ESF comparison thread

[Orbit]

Well, I think the debate did form at least 1 conclusion. The speed is ridiculously slow right now. Ofcourse there is a reason. The HL engine just cant support any speed faster than the KI blast's speed.
I have a suggestion that could solve this, but it would require the old targeting back, and I'm quite sure ppl won't like it:

If you and an opponent both target eachother, and only one of you has reached a form with a speed higher then the maximum speed of the engine, the other one will be slowed down so the faster form would still have the speed advantage.
Remember, not the whole server would slow down, just onw opponent, and only if he targets you aswell. If you like this and have an idea that could replace the target and still be used for this idea, post it.

 

[sub]

I don't understand how the engine can't support a faster speed. The speedhack in cs goes faster, doesn't it?

 

[Lynxy]

i find that funny since you challenge me to a 1.1 match but not a 1.2 match...of course you wouldn't, why would you? Set whatever you like up...i do not really care much about what you can do in a previous version...it is old, it is outdated and personally i find it funny you need to use an old version instead of the current one to challenge them in.. :hrug:: all well...you and legend both act alike

You said:

1.2 requires more on angles than 1.1 did

So, if you're that amazing in angles in 1.2. I just can't wait what kind of a god you would be in 1.1. Seriously, let's give it a shot sometime. Unless you're a coward that can't back up his claims, that is. Don't worry, we had those in 1.1 already. Good thing we cleared that issue.

I say it does require more skill...but it also contains more possibilities to be

What possibilities? Care to clarify?

I am done with this topic. It is just going to be people saying this is better and this sucks or this one is better and this one sucks....there will be no end nor will the debat form any grounds of a conclusion.

Is that short for "I give up, let me run away" in college-talk? Good to hear. Just clarifying lad, clarifying..

If you and an opponent both target eachother, and only one of you has reached a form with a speed higher then the maximum speed of the engine, the other one will be slowed down so the faster form would still have the speed advantage.
Remember, not the whole server would slow down, just onw opponent, and only if he targets you aswell. If you like this and have an idea that could replace the target and still be used for this idea, post it.

I did like that idea when I read it. However, on publics, how are you going to deal with that? Slow anyone that's in sight? Also, targetting is no longer possible in 1.2. Although that's kind of cheesy, it's true.

 

[Majin_You]

Right...

I'm starting to see a bit too much of what killed older comparison threads in here. First, and foremost, this is not the thread to be challenging 1.1 players to try their hand at 1.2. Additionally, this is not the place to be telling skilled 1.2 players that they'd be "owned" in 1.1. If you want to bicker with each other over such pointless affairs, please do it over AIM/MSN/ICQ, not in here.

This is the first and last reminder to stick to suggestions and discussion of gameplay aspects. Leave personal challenges out.

 

[Ravendust]

Tell you what. Why don't you and I have a game of 1.1, and we'll see who'se angle is best. Aye? I'll supply this thread with screenshots/demo's if needed. And timing? Let's see who gets combo'd around constantly. Aye?

I am done with this topic. It is just going to be people saying this is better and this sucks or this one is better and this one sucks....there will be no end nor will the debat form any grounds of a conclusion.

Is that short for "I give up, let me run away" in college-talk? Good to hear. Just clarifying lad, clarifying..

He's right. That's what I said when this thread was born. You can't possibly come to a conclusion unless all the 1.2'ers left in which case you've not really accomplished much of a fair one. If a 1.1'er compares the two then 1.1 will obviously come off better and vice versa. I'm sure any suggestions on gamespeed would be welcome in the suggestions forum.

Oh, and no offence but stop talking like an Irishman, you're from Holland for gods sake

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

* Just so this thread won't get closed will it be ok if I made a thread for a 1.1 versus 1.2 people, so they can challenge, and stuff all they want?*

 

[Lynxy]

Oh, and no offence but stop talking like an Irishman, you're from Holland for gods sake

A (small) part of my family is from Ireland. If you think this is bad, you don't know what you're missing over the phone. Can't help it, it's like automatic. Learn to deal with it, aye?

And er, well, nobody replied on my small suggestion earlier. Those few sentences probably didn't cut it. 's a shame.

 

[Majin_You]

*sigh*

If you wanted to discuss your family, it could have been done in private. Likewise, a request for another thread could have been conducted in a similar fashion. Like with any other thread, I will now remind you all to stay on topic. Do not attempt to test any more boundaries in this thread, as it seems to be an honest effort to create a civilized discussion about a very popular topic.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Rayos]

i will say one final thing so i guess i lied about saying done with this topic...


I never said i was good at angle hitting...at NO point did i state i was good at angle hitting. I have a different style of playing that most people, which everyone does...they all have their own techniques..but if you look at the MAJORITY of the pros...they use angle hits to get the better advantage...i used thy, gon and phatslugga as examples...at what point did i EVER...EVER say that i use angle hits to win? So before you start mocking me...why don't you read a little more carefully and comprehend what you are reading like a good little 4th grader and respect my decision to drop the topic. I also stated that you could post whatever time or place but then again, i give too much credit for you to read a full entire post.

So in closing, I am done with this topic, Grow up, get over it...game has changed and you are stuck in the past...that is the end of it

 

[Skiwan]

Well if the game is so slow now then surely the 1.1 players would have much less trouble getting hit, seeming as 1.1 was all based on reactions and "skill" but that isnt the case is it? 1.1 contained 1 direction of continual movement with the swoop, and teleport in 6 directions and turning off flying, 1.2 has 6 directional swoop, and 6 direction teleport and turning off flying, so just looking at that, there are much more outcomes/opertunities to out-manuver your opponent and engineer your angles, sorry but thats plain physics. 1.1 melee battles could go on for a while, and because of the targeting system you couldnt change attacks often, yet again inhibiting your method of attack and tactics. In the most part the hardcore infighting in the game became about knowing when to block, when to teleport, ki conservation and when to swoop, thats 4 things you have to be efficient with. In 1.2 you have all of those things, but you have the addition of preparing for generic beams or ki blasts attacks, using your own at the right times, when to throw or advanced melee or simple melee, when to charge up a sly beam, when to walljump and when to beamjump, thats just a few examples at how more diverse the gameplay is as they can pretty much be incorperated into fighting at anytime. With so many more things to consider, and so many variations of styles of play that your opponent may use, it increases the things that you have to think of during the game, which i find is much more mentally challenging than the 4 main principles of 1.1. Infact thats why i found 1.1 boring >_> *hides* not that i was good at it, it just seemed like too much of the same thing, and i couldnt bring myself to play it so often.

I see 1.2 as having an increased arsenal, yet they took away some of the things that made 1.1 brilliant, I can live with the changes but i still think they could improve upon what they've started.

If 1.2 was to intergrate some of the aspects of 1.1 simple melee i think we'd all be happy. the word im looking for... comprimise =]

 

[imkongkong]

well said david, i applaud your post =p

 

[SolidSnake]

Eh, I think the only real way to increase the speed of the melee is to add real-time combos, kind of like DMZ was, but for melee only. It's a problem of where to input the combo. Maybe while swooping? Who knows, or cares. No one's gonna have much love for a DMZ related idea anyway...

Blocking: If you block advanced melee hit session you cannot be thrown *this is already in*, but get this. Also if you block a melee hit session your arrows won't disappear as fast, and so you have to press them slower, and since you blocked it your Imputs should move faster. Vice Versa, but if you get hit with it your Arrows that you have to dodge will come up faster, and fade away faster.

I'd say that's a good idea but I think it's a better idea to redo the melee altogether.

And I agree, well said David.

 

[Carnage the 1]

i will say one final thing so i guess i lied about saying done with this topic...


I never said i was good at angle hitting...at NO point did i state i was good at angle hitting. I have a different style of playing that most people, which everyone does...they all have their own techniques..but if you look at the MAJORITY of the pros...they use angle hits to get the better advantage...i used thy, gon and phatslugga as examples...at what point did i EVER...EVER say that i use angle hits to win? So before you start mocking me...why don't you read a little more carefully and comprehend what you are reading like a good little 4th grader and respect my decision to drop the topic. I also stated that you could post whatever time or place but then again, i give too much credit for you to read a full entire post.

So in closing, I am done with this topic, Grow up, get over it...game has changed and you are stuck in the past...that is the end of it

Thank you for being totally offtopic and contributing nothing to this topic.

Now, for dave...
B1.2 is easier, you said it yourself and that's probably why we don't like it. We want to be acknowledged for the work we put into practising so that we actually have a goal to become better. If people saw 'wow' this and 'awesome' that, you're far more motivated to get better. There is no more 'wow' effect in 1.2. Everything you see can be done by anyone without too much effort. And when those 'tactics' can kill you instantly without being able to move, we get agrivated. Can you blame us? No, you can't, just as much as you have your opinion we have ours. We have seen what ESF could be like COMBINING the best of the 2 versions. People who never played or weren't good at 1.1 don't know that. For them, 1.2 is fine because they can finally kill someone who's been playing for more than 2 years and the worst is probably that they do it by repeating the same pattern over and over. Now you can probably say "live with it or think of something". You're right, we can think of something and we probably will, but it will take us alot more time than the other guy as he will just think of something else that is either an exploit or unbalanced. That is was ticks us off and why we want this and that to change. Everyone should have a fair chance, may the best man win, not may the best exploiter win. Why do we prefer 1.1? Because it was simple, and simplicity is the basis for perfection. Simplicity does not allow a high amount of abusage or similarities. B1.2 could've been better, if they balanced it right.

As for strategy, 1.1 contained alot of strategy. Everybody just thinks that you swoop and tele all the time. While this is partially true, it's a hell of alot more fun than the slow gameplay we have now. Either you agree, or you don't. If you don't I suggest you install 1.1 again sometime and play, even if it is just vs a bot (superbot preferly). What do you get? You get owned, the first thing you will say is either 'wtf', 'omg' or 'holy poo'. Why? cos 1.2 doesn't provide you with reaction time or speed. It's like chess, you need to think but it's boring and slow. Now speed up chess 10x and you'll have a far more exciting game and that's a fact. Why do you think alot of old people play chess eh? Your first reaction will probably 'arf too fast' but you will get used to it and get better at it. THAT is what gives satisfaction, pleasure and fun into a game, not just tactics and/or strategy.


To sum it all up

1.1 = speed
1.2 = tactics
1.3 should be both, period

Ow and moaning about it being BETA isn't a good excuse, that's why I am doing this. If you don't understand, dont even bother posting here.

 

[Optimus Prime]

B1.2 is easier, you said it yourself and that's probably why we don't like it. We want to be acknowledged for the work we put into practising so that we actually have a goal to become better.

And what about casual players that don't have the time to play hours a day to turn into "omg wtf 1337 pr0s", are you gonna tell them too bad? Hardly. The team has to create a game that appeals to all skill levels. Not a game that has the potential to let a small group of dedicated players who have the time on their hands, to leave the rest in the dust. That's the opposite of a balanced game. The harder the learning curve of a game is, the less likely new players are to stick with it. Getting owned isn't fun, and it turns people off of the game,

If people saw 'wow' this and 'awesome' that, you're far more motivated to get better. There is no more 'wow' effect in 1.2. <u>Everything you see can be done by anyone without too much effort.</u>

God forbid a game is balanced so that anyone can pick it up without too much difficulty.

And when those 'tactics' can kill you instantly without being able to move, we get agrivated.

Welcome to the world of 1.1 for the 90% of the people who weren't "1337", aggravated.

Can you blame us? No, you can't, <u>just as much as you have your opinion we have ours.</u> We have seen what ESF could be like COMBINING the best of the 2 versions. People who never played or weren't good at 1.1 don't know that.

The only problem you seem to have is, that you come off with the sense that "I was pr0 at 1.1, therefore my opinion holds more weight than yours." You create a thread asking people for their opinions, then when they are different than yours, you shoot them down. If you're that insecure about your opinions, that you have to shoot down other people's opinions that differ from yours... that's mature. No really, that wasn't sarcasm, or that, or that, or that...

For them, 1.2 is fine because they can finally kill someone who's been playing for more than 2 years and the worst is probably that they do it by repeating the same pattern over and over. Now you can probably say "live with it or think of something". You're right, we can think of something and we probably will, but it will take us alot more time than the other guy as he will just think of something else that is either an exploit or unbalanced.

I would write another thing about balance, but you've already made it clear you don't like repetition.

That is was ticks us off and why we want this and that to change. Everyone should have a fair chance, may the best man win, not may the best exploiter win. Why do we prefer 1.1? Because it was simple, and simplicity is the basis for perfection. Simplicity does not allow a high amount of abusage or similarities. B1.2 could've been better, if they balanced it right.

Ok, I lied about being repetitive. 1.1 was not balanced, it's that simple (you can argue all you want that 1.1 was balanced [likely because you were good at it] but if 1.1 was so balanced, you wouldn't be so pissed off that 1.2 leveled the playing field). While 1.1 had the potential to create some pretty spectacular players, some of you guys are the proof. It allowed some of you guys to evolve to such a level of gameplay that casual players that didn't have the time to become that skilled just couldn't keep up, and that in my opinion is far more aggravating than "omg wtf he beat me and it's only his first day".

As for strategy, 1.1 contained alot of strategy. Everybody just thinks that you swoop and tele all the time. While this is partially true, it's a hell of alot more fun than the slow gameplay we have now. Either you agree, or you don't. <u>If you don't I suggest you install 1.1 again sometime and play</u>, even if it is just vs a bot (superbot preferly).

So much for "everyone is entitled to their opinion" huh Carnage?

What do you get? You get owned, the first thing you will say is either 'wtf', 'omg' or 'holy poo'. Why? cos 1.2 doesn't provide you with reaction time or speed. It's like chess, you need to think but it's boring and slow. Now speed up chess 10x and you'll have a far more exciting game and that's a fact.

No, you wouldn't. Some games weren't meant to be fast, chess for example was a game that was meant for strategy. I know that's not the point you were trying to make, you just used a really... <i>really</i> bad comparison there.

Why do you think alot of old people play chess eh?

So do a lot of young people. But old people also ski, what's the point?

Your first reaction will probably 'arf too fast' but you will get used to it and get better at it. <b><h2>IN MY OPINION</h2></b> THAT is what gives satisfaction, pleasure and fun into a game, not just tactics and/or strategy.

I had to edit this particular quote for you, just for clarification. So is that why so many people still play Starcraft? Not because it requires tactics and some great strategy, cause it's so fast?

Ow and moaning about it being BETA isn't a good excuse, that's why I am doing this. If you don't understand, dont even bother posting here.

Actually, it is a good <s>excuse</s> argument. We've heard your opinions on 1.2 a hundred times. They seem to come up about once a month. And they never change, we get it already. You guys dont like 1.2, you love 1.1, combine them. You could post this everyday, but 1.2.x isn't going to magically change to suit your needs. You just have to wait until 1.3 comes out, and moaning until then isn't helping the cause.

 

[Carnage the 1]

Ow so you're saying we should just stop posting critisism and pretend to be happy? Ya, let's wait again and see what it turns out to be, if it sux we'll just wait for 1.4!!! That doesn't work, you know that as much as we do. Why? 1.2 proves it. There was enough criticism already but you guys didn't even bother to think about it. Then what, you expect us to be satisfied because you thought it would be ok?

Ask around, nearly everyone who has played 1.2 will agree that it is slow.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's been posted at least 10x that BOTH are in ONE game but I guess you forgot about that and no I don't mean the crappy cvar we have for it now, it doesn't come anywhere close. If you guys aren't willing to change, tell us, don't leave us in the dark 'hoping' for something that will never be reality.

Unfortunately, I have posted a few suggestions already, getting positive feedback so I haven't been just 'moaning' about it. In the past, there were already discussions about the new gameplay and I am far from being the only one who thinks this way.

The community is split up, 1.1 lovers and 1.2 lovers, easy as that. Either you want to keep this to go on, or you could actually try to compromise. I haven't seen anything from the team regarding that and from the looks of it, you're not planning to either.

Let me ask you, do you play ESF, in fact do any teammembers other than DJ even play ESF on a regular basis? I don't mean in your own little servers but in pubs, in duels and what not. I'd be suprised if you do, because you would've known what is wrong with the current ESF. If you don't, care to explain why? I doubt not having time would be the reason as you seem to have enough time to mod a forum and talk on chat mediums.

 

[Rayos]

and we talk about me being off topic...so i'll do it one more time....okay so i guess i am not going to drop this when so many loose ends come up ::Shrug:: all well


why dont' you just be happy there is a dbz mod you can play? Can you do better? Try writing the coding to make the characters fly at different speeds when buttons are pressed. Fairly basic, can you do it? Probably not. The coders get to have their way whether you like it or not. They ask us for our benefit, not theirs. They aren't getting paid for this and guess what...if you stopped playing, there will still be more people willing to check the game out and become a player themselves.

I find it funny that you think that coders would write the game and not test it themselves. To me and i'll do this since you will just yell again IN MY OPINION Is Complete IGNORANCE.


How do you know that they didn't tweak anything? Minus the 1.3 outline, they haven't said a thing. You assumed...what good is that?

again as for them playing one more time. Apparently they did see what was wrong with esf and changed it from 1.1 to 1.2. Is any of this "FINAL"? NO...why do you think they have the word BETA next to the releases. They had to have done something make it so they would revamp ESF's melee all together. In this forum you are moaning, in the suggestions you aren't but here you are. It is getting quite repetitive and boring if you ask me. Let me ask you something......Why do you bother posting this repeatedly? Is it because you have TOO much free time? Could be the answer...but why WASTE it which again IN MY OPINION is what you are doing. Meh why should i care, waste it, if it is all you could come up with

 

[Carnage the 1]

and we talk about me being off topic...so i'll do it one more time....okay so i guess i am not going to drop this when so many loose ends come up ::Shrug:: all well


why dont' you just be happy there is a dbz mod you can play? Can you do better? Try writing the coding to make the characters fly at different speeds when buttons are pressed. Fairly basic, can you do it? Probably not. The coders get to have their way whether you like it or not. They ask us for our benefit, not theirs. They aren't getting paid for this and guess what...if you stopped playing, there will still be more people willing to check the game out and become a player themselves.

I find it funny that you think that coders would write the game and not test it themselves. To me and i'll do this since you will just yell again IN MY OPINION Is Complete IGNORANCE.


How do you know that they didn't tweak anything? Minus the 1.3 outline, they haven't said a thing. You assumed...what good is that?

again as for them playing one more time. Apparently they did see what was wrong with esf and changed it from 1.1 to 1.2. Is any of this "FINAL"? NO...why do you think they have the word BETA next to the releases. They had to have done something make it so they would revamp ESF's melee all together. In this forum you are moaning, in the suggestions you aren't but here you are. It is getting quite repetitive and boring if you ask me. Let me ask you something......Why do you bother posting this repeatedly? Is it because you have TOO much free time? Could be the answer...but why WASTE it which again IN MY OPINION is what you are doing. Meh why should i care, waste it, if it is all you could come up with

And you call me repetitive?

I'm not happy because we are all here for one goal, to make ESF enjoyable for everyone. You're not whining because you don't see a problem, I see a problem so I whine, live with it.

Of course they will play the game but have you ever seen a teammember in a pub? I haven't and I highly doubt any of you have.

How do I know? Believe me, I know alright, in fact I probably know more than you about what's going on. Assuming is what we did last time already and it was a bad experience so I'm trying to prevent the team from making the same mistake.

Why do you post? You obviously have something to defend or you wouldn't have minded me posting my criticism. Is it that 1.1 is too hard for you? Or don't you like fair fights? Whatever it is, you already said you wouldn't post here anymore for about 2 times now and you still do. How about living up to what you say?
-----------------

Now, let me clarify a few things with examples...

Sports....
yes sports..
Let's take football, a very famous sport, or icehockey, or both!

Let's see what makes it so popular..
It requires strategy, tactics and teamplay
It is anything but slow, in fact it's probably fast paced.
It has ranks, people who just started out can't join the best team in the world, they have to earn it.
It is simple, so alot of people can understand and follow the game.

Now let's take alook at 1.1 and 1.2:

1.1:
tactics, strategy? Yes, but not much, somewhat limited
Slow? No, it's fast, very fast, too fast for most obviously
Ranks? Clearly, you have to work for something to become someone
Simple? Yes, in fact, probably a bit too simple.

1.2:
Tactics, strategy? Alot, far more than 1.1
Slow? No doubt
Ranks? Somewhat, but even ESFn00b can get you once in a while
Simple? Simple and advanced enough for it to be interesting .

So, 1.2 just lacks speed. Do transformations cut it? No, that's obvious. We don't want to play half an hour to get a decently fast paced battle.

Other reasons why speed is important:

- Why do people have car races? Why do some people speed on public roads? Because of the speed, the thrill.
- Martial arts, what do we see? Fast paced action, hell, they even needed to invent 'bullet time' and other slowmo effects for movies. You don't see them thinking 5 minutes about what move they are going to do, it's a combination of tactics, strategy and speed.
- I'm sure you can think of something

Now, let's talk about balance.

Imagine two samurai's or knights sword fighting with eachother. They are both somewhat equally skilled with their weapons. Now a young lad sees them, stabs one of them in the back and shoots the other one with a crossbow.

Fair? Balanced? I mean, the new kid won, didn't he? He didn't have to spend years practising to stand a chance vs them, so it's balanced, fair and everyone should agree.

Compare this to ESF:

Two *ugh* 'l33ts' are fighting. ESFn00b joins the game, stabs player 1 in the back and kills him with the so-called groundcombo. He then starts jumping around the map with a kame, beamjumps and kills player 2.

Fair? Would you like that to happen to you or would you be the ESFn00b in this story? Would you appreciate it when it happened to you?

Another story:

The same players are fighting, ESFn00b joins the game and hits player 1 in the back. Player 1 recovers and beats the light of ESFn00b's eyes while player 2 is patienly waiting or even helping player 1. ESFn00b then leaves the game, joins these forums and whines about ESF being too hard for him.

Fair? Did ESFn00b get what was comming to him? Did he ask for it?

How about real-life? Would you expect to win if you came with sticks and rocks while the enemy has you outnumbered and possesses far more advanced technology. Would you cry about it being unfair? Of course it's unfair, what do you expect, you're not God. Would you cry to God and ask for the enemy to be whiped out because you couldn't win?

Get my point already?

Sad thing is, the team changed the game so that they grant those people's wishses and who do we see defending the current system? Exactly.

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

Nicely put Carnage. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Lynxy]

The team has to create a game that appeals to all skill levels. Not a game that has the potential to let a small group of dedicated players who have the time on their hands, to leave the rest in the dust. That's the opposite of a balanced game. The harder the learning curve of a game is, the less likely new players are to stick with it. Getting owned isn't fun, and it turns people off of the game,

It's games like this that need practise. If you're new into Unreal Tournament (any version), you're pretty much done for. The other guys practised alot, and they take profit out of killing the newbie alot. No wonder, easy killing. It's called gameplay. Let's pick MMORPG games for example. Everyone has to work hard (okay, and a little luck attached to it, but mainly time and skill) to get their character all developed up. They need to earn their cash in order to get all of the tough weapons and armors. Now, according to you, that shouldn't be there. Everyone should be equal with the same chances and some skills. That's somewhat communistic, you know that?

While 1.1 had the potential to create some pretty spectacular players, some of you guys are the proof. It allowed some of you guys to evolve to such a level of gameplay that casual players that didn't have the time to become that skilled just couldn't keep up, and that in my opinion is far more aggravating than "omg wtf he beat me and it's only his first day".

They could keep up, they just had to put some time into it. Like the guys who've gotten to that level, as well. It's something called HARD WORK PAYS OFF. And that's pretty normal.

So much for "everyone is entitled to their opinion" huh Carnage?

Mind the word suggest? It's not a must. Also, leave the cynical remarks, let the professional deal with that.

You just have to wait until 1.3 comes out, and moaning until then isn't helping the cause.

I'd have a serious chat with an Admin to lock up the Suggestions forum, then.

Just felt like adding that. Other than that, nice comments.

 

[Skiwan]

Imagine two samurai's or knights sword fighting with eachother. They are both somewhat equally skilled with their weapons. Now a young lad sees them, stabs one of them in the back and shoots the other one with a crossbow.

Fair? Balanced? I mean, the new kid won, didn't he? He didn't have to spend years practising to stand a chance vs them, so it's balanced, fair and everyone should agree.

Compare this to ESF:

Two *ugh* 'l33ts' are fighting. ESFn00b joins the game, stabs player 1 in the back and kills him with the so-called groundcombo. He then starts jumping around the map with a kame, beamjumps and kills player 2.

Fair? Would you like that to happen to you or would you be the ESFn00b in this story? Would you appreciate it when it happened to you?

Sorry but I find that a completely insane arguement especially with what you're trying to prove. They arent that good a samurai if sum kid can run up to them and stab them in the back, a true expert samurai would always be aware of his surroundings the sound of feet behind him should have alerted the expert samurai straight away, and a step to the side and a swing backwards, and thats the problem taken care of. In esf if you get hit by a newb its cuz you arent good enough, you do have a radar afterall. This isnt ment to be offensive, but the fact that you arent the top player in 1.2 proves that its harder for you, if you're getting hit by newbs its not the coders fault, its yours. You say that 1.1 took more skill but then you say esfnoob can beat you? that completely voids your arguement that 1.1 requires more skill because you yourself can get hit by newbs in 1.2, logic is telling me with the increased amount of variables in the things you can do in a 1.2 fight, that means there is a level of skill beyond that where you cant get touched by newbs because there are even more things you can do in 1.2 to avoid your enemy's attacks, you just havent got to that skill level yet.

Surely again, if the gameplay is slowed down your reactions now would mean you would never get hit, but that clearly isnt the case, because before when you knew the score of what the other player was thinking (the 4 principles of 1.1 melee) now you have much more things to worry about, at the same time much more things you can manipulate him with, again i see much more tactics involved, as well as skill in the game, is skill about not getting hit and hitting your opponent as much as possible? well thats what tactics are about too.

Last time one of these threads came up i downloaded 1.1 and decided to see the differences, and the speed to me didnt seem to change much at all =\. Yes i got wooped for a while, against medium bots but after an hour or two of playing i could beat them again like i used to. Better bots still were better than me, but i hadnt played it in god knows how long. To me the speed of the game wasnt too great, i was thinking of what to do exactly the same way as 1.2, but i found myself limited and it quickly became boring. Im not an idiot and i dont base my arguements on personal reasons, i look at all the facts, compare and contrast. As we look in this thread alone, it seems to me that the people that were better than they were in 1.1 prefer 1.2, and vice versa, but if you look at people who play 1.2 first and then play 1.1, they dont like 1.1 as much, i had my friends round my house about 1 or 2 months ago, some of them had played 1.2 before some hadnt, and we played 1.1 and 1.2 for a while, and they soon said that they found 1.1 in comparison boring.