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[SSJ Shin Carl]

Man Pcjoe this is a suggestion instead of holding down the button for the auto punching how about hitting the button for auto punching, but while your in the auto punching animation the other guy can block your auto punch and return punches? or you both can keep doing a punch block punch block thing.

 

[sub]

That idea is bad though since people would bind it. Better to have it automatic. And i dont like the idea of adding a cvar to change the hit duratatoin and blah blah blah. If you put all those cvars in there, Then each server willbe differetnt and there will be poeple complaining saying somthingl like "You only beat me becuase the hit time was messed up". thats just my oppionion though.

 

[NightSage]

Advanced Melee... Who? Wha? I don't get it! hehehe

The pre punching thing reminds me of............................. dbz legends (I think thats the name) on the psx. So am assuming if 2 foes are pre punching at the same time they appear to be in a sort of melee struggle? (where they through a furry of punches and kicks at each other? )

 

[Pcjoe]

You can think of it like that, in dbz legends you're "locked" in combat with the person. You dont slam them right after the prepunches though

 

[Pcjoe]

That idea is bad though since people would bind it. Better to have it automatic. And i dont like the idea of adding a cvar to change the hit duratatoin and blah blah blah. If you put all those cvars in there, Then each server willbe differetnt and there will be poeple complaining saying somthingl like "You only beat me becuase the hit time was messed up". thats just my oppionion though.

You can't use that excuse, since the hit time is the same for everyone, use the severs techniques against him. And ofcourse, if it becomes THAT bad, we can always remove all the cvars and hard code all the values... We just thought it would be nice to give you guys control over the system.

 

[Dalte89]

What about explosion when knocked into water (big splash) and the ground!


Also what ever happened to the wall jumps?

 

[Darksun]

Intersting Halorin, I have some questions about your ideas:

mouse1 starts what I'll call a 'combo-chain,' and mouse2 will be knockback.

How do you stop a swoop?
Using the 2nd button, what is keeping this from falling into the "swooping around in circles" trap.

A power struggle bar comes up, if the attacked person gets it in their favor, they either start CC'ing themselves

How is this determined? It can't be ki, because then you'll have people complaining about defensive players. (which should be a legitimate style)

I like some of your block/evade ideas, but they should be base more on something you do rather than ki level, or paper rock siccors (chance).
What is the effectiveness of the block/dodge based on? (a street-fighter-esque movement would be cool, but I don't if that fits)

 

[Halorin]

Intersting Halorin, I have some questions about your ideas:


How do you stop a swoop?
Using the 2nd button, what is keeping this from falling into the "swooping around in circles" trap.


How is this determined? It can't be ki, because then you'll have people complaining about defensive players. (which should be a legitimate style)

I like some of your block/evade ideas, but they should be base more on something you do rather than ki level, or paper rock siccors (chance).
What is the effectiveness of the block/dodge based on? (a street-fighter-esque movement would be cool, but I don't if that fits)

Good questions. You see, I didn't really put TOO much planning into it. It was just a blurb that I made for PcJoe when he was answering people's questions. To stop swooping, hmm.. Perhaps whatever your step backward is. It makes sense to me, though it'd be a change from what 1.1 is. You're swooping forward, so you cut your momentum off by moving backward. Maybe it could have a little drift like thing with inertia, also. That'd play into the other thread about bossted swooping.

The circles trap.. My concept kinda took swooping into a not-so-critical aspect of combat in that things could be more close quarters. The biggest advantage with side hits in my concept would be that if you were Combo-Chaining you would be able to get more attacks than say if you did a head on. I was thinking that also, there'd be more or less random times that you'd have to get a maximum number of hits off before the attacked broke through to counter. Like, say if you attack someone head on and you start CC'ing them, one time you'd have maybe 2 seconds to do it, but another time you might only have one. This would keep a player aware of how long they can wail on someone or what have you. I mean, sometimes things happened with luck in DBZ, right? Some things were circumstancial.. Basing something this frequent off ki or PL would do nothing but create more complaints and more name-calling and unbalance.How about this. A fair trade-off would be that if someone went to knockback someone and they dodged it and it was coming from the side, the player dodging would be put in an even better spot to counter for some damage. I'm really open to suggestions in this part.

The main thing I was going for with my concept was that nothing was the end-all be-all best form of attacking, and that there was enough things to do to provide some style and depth to player's fighting. Also that things couldn't be countered and blocked, so the table's could be turned if a player was skilled enough.

The blocking and countering really is more just a rock/paper thing but with no third. That idea was inspired by games like Def Jam Vendetta. There's an effective counter for both grapples and strikes in that game, and neither work for the other. So you can't block a grapple by throwing your arms up, per say. I thought that would work really well in my concept. If you think about the possibilities for countering and dodges and the potential boosted swoop, then melee would start taking on a more strategical feel to it than just trying to bash people into stuff. I think that in itself would start to lessen some of the circles of boredom you might be referring to.


This is a big post, but I hope it helped.

 

[!XxShAdOwxX!]

This melee better be much better than auto punching like the ability to knock heads or slam somone into a mountain or the ground or even ki pushing. I really hope it doesnt suck...ill guess i will wait for the WHOLE outline

Basically the autopunching won't do much damage, that is kinda part of the swoop. Your not gonna go around owning the **** out of people with autopunches . Anyways, sounds good just don't like the charging part, I think that will slow the pace down and make it quite annoying to actually hit people . But overall can't wait for the next phase of the Advanced Melee. Cause the next phase the real stuff begins .

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

Well, as you learn about the next couple phases in advanced melee, you'll see it's kinda hard to fight more then 1 person at a time Ofcourse, we do have those inhuman people who can do things like that ^_^.
If you want one big hit, type in "mp_simplemelee 1", and like magic, you'll have the beta 1.1 melee system

Joe appeases all the fans. Amen. [bows unworthily]

You know guys, it seems stupid in theory...but if you think about it...this is really adding up to the same thing as 1.1 melee, with added animation alongside it.

Think about it--a set of 6-12 quick auto punches causing a stun at 1 or 2 hp a hit, as opposed to one BIG hit that sends you flying at like 15 hp a hit. Really it's going to be different but balance and complaints shouldn't be an issue. Yeah it'll take getting used to, but guess what--Joe's the man, and he put in the old melee cvar like we asked. So...essentially...there is no reason to ***** about the 1.2 melee because you can turn it off.

Once again, thanks to Joe and the team. You are THAT DAMN GOOD.

For what it's worth...if you guys pull this off...we could have the best dragonball Z emulation in a video game ever created. So everyone just relax. The developers are the masters here; I trust them. They've been nothing but phenomenal so far. Let's let them do their jobs. We're players, let's start acting like it.

ALSO: A bit of news...

On ModDB, ESF was number 1 in 4 out of 5 categories!! ROCK ON, ESF TEAM!!!

Here's the log for anyone curious. Heavily edited.

~{ape}~Majin Saiyajin: why auto hitting?
PCJoe: Okay, first, the "prepunches" is setting up for the real melee action
PCJoe: We didnt really care for holding onto secondary fire
~{ape}~Majin Saiyajin: i like being the one who hits.. not.. oh hey look i hit him..
PCJoe: dont thinnk you just sit there and get ****ed up by the enemy
PCJoe: You just dont sit there and take **** like a *****
PCJoe: You can do SOMETHING, but that goes into the next phase of melee
PCJoe: which i cant talk about yet
PCJoe: Prepunches take about 1.2 seconds to throw 6 of them
PCJoe: it takes KI to do prepunches, its fast
PCJoe: and it's just to get the action started
Optional: will there be more keys required for melee now?
PCJoe: No
PCJoe: no extra keys required
PCJoe: we try to make everything as simple + easy as possible
PCJoe: but make it complex
Optional: oh
Optional: will it be like DMZ with punching and kickkin combos?
PCJoe: it will be nothing like dmz
PCJoe: i'll tell you this
PCJoe: when you prepunch, what happens
PCJoe: is that the models are locked
~{ape}~Majin Saiyajin: stunned in other words..
PCJoe: i actually start manipulating the characters bones and place them right ifnront of eachothers
PCJoe: so we can have close melee action
PCJoe: what about stunned?
~{ape}~Majin Saiyajin: that is what u meant no?
PCJoe: Like i said, you have no clue what the "stunned" time is for
~{ape}~Majin Saiyajin: model lock
PCJoe: no, model lock, as in
PCJoe: you know in hl, you put 2 models infront of eachother
PCJoe: not too pretty, certain
PCJoe: i go client side, and place the models onfront of eachother. We're going to hav some pretty complex moves.. For example, i wanted to implement one of friezas moves
PCJoe: you know when he grabbed vegeta with his tail
PCJoe: and whacked the **** out of his back?
PCJoe: we can do stuff like that
-]IoD[- Snow1586: q, the melee
PCJoe: k, you can go next, then Sonic
-]IoD[- Snow1586: first is auto unching
PCJoe: yes
-]IoD[- Snow1586: punching
-]IoD[- Snow1586: thats ALWAYS first or can u skip that
PCJoe: you cant skip it
PCJoe: if you see the next phases
PCJoe: you wont want to skip it
-]IoD[- Snow1586: then does something auto happen?
PCJoe: I cant really elaborate on the next phases
PCJoe: the next phases arnet automated
PCJoe: But i can talk about prepunches
-]IoD[- Snow1586: after auto punching, when thats done, does something else auto happen
PCJoe: is the next phase of melee, which i cant go into
PCJoe: well, it will switch to the next phase of melee
-]IoD[- Snow1586: so after that 1.1 melee goes in somewhat?
PCJoe: no, it's all non-automated
PCJoe: dont even think about 1.1 melee
PCJoe: the only thing it has in common
PCJoe: is the swoop
GMan: you mentioned 'locked models' and such
GMan: now, say, I'm frieza chocking someone with a tail or whatever
GMan: if I can't move, can someone beam the **** out of us?
GMan: blam, kameha. 2 kills.
PCJoe: sorry, i think i worded that wrong
PCJoe: When i said locked, i ment the models have a set offset between eachother
PCJoe: And i can manipulate / attach things to bones
PCJoe: And i can even get the bone positions in code
GMan: but, can we move when these things are happening?
GMan: like if theres a beam
GMan: im doing some combo move
GMan: im like
GMan: oh ****
GMan: gotta get out of the way
GMan: can I?
PCJoe: i think i want to make it so you dont get hurt by outside ****
PCJoe: no, you're locked in a fight with that person
GMan: but in a way thats also cheap
PCJoe: not really
GMan: like transforming is now
GMan: well
GMan: imagine this
PCJoe: you just cant trigger melee whenever
GMan: 3 ppl are chasing you
GMan: you do a combo thing to one guy
GMan: the other 2 cant do anything
PCJoe: ofcourse
PCJoe: but
PCJoe: after you finish your ****
PCJoe: 1) you might loose and then GET ****ed up
PCJoe: 2) you'll be open after all is said and done
PCJoe: and then they can **** you up
PCJoe: If it's a big problem
PCJoe: we can always change it
PCJoe: we had the whole melee system down on paper, so we need to change some stuff
Optional: 1) after the auto punching ****
Optional: can you target what part of the enemy body you want to hit?
Optional: like the head
Optional: or arm?
Sonic the Vampire: That is phase 2 -_-'
PCJoe: *nods*
PCJoe: autpunching is just for stun time
PCJoe: the next phases
PCJoe: get pretty complex
PCJoe: and have a lot of stuff. I'm a new coder, but i dont take months to code in simple **** like that
PCJoe: heh
Sonic the Vampire: Is there any difference between rapidly punching someone in the back or the front?
PCJoe: Atm, no
PCJoe: But, (going to into detail with prepunches)
PCJoe: I think i might make a back prepunch option
PCJoe: but atm, when you get prepunched, you move backwards
PCJoe: lets say you're moving backwards ( by the force of the punches )
PCJoe: and you hit a wall
PCJoe: you'll hit the wall, start playing a new hit animation, and take more damage from the melee punches
GMan: so it looks like ssj2 goku vs majin vegeta.
PCJoe: later i want to add fx with rocks flying out and whatnot
Optional: which will drain FPS :O
PCJoe: not really
PCJoe: only acouple rock particles, like powering up
Sonic the Vampire: Alright. So this stun time you were talking about
Sonic the Vampire: I am just trying to clear up misconceptions that by stunned you don't mean unable to respond to getting hit. You mean more along the lines of being locked into the fight
PCJoe: Since you dont sit there and take their ****
PCJoe: stun time just gives the other guy more time to do his ****
Sonic the Vampire: Stunned is a bad word to use though
PCJoe: yeah, it's kinda deceiving...
GMan: should say
GMan: melee initiation period
PCJoe: tough ****
grOOvy: Ok, I'll just butt in my suggestion: Everything (phase 1+2) works perfectly for me except the damn charging for the melee swoop.
grOOvy: I hate having to wait and charge for the initial swoop.
grOOvy: + making the prepunches secondary click isn't a bad idea either.
grOOvy: Anyway, that's all I had to say.
Sonic the Vampire: You said you can pull up to a certain number of auto punches
Sonic the Vampire: What determines how many punches you throw?
PCJoe: Okay, to swoop, you charge
~{ape}~Majin Saiyajin: well lets hope joe smartens up and gets rid of the whole auto hitting -_-
PCJoe: you stop punching
PCJoe: you can throw 6 punches that do stun time, and a max of 12 punches ( it will just stop melee there if you throw 12 )
PCJoe: when you PRESS fire
PCJoe: it stops it
PCJoe: yeah. IF you're a pussy, you can just do your 12 prepunches ( do very little dmg ) then try to run away

-end-

Woops...Sorry to double post...but that sounds ****ing AWESOME, if you ask me... >:0)

 

[Hibiki]

Basically the autopunching won't do much damage, that is kinda part of the swoop. Your not gonna go around owning the **** out of people with autopunches . Anyways, sounds good just don't like the charging part, I think that will slow the pace down and make it quite annoying to actually hit people . But overall can't wait for the next phase of the Advanced Melee. Cause the next phase the real stuff begins .

really u say that and it MAY sound hard to use but in reality its a very easy system to get used to and a snap to control

i mean its not like it takes 2 hours to charge a swoop and u dont have to charge it up all the way if ur just charging at someone 2 feet away

 

[Darksun]

To stop swooping, hmm.. Perhaps whatever your step backward...

perfect, makes sense to me.

My concept kinda took swooping into a not-so-critical aspect of combat in that things could be more close quarters.

Thats good. I think the swooping/telepoting probably happens too much.. it's kinda dumb. Maybe the teleporting would cost more, or would require specific circumstances= like maybe teleport is the swoop button at a close range or right before a beam hits. It wouldn't move you very far (maybe half the current distance) but at close range, moving that fast is worth it.

I'm still not feeling the paper/rock thing. It's just too random. It would be nice if there were still something that you were required to do that you could get better at, or fits your style. I think Budokai has a good way to go in terms of back & forth in the fights cuz it's simple: basic attacks you can block (but they are weak & require combos), dash hits you can block (it does a guard break, but the move is slightly telegraphed), charged up hit you can't block (but it's slow), It's like the 3 basic attack stratagies with no one being king
Then you can find a way to mix them together where you mgiht be able to chain all 3 styles together in ONE melee for an extended period with both people being equal but different!! (perhapse at the cost of ki, while you are being attacked, you can counter into one of those 3 styles and begin your own chain.)<----whattaya think about those ideas PCjoe?

 

[imported_Mystix]

That doesn't sound all that bad Darksun, just wouldn't go right considering this is HL and not a console game.

None of us (Except ESF team members) have seen 1.2 melee at it's best. Just remember, this is just the start of 1.2 melee, the rest after all of this, just gets better. Maybe this isn't the time to bring up melee ideas, just what should be fixed with the information we have so far.

 

[Destin™]

Trying to make melee better than 1.1 is possible, and if they are trying to do it, then it will be done. I just hope the ignition into melee fighting isn't based on luck, or the first one to get in auto range of melee punches. The bits and pieces I put together about 2nd phase melee is more than enough to make up for anything in 1st phase.

 

[imported_Mystix]

I agree Destin. People shouldn't be able to beat someone with "luck" yet, skill. What do I mean as in skill? I mean being able to understand and use all the advanced melee tactics. Mastering may take time, but once it's been mastered, you shouldn't be easy to beat. Right now in 1.1, you can be the best ESF player out there, but someone can easily hit you as long as they have a little more KI stored in their KI bar then you do. That's not skill, that's taking advantage of something that was supposed to make things easier for different pings.

1.0 - Lower ping wins the game.
1.1 - Higher amounts of KI stored wins the game.
1.2 - Skill and thinking wins the game. (Hopefully)

 

[Hibiki]

i can guarentee luck will play no part in doing well in advanced melee

because yes luck is a sucky way to play

 

[Halorin]

I'd like that, too Darksun, but I don't know how that could be added without throwing in 3 more buttons that would make keyboard uncomfortable, or without making cumbersome circumstancial button presses together to mean different things. I tried to incorporate different strength attacks in my concept, perhaps they could have those qualities you were looking for. I was thinking whatever throw/grab a character would do would definitely be the strongest of attacks, but I also thought it would be appropriate that you at least rough someone up a little bit before you go to it to throw them off guard from a sensical stand-point. The knockback would be something of an offstandish medium. Perhaps rather than having a dodge and block button, the block button would stave off chain combo'ing, but falter after a knockback attempt or two. I thought that would be unskillful, though, but choosing whether or not to try to block or dodge would involve a little luck, unless it was like this. Hitting mouse1 would make you swoop in a certain way, but mouse2 would make you swoop in another. Once the player was close enough, you could see which way they're trying to attack so you could hit the right button. That way it wouldn't be so luck based and more on your hand-eye coordination. How about that Dark?

 

[Mastasurf]

Ok, let me give you guys a couple side comments.

When I designed the melee system I wanted everyone to be able to use it. That ranges from people who ride the short bus, to HPBs, to Bill Gates Jr. Thanks to Joe's anime addiction I have experienced high pings with melee, and it fuctions fine. As for the short bus factor... well... I'll wait until your guys get ahold of beta 1.2 to see how it pulls through :laff: .

A note about autopunching:

Autopuching was designed the way it was to accomplish 3 things.

1. Set up the next stages of melee
2. In short, Idiot proof melee.
Long: Allow less skilled players who can't figure out advanced melee (or RTFM) to still use melee. The damage they inflict will be nowhere near what it would be if the whole system is utilized, but it's better than nothing.
3. Allow people who don't feel like using the full melee system to just "hit and run". This can be considered a weaker version of beta 1.1 melee.

Further notes...

Advanced melee will be interactive for both people, so you'll be to busy to notice being stunned.

-To whoever said we don't have our information together: There are only small pieces missing. Most of them are because we need to see how things work ingame. Also I leave things open ended when they are designed so that we can change them if there is a need.

However, a whole system has been outlined and planned. I already have most of the media ready for the next post... so chill

 

[TCiccarelli]

FÜCK this can some one summerize this thread for me and get back to me lol. im scared of this thread. ::walks away form monitor::

 

[DarktoothDKD]

lol.. damn this is an interesting war going on. you guys have some pretty funny posts. Lets just say this.. once more..

Our melee system can do a lot more than Halorins system of just going in and attacking..

stun time = charging = special stuff

whats this special stuff? attacking? yes.. but what else do we have planned? *secret* :-D