. Ever fight a 3mill SSJ Trunks in adv. melee when you're a .7mill Vegeta? I'll be damned if you see more than three normal arrows half the time. And you can't use your boost during things like advanced melee or throws, I'd like to see that change since power level is so relevant to both. But no one talks about that. No, there's one thing that every complaint on the forum--even one of the two I just made above--has in common:

Quite true. I never noticed the trunks thing, but I did notice the non turboage in the combos and stuff. I think it would be cool to see someone start attacking, then hit the turbo and attack faster and harder. It would just look cool if nothing else.

Most people are complaining because they're NOT WINNING ANYMORE. And they're not winning anymore because they can't adapt. Well, guess what? I was never a winner in the first place. I've said it ten million times; I've had WAY more fun in an even paced fight where I lose, then in an uneven one where I break some poor kid's ass open with my boot. When I make a suggestion it's because I have an idea that might enhance the experience of gameplay for us all--not because it will make me have an easier time of winning!!

Well, at least someone is somewhat like me. I never really was a 'winner' in 1.1. I won a few times, but I had more fun starting people off, then having them come back two weeks later and beating my ass from one end of the map to the other. That and having 'even' fights, where it goes on for quite some time. Its more exciting if your on the lower end of one of those too, where your opponent is better, but not *that* much better, so you have a good fight, but you loose anyway. It makes you try harder. I find this alot in 1.2 too, but I havn't found many good partners. Phatslugga schooled me a few days after 1.2 was released, and I kicked the snot out of Kami Sama the day of the release, only to have him come back a few days later and smoke me. Meh, its the cycle. I'v never been 'great' at computer games, I prefer to have fun during them than to beat the crap out of some "newb".

I mean, come on. Guess what? This is ****ing Dragonball Z, guys, not Ring Around the God Damned Rosie. Ashes, Ashes, YOU fall down, I stay up. This is supposed to be, at base level, a simulation of mortal combat between the universe's strongest warriors, wielders of earth shattering powers of aggression. This isn't Counter****e; we aren't here to play for a week trying to find the easiest-to-use-but-most-effective tactic and ride that BS train to greatness. We're here to compete HONORABLY AND ENJOYABLY!

All the way my man. All the way . . .

For people who ***** about teleporting: Guess what? Nine times out of ten, the Z fighters grab that beam by the balls and throw it somewhere the hell else. Try it sometime.

If ESF were a perfect represenation of "DBZ", than yes, this would be quite possible, but the fact is, its not. Therefore, we can't actually do that. To correct you, 9 times out of 10, the Z fighters get their ass blown up, only to come out of it unharmed, and then end up blowing the bad guy to pieces after having milk and cookies, and talking for 5 hours.

I wont even respond to the last two paragraphs, there perfectly true, I have nothing to add in the least.

Hmm judging from soulstrikers posts hes one of the only ones with critics who has some concrete to say and says it in a nice and calm way. Respect for that, and i dont think pcjoe wanted to hang u specificly up, as said he just ment in general..

Thank you good sir, I appreciate someone actually realizing what i'm trying to do in a sense. I know joe meant no offence, it just pissed me off at the time.

I'm done . . . again . . . :tired:

 

[Pcjoe]

SoulStriker, I'm sorry for referring to you as "some random guy." My school has about 900 Macs linked up to a single T1 line and I really didn't want to spend another 5 minutes loading the page.
The only part of that post that was directed at you was the first sentence

Before you complain about the game please read my dev journal, we fixed a lot of those bugs ( including limiting throwing to 6-8 prepunches ).

I'm not sorry about all the cursing though. When you have tons of people personally messaging you DAILY *****ing/whining about the melee system you took a year to develop and constantly telling you to make tiny changes, you can think about calling my ****ing post "rude and ignorant." I would really like to see what you would do in my position.
You said I took everyones suggestions and just kinda lumped them together. How else am I suppose to take them? What should I do about teleporting? Really, apparently after 5 years of this modding **** I still dont get it, tell me what I should do.
People say say randoms are retarded, too many of them come up, and it's annoying. Other people say melee is too easy and you can block everything. So what do you do? Remove the randoms, you'll beable to block everything. If you add more randoms, it agrivates people. Sure, you might think "hey, you just have to..", but what about the other fans that think differently? Do we just ignore them and take one suggestion?What should I do? Implement another non-working suggestion and listen to more *****ing and whining?
At this point I dont even know why I'm bothering on making a patch, I dont even have an urge to work on ESF. I'm trying to finish up my work for the patch, but why the hell should I bother? I know once we release it people are going to find new things to complain about.

Edit: And yeah, like martinfalch said it's not directed at one person. It's moreso my general agrivation from everything that's been happening after release.

 

[VeTaNaToR]

meant to some of the old vets hating this game... and people in general hating it. well... you say the n00bs have the advantage... since they seem to whipe you i guess youre the n00bs now lol, listen some of you were good at the old sucking head on mad goat melee were all you had to do was swoop hit swoop hit its a bit more now and some cant handle the change since they cant use that many functions at once but thats the way it goes the game evolves the greats evolve new generations of greats appear sometime the old ones are pushed aside for the new generations... and ... as it sadly seems to be obius in this case the vets cant handle having to start over again but why shouldnt the less good people have a chance the only problem here is that now noones had more time than others really and you have a chance at countering melee i mean i remember the old days if i meet one of these so called melee vets and blocked some of theyre melee and teleport evaded i was immidiatly accused of block spamming and running but what? was i supposed to do... just let em kill me and thats it if i meleed em they called me a ki whorer cuz i recharged all the time... and again what was i supposed to do... finally i can say this many and i mean really many (im not using names since if you feel offended you prove my point) of the vets weré nothing... the only thing they could manage was winning if they lost or somebody used theyre heads they accused them of cheating of being lame that is the true meaning of nubish and now that melee isnt invincible anymore but countable thay have no exuses wich most cant handle, heck ove been whiped many many times in this game now new and old version lol saiyan pride. but i dont start blaming the system its still fun even tho im not the best. you always complain about wanting good dbz games well face it a good dbz game isnt just target swoop hit target swoop hit its thinking comboing and yes beams aswell i mean why the feck do you think they put beams in this game wait wait i know... cuz they are ment to look at... no! they are meant to use if you want pure melee go play mortal combat or some ****... ive had many opponents using pure beams and they posed no problem at all just need to think a little instead of this one tracket melee tecnik i mean the game is changing either you adept to it or you get pushed down from great to puny and if you cant handle the change and niether the fact that you arent the best anymore theres only one solution... dont play. I really doubt the team will change this game since it is great as it is it is without a doubt the best melee system for a mod or dbz game yet. and i will use this oppertunity to thank pcjoe and the rest of the team for this game wich is without a doubt the best dbz game not mod but best game out there and especially the ginius melee in this game wich is great and realistic.