ESF comparison thread

[Rayos]

I have no problem with 1.2. I have been playing since alpha ages and have played each version. Yes the speed of 1.1 gives the game more of a "thrill" if you will but 1.2 gives more of a technique base if you ask me. Everyone talks about doing the 5-6 hit ground comboes, yea you CAN do that and trust me, i HAVE done that. Just because you can do something along those lines does not mean that it SHOULD be done. I prefer 1.2 not just because i am better at it, but it gives more of a strategy to the game. Even with advanced melee, there are strategies with the random arrows and how you should use them. People who face me or Ape niko demus would know this.

This is what i see when i read peoples suggestions


1.1 had better melee
1.2 is too slow


the way i see it

1.1 had too many flaws and glitches that could be abused more than 1.2

1.2 is more of a strategy based game and people get pissed off that they can't do the things they could in 1.1




this is still in BETA...it changes and that is what is going to happen... Get over it



that is my opinion on ESF 1.1 was good 1.2 is better

 

[Carnage the 1]

Indeed, 1.1 is more about speed while 1.2 asks for brainwork. My idea is to combine both into one game. Speeding up 1.2 and altering simple melee is basically all that it takes. We still enjoy ESF or else we wouldn't play it, but our compaints are based on the game becomming boring. Imo it's not fast enough to keep your attention, like a game of chess. Other than that, some things like the insta-kill ground combo ruin the fun and the flow of the game. I could be mistaken but I don't recall anything like that in 1.1. It had it's flaws and exploits, but you didn't die from one attack without being able to move (except for the chaincombos, but it was nearly impossible to keep killing someone with that and it wasn't an exploit). In my eyes, those flaws ruined the game for me.

I don't mind advanced melee, I have nothing against it. It's the simple melee that bothers me (not like you haven't noticed already). Simple melee has gotten alot slower and less exciting. If they are changing it in 1.3, it would be nice to actually inform the community so we can decide if we like it or not, instead of just turning it into a big suprise and hope everyone will enjoy it. In other words, the team should at least give us an impression of what to expect, are they willing to alter it or is this a hopeless cause.

 

[Draylock1]

honestly carnage, i have access to force pit to see which way the direction of this game was going, and i cant say what they are adding but it doesn't sound too promising. i mean, they're trying to get rid of problems that "the advanced people of 1.2 use" with the cool "6 hit combos" that they call them, which really, you roll on the ground and hit you 5 times after being hit down by 1 hit. thats a 6 hit combo. thats what they think. no, thats just ***. and dude, even if 1.2 did have a strategy to get on and play? it really doesn't.. i hate strategy games unless its a clan match, then i'll set up my strategy, but when it comes down to it, fps's are based on your skill and your cooperation with players..

we've all heard and discussed this, 1.1 was basically better. i played for atleast an hour a day not to lose my grip on it, and we had clans, everyone knew who everyone was and how they played and what their stats were, what they did, because people payed more attention to what the hell they were doing. 1.2 is lets swoop to the side and catch them from the side with advanced, or hit them, teleport and hit them again, charge a beam, your life has just went down 80.

i dont care what anyone says really, i really can't stand the melee in this game anymore, and when someone starts to throw me, it just makes you laugh.. unless your in the middle of the map ( not too close to the ground, a building, and the cieling, or uneven terrain) , basically your ****ed. ehh.. ramble ramble.. bye

i vote total melee revamp. yesssss

 

[Cold Steel]

I'm having more fun playing 1.2 then when playing 1.0/1.1

The glitches in 1.1 were abused to the very bottom, wich got you really frustrated and stopped you from playing the game. Now when I play 1.2, I can actually compete with other people, since I'm not very good at it, and I'm having a blast.

 

[DarktoothDKD]

A lot of the posts about ESF 1.2 talk about the speed. Dont you increase in speed after you ascend? I mean, if you think about it. In normall state you are slow.. and as you ascend more and more you become faster and faster. Since 1.3 is going to have all the transformations.. when you reach the final level you could be going faster than 1.1 swoop.
And for your information.. the kiblasts is the max speed of the hl engine
I like 1.2 because of the various ways to attack your enemy. Instead of just swooping and bashing him, you can throw him, go into adv melee, wall jump, and swoop in multiple directions. There are a lot of different things that could be done in 1.2 than 1.1. In 1.2 you can still create combos but none that will link as long as 1.1. If you guys want speed.. 1.3 just may be your answer

 

[sub]

A lot of the posts about ESF 1.2 talk about the speed. Dont you increase in speed after you ascend? I mean, if you think about it. In normall state you are slow.. and as you ascend more and more you become faster and faster. Since 1.3 is going to have all the transformations.. when you reach the final level you could be going faster than 1.1 swoop.
And for your information.. the kiblasts is the max speed of the hl engine
I like 1.2 because of the various ways to attack your enemy. Instead of just swooping and bashing him, you can throw him, go into adv melee, wall jump, and swoop in multiple directions. There are a lot of different things that could be done in 1.2 than 1.1. In 1.2 you can still create combos but none that will link as long as 1.1. If you guys want speed.. 1.3 just may be your answer

I hate to be the one to say this, but transformations are horrible. No one uses them in a real fight. It does increase your speed, but it also doubles your ki making the game a lot less fun. A lot of skill comes from ki management and most people get their hits from when the other guy is low on ki. With the increase in ki, it becomes nearly impossible to hit someone. Anyone that has a clue of what they're doing will never run out of ki in ssj. This is why 1.3 will be a total waste. You're upgrading something that people don't really care about. Fix the melee, please.

I'm having more fun playing 1.2 then when playing 1.0/1.1

The glitches in 1.1 were abused to the very bottom, wich got you really frustrated and stopped you from playing the game. Now when I play 1.2, I can actually compete with other people, since I'm not very good at it, and I'm having a blast.

What abuses in 1.1? I can't think of any bugs off the top of my head other then the ones that crashed the server. 1.2 on the other hand... I can name atleast 5 bugs off the top of my head that utterly ruin the game if abused..

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

A lot of the posts about ESF 1.2 talk about the speed. Dont you increase in speed after you ascend? I mean, if you think about it. In normall state you are slow.. and as you ascend more and more you become faster and faster. Since 1.3 is going to have all the transformations.. when you reach the final level you could be going faster than 1.1 swoop.
And for your information.. the kiblasts is the max speed of the hl engine
I like 1.2 because of the various ways to attack your enemy. Instead of just swooping and bashing him, you can throw him, go into adv melee, wall jump, and swoop in multiple directions. There are a lot of different things that could be done in 1.2 than 1.1. In 1.2 you can still create combos but none that will link as long as 1.1. If you guys want speed.. 1.3 just may be your answer

DT thats actually a problem to. See for some wierd apparent reason no one in the ESF community if your having a clan match, or it could be a simple 1 on 1. No one wants to transform because it gives too many advantages, and alot of chars are also at a different advantage.

They also do not allow Buu in 1on1 or clan matches. Also don't allow anything thats not Melee, a Ki blast or a Generic Beam/Ball. Which is why pretty much everyone complains about the speed. When they could just transform, but as I said above there are alot of Disadvantages even when 1.3 comes out. People still would not want to transform, and fight. In 1.1 we didn't transform, and fight either it was all normal form fights. Unless it was allowed during a clan match, but that was rarely seen.

1.2 cuts the speed down to not even half of what 1.1 used to be. 1.2 would be really fun if the teleport delay wasn't there, and the Ki cost wasn't high for everything you did, if throwing was revamped, and the knockbacks on simple melee were increased a bit along with the simple melee hits being uncapped. It would be a swell game, but there are a few people out here who are considered the "best players".

Who technically all they do is sit, and way for you to attack them, and if you don't attack them they will just start beaming you all day with the most boring strategy ever, and when you do attack them they will Block Instant Counter, and throwing you into the ceiling then combo you from the ceiling then just knock u down with a Generic Beam, and by the time all that is done your dead. That also requires no skill. Its not tricking our out manuevering its what we call in a fighting game community "Turtling".

Its beatable, but it takes quite a long time, and I am never in the mood to sit there for a hour making the match go slower, and slower everytime we fight.

Advanced melee is also a problem because of random arrows. I wouldn't have a problem if Random arrows didn't appear at the End of a imput session, you already know its a Strong hit, but you never know where its coming from its always a guessing game. Instead they should either just fade away, or make it so you are able to Block a random arrow. Like it could work like this

Blocking: If you block advanced melee hit session you cannot be thrown *this is already in*, but get this. Also if you block a melee hit session your arrows won't disappear as fast, and so you have to press them slower, and since you blocked it your Imputs should move faster. Vice Versa, but if you get hit with it your Arrows that you have to dodge will come up faster, and fade away faster.

Countering a Random Arrow: You could block a random arrow with the Block button, and then just well enter some to counter it.
(i dunno its something off the top of my head)

Also I remember in 1.1 There was a no hit melee zone I am sure they took that out for 1.2's adv melee, but the no hit melee zone made it harder for people to hit you, and with that you could stop someones swoop with your own swoop or teleport. In 1.2 that is not possible since it is no longer there, and since there is no longer a no hit melee zone its back to 1.0's easier hit zone with instant counters.

The Teleport delay is half, and half. Its bareable, but at the sametime unbareable. Because there I times myself, or someone else knows that you could've dodged this certain something if that delay wasn't there. I don't mind anyone trying to script against me even though its sort of stupid since it takes all your ki away, and you could see it coming a mile away, but there are also a bunch of people who do not have "Sharingan, or Byakugan" to see, and counter react to something fast enough, but still I don't like the teleport delay. I wish this was taken off, or as hybrid suggested a while back a cvar for it.

Also the physics, and smoothness in 1.1 is no longer present in 1.2 I am talking about physics like. I could swoop, and then stop to charge I would drift a lil while he was charging. It was really like you were in the air flying. Especially if you were beam jumping your momentum would carry you. Say if you beam jumped across the map, and tried to change your momentum you couldn't change it you would continue going that way until you stopped since the Physics were that good.

That is also no longer present in 1.2. I bet if we combined the 2 we would have a great game that 1.1 fans, and 1.2 fans alike could play, rejoice, and be happy, but that is just my opinion I hope someone agrees with me, but if not thats ok too.

 

[Ravendust]

If you got hit in such a way that the guy that hits you has enough ki for a 5-6 hit combo, you deserved it.

That's like saying you deserve throwspam or beamspam just because the other person 'could do it' :S

 

[sub]

No, it's not like saying that at all. If you suck that much to be hit when the other person has full ki, you deserved to be comboed. You weren't going to last very long at that rate. Besides, the combos took skill to use (unlike beamspamming / throwing =/ ), you yourself said you couldn't do a 5-6 hit combo let alone do one in a fight.

 

[Ravendust]

Yes I know I couldn't, but if someone charges a Final Flash, or engages you in Adv Melee, you have a fighting chance to survive. If someone respawns near you or is behind you or above you or hell, just get lucky, you get bounced around the map faster than two hookers on a trampoline and that's not my idea of fun. I understand it's about skill but once you've mastered it you can pretty much whore those 5-6 hitters until the target gets pissed off and quits. Beams are used more in 1.2 because of this I think.

 

[Majin_You]

honestly carnage, i have access to force pit to see which way the direction of this game was going, and i cant say what they are adding but it doesn't sound too promising.

With all due respect, although the Force Pit does get you peaks at what's going on, it doesn't give you the complete picture. I can say, with honesty, that most conclusions based solely on Force Pit content won't be all too accurate... you'll just have to take my word on that.

Putting that aside, I have to say that my preferences are a bit split when I attempt to compare 1.1 and 1.2. I don't see the two versions as releases that were attempting to reach the same goals. 1.0/1.1 had a really neat idea for melee when it first came out. People were REALLY intrigued by it, and it was a lot of fun to smash people clear accross the map. At the same time, I found myself wanting a bit more to do when it came to melee. It was fun to smash people around. However, at the same time, it was always fun to just beat on people in 2.0a and previous versions. I think that 1.2 was an honest attempt at attempting to expand on what made 1.0/1.1's melee so much fun. Granted, it has really altered those aspects that some held near and dear from 1.0/1.1. However, I acknowledge that:

a) The 1.0/1.1 style of melee was never meant to be permanent.
b) The 1.2 style of melee was a first attempt at something that can be changed in any number of ways.

I do enjoy 1.2 melee for the new aspects it has added, and I hope to see them developed further in future releases. Surely, it can be noted that there is quite a bit of potential in working with ALL (1.0/1.1 and 1.2) melee concepts that have been coded thus far, mixing and editing until a new winning formula is created.

Long story short: though I don't really have the comments about speed and skill to add to me opinion (as neither have been really prominent in game for me - I've never been that great at ESF, regardless of the version), I think that 1.2 has set up numerous areas where melee can be added to and tweaked, such that a more completely satisfying system can be created (I won't say universally satisfying, as there will always be at least one person who won't like the looks of the game - it happens).

My apologies if this isn't the type of opinion wanted (IE: less about speed/combo aspect comparision).

 

[Lynxy]

I'm having more fun playing 1.2 then when playing 1.0/1.1

The glitches in 1.1 were abused to the very bottom, wich got you really frustrated and stopped you from playing the game. Now when I play 1.2, I can actually compete with other people, since I'm not very good at it, and I'm having a blast.

What glitches? Some elite being able to combo you through the entire map? That requires coordination, speed and accuracy, mate. That's not a glitch.

Indeed, 1.1 is more about speed while 1.2 asks for brainwork

How the hell does 1.2 require more brainwork? Block, swoop and throw ceiling/combo? Throw/laser? Double-tap basic melee? Beamspamming? I mean, come on. You know, you were one of the few good people around in 1.1. It required alot of coordination for you to land an attack. If you wanted to combo, you'd have to know the distance you would have to teleport to lend another hit. Sometimes 3 teleports, sometimes 7. And when you got hit against a wall or ceiling/floor, you'd have to jump in quickly to do another hit. Basically, you had to think fast, act fast and do it right. 1.2 is more similar to chess. The game pauses for you, and you can think of a move to make.

Seriously, there's no brainwork there. Even though 1.1 was just pingponging around players, it required a hell lot of skill to do it. And boy, were people addicted to it. They loved it. People would actually come on a server and discover they could do combo's. And a few months later, they could do mutliple ones.

A slower game doesn't mean it requires more brainwork. Get that straight.

 

[Cold Steel]

I'm talking about ground rolling combo's

The l33ts just smashed you into the ground and pulled off one of these super difficult and skilled tricks =/

 

[imkongkong]

1.2 is actually more fun for me than 1.0 and 1.1. dbz fights weren't jsut about u knock someone really far then they knock you back really far all the time. a lot of the fights were hand to hand upclose, and not always knocking back.

the advance melee is actually a very good system if you think about it. the only problem i feel is that it feels slow sometimes. i saw those new animations in the models section someone did and it made advance melee look more fun. if that was added PLUS more combos instead of the simple and VERY predictable combos utilizing OTHER directions, it would make it much more enjoyable

 

[Carnage the 1]

How the hell does 1.2 require more brainwork? Block, swoop and throw ceiling/combo? Throw/laser? Double-tap basic melee? Beamspamming? I mean, come on.

Although 1.1 also required alot of coordination and timing like you said, in 1.2 you cannot base everything on speed. If you were fast enough in b1.1, alot of ppl wouldnt stand a chance, regardless if you missed alot or simply sucked then. I think that's one of the reasons the team made it slower (not that I agree but I can imagine their decision). In 1.2, you're going to have to outsmart your foe because it's alot easier for him to follow your movement.
Unfortunately, alot of people take the easiest way to victory and start doing anything that will make them win. Constantly blockthrowing is one of those things that makes the game alot less pingfriendly. Anyone with a low ping can easily use his ping to exploit his oponent's weakness. I don't mind people playing defensive, as long as they don't abuse it. Constantly running away and beaming you if you don't follow them is such a thing. With 150 ping you simply cannot dodge everything. People who say it's a style of playing don't understand what they're doing. Ping is annoying enough as it is, having it exploited only makes it worse.

I still don't understand why Joe even thought about removing simple melee in the first place. Either he only thinks of himself or he overestimated advanced melee. It's quite obvious that a part of the community liked the 1.1 simple melee, regardless if they were good at it or not at all. The other part likes advanced melee, but almost everyone agrees that it's slow. Now, adv melee is being worked on (which is good to know), that leaves us with simple melee. Even though I don't mind a total revamp of simple melee, I do know it's unlikely to happen. If you check one of my previous posts, I suggested 3 things that would no doubt already satisfy both parties alot more.

Different topic: rate my suggestions..

Being pinballed is what added the difficulty to the combos but the distance was indeed sometimes a bit rediculous. Somewhere back, some people suggested that you'll be able to block while being pushed back (using the crosshair). That would also increase difficulty without needing a long knockback distance which pretty much creates a balance if you ask me. That way, there is still skill involved (doing angles to avoid the blocks) but you won't be bouncing around the map either. Of course the knockback would still have to be more like 1.1 than now, faster and further.

One of my other suggestions was that throwing is altered. I proposed the following:

Instead of doing adv melee and then the throwing, you now swoop, hold the left mouse button and you will do a small throw (completely automatic). While this will not cost ki, it's quite riscy because when it is blocked - the attack will reversed completely. That makes throwing hard to do but not useless as it's alot faster as well.

My final problem is the tele delay. Although annoying, I learned to live with it. Now it's not much of an obstacle anymore to me, but in order for the previous suggestions to work (at least the one concerning simple melee), it would probably still have to be decreased by another 50% or something. Tele-ing is one thing that created speed and because most of you agree that 1.2 is (a bit) slow - decreasing the tele delay (and decreasing ki usage for teleing in say... normal and ssj form?) would automatically speed things up.

Just ask if anything is unclear.

 

[Rayos]

there were more openings to use scripts than now in 1.2 that is what the jist is. using mouse wheel in one point one for teleporting was just a prime example...


as far as the "better" players now. I don't think any of them will do the 5-6 hit combo anymore. They will do one hit and that is it from it. 1.2 requires more on angles than 1.1 did. 1.1 you had to have more control over your speed than 1.2 but 1.2 you need to have just as good timing to get an angle hit. If you say i am wrong, then face phatslugga, thy from ape or Gon from z and prove me wrong

 

[Carnage the 1]

Ehm no offense, but I angle quite alot myself and it's definatly harder in 1.1. Right now, everything is just slower so you can time it easier. In fact 1.1 probably relied more on angles than 1.2 due to it being it pretty much one of the few ways of attacking back then. It definatly proved usefull against the so called HOWers. Other than that, a tele script didn't kill you within 5 seconds like the ground combo does >_>.

Enough of that for now, time to think of some solutions.

*typo*

 

[Lynxy]

If you were fast enough in b1.1, alot of ppl wouldnt stand a chance, regardless if you missed alot or simply sucked then. I think that's one of the reasons the team made it slower (not that I agree but I can imagine their decision). In 1.2, you're going to have to outsmart your foe because it's alot easier for him to follow your movement.

Yeah, speed pretty much did it. However, if you didn't have the speed, there was always block and other tactics. That isn't around in 1.2. You can't get around that multi hit exploit. And unless you're the ki-recharge master, the other guy pretty much knocks you out with his conserving-ki tactic. That's pretty double. People complain about the intense speed and combo's you couldn't avoid in 1.1 (I still don't get what's wrong to that, standing ovation for those who could in my opinion), while it's still there in 1.2 and that's "Okay". But if you compare the two, 1.1 would be harder. I found it harder to pingpong someone around in 1.1 than in 1.2. The knockback, timing, etc.

Getting back to suggestions, which this thread was originally made for;

Increase the knockback, enable faster teleporting (if you want to keep the precious delay, fine, but put it at 0.002 sec or someting), and get rid of the 2-hit-max combo crap. And by that I mean in-air, not wall/ground hits included. Oh, and increase the swoop speed, it's awfully slow right now.

as far as the "better" players now. I don't think any of them will do the 5-6 hit combo anymore. They will do one hit and that is it from it. 1.2 requires more on angles than 1.1 did. 1.1 you had to have more control over your speed than 1.2 but 1.2 you need to have just as good timing to get an angle hit. If you say i am wrong, then face phatslugga, thy from ape or Gon from z and prove me wrong

Tell you what. Why don't you and I have a game of 1.1, and we'll see who'se angle is best. Aye? I'll supply this thread with screenshots/demo's if needed. And timing? Let's see who gets combo'd around constantly. Aye? How about we do that. I can't wait. A 1.1 legend versus a 1.2 legend, let's see which angle cuts it.

 

[Cold Steel]

They took down the speeds, because otherwise forms like ssj3 would be uncontrollable if every transformation increases speed.

 

[Rayos]

i find that funny since you challenge me to a 1.1 match but not a 1.2 match...of course you wouldn't, why would you? Set whatever you like up...i do not really care much about what you can do in a previous version...it is old, it is outdated and personally i find it funny you need to use an old version instead of the current one to challenge them in.. ::Shrug:: all well...you and legend both act alike



Like i stated before. 1.2 is newer and is how the game for now is meant to be played. I say it does require more skill...but it also contains more possibilities to be, and i use this term lightly, "Cheese" Just because there is more possibilities of it, does not mean there will be when you face better players. I won't deny i used them in the past but it doesn't mean i do now. I am done with this topic. It is just going to be people saying this is better and this sucks or this one is better and this one sucks....there will be no end nor will the debat form any grounds of a conclusion.