Will ESF ever be noob friendly again?

[Armaros]

Let's forget about the noobs and look at mid level players(who know advanced moves, manage ki wisely).

I disagree the part where you compare this to counter strike.

First of all this game is more deathmatch based so it should be compared to the likes of HL2 Deathmatch, Quake DM etc. Although you can find servers need a high level of skill still there are lots of servers where mid level player can enjoy(and even in the servers of high skilled players a mid level player can have a lot of fun and frags ).

Getting 4 hits back to back and be finished by a beam is NOT fun at all and most people will not bother to return to the game if they are exposed to such situation.

Unfortunately in ESF there is little disadvantage of fighting againist more then one players. In fact a high skilled player will own 2-3 mid level players easily. This is not the case in deathmatches. In the open if 2-3 midlevel players coordinate one of them will get the skilled player eventually.

And don't forget that CS has a huge fan base and you can find a lot of servers and can choose the one that suits you most. And the fan base recruits new members and the negative effect of steep learning curve is compansated by the popularity of the game.
If you looked at esf 1.2.3 lately you'll see that there are like a tolat of 10-15 servers and only 2-3 of them has players in them. When you have 1-2 high skilled players in those few active servers even a mid level player can get easily owned and eventually leave the game.
Those few "pro" players will claim that this is the way is should be but this is simply preventing the game to get to a larger audience.

Thats like a full Wikipedia or smth...

 

[DarktoothDKD]

alright alright alright...
reading this thread over and over and over has turned from entertaining to annoyance... There was no physics in 1.0-1.1.1.2..... there isnt... thats it...
The code works how everyone explained it except Vegetaspride...

we put a 6 sided box around the player to make it easier for players to attack each other... why? because the models are 1/4 the size of original models...

so we put a big ass 6 sided cube around the player so we could hit each other.


angle hits worked because it didnt calculate the side of the box that was hit, but the direction each player was facing.

you can stand to players next to each other, one facing forward the other on his left. you can just slowly move over and simle melee him with ease because of the player angles..

there was no physics taken place. Just angles of the players that didnt pay attention to the box..

ragdolls dont do crap because it is just a client side effect of weight and dangliness...

ragdolls wouldnt even work because we have a hitbox CUBE thats 10x bigger than the player.



how do I know this? hmm, cause Im on the team and I talk to the coders and I was here since before 1.0 was created
YAAY alpha days!!!

 

[underline]

im just wondering what is the DKD sufix in your name.

 

[DarktoothDKD]

my initials

 

[Renyori]

I just don't understand how vegetaprides concept has anything to do with the learning curve. Add all the physics you want, ragdoll, inertia, it still won't make beginners stand a chance against vets because vets will always get around to their back, or side to gain the hit. The problem has been that beginners couldn't maneuver their character well which led to veterans doing circles around them with ease, but that is fixed in 1.3.

Also, I don't get why people complain about angles. It's not like its an exploit and takes no skill to do, it definately takes skill to do. It's like complaining about headshots in CS. Though in ESF, there are ways around everything. Just takes some practice.

 

[Synth]

I can't see the similarity between headshots and angle hits. I see angle hits more in common with pre-firing. It's like watching someone wait for someone to move to a certain area, and then you abuse the engine. ESF 1.2.3 ki management is like baiting your enemy to a certain advantage point, then spamming attacks. The difference is that ESF takes way more practice, skill, and looks a helluva lot cooler.

This game punishes you for being aggressive at all... and that's why it has no fanbase. It's all reaction, till someone runs out of ki first, and is taken advantage of. I'm glad to hear though, that this is all being fixed, and you aren't forced to sacrifice to achieve anything. I miss the clean kills in the 1.0-1.1 era. 1.2 and on, is like watching a chicken fight in Mexico City. There may be a victor, but considering that it's typically 1 on 1 and everybody watches or stays out of the way, he/she at that point, has to basically fight on half a health bar or less, or commit suicide.

You end up just looking to fight someone you know or have a rivalry with, then waste effort on someone you've never fought before. As I said in my first post, I was shown by some of the vets how to really dominate. It's really not that fun in the grand scheme, using the same technique to win over and over again. There is no variety in the heat of battle. It's almost like quest grinding in most MMOs, which isn't bad when you're actually playing an MMO, because it's fun watching your gear improve and your effectiveness go up. (well, at least for me)

Not that this point hasn't been made before, though. I'm just trying to reiterate that I can recognize the changes that are hopefully going to stay for good. People like me who have been around since release, miss having a noob farm to abuse on one server, and then another group of average players to practice on another server, then all out pro/clan skirmishes on yet another server. The server situation is basically dominated by admins who wan't certain things to be upheld to almost a nitpicking fashion.

ESF hasn't had a jump-in and enjoy factor for awhile, and I hope that is the number one goal in this next release.

 

[DarktoothDKD]

yeah, we're aiming to fix a lot of those stingy people rules and whatever. There are some elements that are implemented / being implemented to help you guys achieve the kill that you fought for.

I think its coded in and is in testing stages. All I know it, this element will seriously make you hardcore players MUCH more happy when you fight in a populated server

 

[Renyori]

The similarity is that they both aren't easy to do, requires good mouse control, timing, and anticipation. You're talking about a simple play-style that is quite easy to overcome with some practice. The old run, drift, wait for an angle style that can probably be beaten by someone who has played for a few months. People just need to have the patience to actually attempt at improving their skills. Sure there are times when you feel it isn't fun, i've been through that stage as well. But I think once you're passed that, it gets quite fun.

There are lots of very good aggressive players. Ki management is one of the main things. Someone who takes advantage of his opponents faults isn't really abusing the system, he's just playing smart.

I know the learning curve is pretty tough, but i don't believe the system is being abused by the veterans. There are rules for the servers to prevent actual abuse.

I've played with basically all the top players in the world and their play-style isn't what you're describing at all.

 

[DarktoothDKD]

well, gameplay in 1.3 is going to rather change your gameplay style a bit. You can actually play MUCH more aggressive this time around.. like.. beat'down status... lol.

the players have an average of like 700 hp so that means, your going to be beating down for a LONG time and that defeat or victory is soo much sweeter. You actually feel accomplished when you kill someone, cause it took that long.

Dont forget about stamina, that plays a HUGE role in every aspect of offense and defense. Retaliation is almost a devastation when you play your cards right and like I said earlier, your tables can turn relatively fast. And you'll end up seriously beating down the person attacking you.

Think of ESF.... on crack.. thats basically what 1.3 is... at this current build, this very day..

 

[Disguise]

I think this thread has the most information about 1.3 that "I" have seen. I love all the changes you guys have mentioned, like charging swoop and keeping players with high health. Now a swoop at point blank won't send people flying if it isn't charged for very long, which is great.

I'm liking how important Stamina is here. It sounds like it's more important than health, which is how it should be. Thanks for the info guys.

 

[SS4 Gogeta]

I can't see the similarity between headshots and angle hits. I see angle hits more in common with pre-firing. It's like watching someone wait for someone to move to a certain area, and then you abuse the engine. ESF 1.2.3 ki management is like baiting your enemy to a certain advantage point, then spamming attacks. The difference is that ESF takes way more practice, skill, and looks a helluva lot cooler.

This game punishes you for being aggressive at all... and that's why it has no fanbase. It's all reaction, till someone runs out of ki first, and is taken advantage of. I'm glad to hear though, that this is all being fixed, and you aren't forced to sacrifice to achieve anything. I miss the clean kills in the 1.0-1.1 era. 1.2 and on, is like watching a chicken fight in Mexico City. There may be a victor, but considering that it's typically 1 on 1 and everybody watches or stays out of the way, he/she at that point, has to basically fight on half a health bar or less, or commit suicide.

You end up just looking to fight someone you know or have a rivalry with, then waste effort on someone you've never fought before. As I said in my first post, I was shown by some of the vets how to really dominate. It's really not that fun in the grand scheme, using the same technique to win over and over again. There is no variety in the heat of battle. It's almost like quest grinding in most MMOs, which isn't bad when you're actually playing an MMO, because it's fun watching your gear improve and your effectiveness go up. (well, at least for me)

Not that this point hasn't been made before, though. I'm just trying to reiterate that I can recognize the changes that are hopefully going to stay for good. People like me who have been around since release, miss having a noob farm to abuse on one server, and then another group of average players to practice on another server, then all out pro/clan skirmishes on yet another server. The server situation is basically dominated by admins who wan't certain things to be upheld to almost a nitpicking fashion.

ESF hasn't had a jump-in and enjoy factor for awhile, and I hope that is the number one goal in this next release.

lol who have you been playing against? the style you've discribed is the style a lot of Euro players use but there are a few of aggressive players out there, me being one of them I'm usually the one doing the chasing even in high ping or vs transed people.

 

[nihao]

IMO no game will ever be noob friendly unless it is not "pro" friendly, as soon as you give people who are better at a game an advantage, you automatically take away from new peoples ability to defend themselves, in ANY game.
starcraft is about speed, and rock paper sizors the game even comes with a "this beats that" chart, and if you just mass an army of the same unit you win, most effective stratagy for all races is their middle class units, or starter units i.e. tanks and mereines or goons and lots, or lings and hydras,
in 1.2 its all about basic melee and angle hits (and if your american turbo beam after the 3 hit), noobs fly in strait lines and get counterd easily and then get used for practice (its hard to make a bot that just flys in a strait line) so your gonna get chased. also, if any of the old pros follow suit (and be sure they will), the new game will be a whole new ballpark with the same mvps.
unfortunate for some, but if you dont have a reward for being bada** at a game like simply being able to pown people 50-0 or so, old players will not stay, and new players will get bored. the true fan base will die if its not challenging enough, especially after the previous versions. just like every other game.
I im looking forward to devoting way to much time to the game as soon as it is completed in hopes that i don't take 3 years to become pro, and if a whole lot of newbs leave, ill offer lessons as i do now in the hopes that they stay, but seriously its not gonna take long for people like ren to learn to abuse the basics and master defense, and people like me to learn off him if i don't beat him to it .
so again no "game" in life will ever be noob friendly if it is noone will play, if you cant dominate or at least have the hope to do so their is no reason to compete and it will never strive in peoples hearts as being worth devoting time and effort too. its like soccer vs hopscotch, or tether ball vs baseball or barny's adventures vs god of war, or virtualfighter vs Tekken.
unfortunely for esf most noobs are just lame, and unwilling to learn simple tactics, or they feel they need more transformations cause they really only like watching dbz to see ppl scream like theyr gonna crap themselves till they explode with power then stand still as they charge a beam for 3 episodes. this is not dbz its just folly of anime and manga abuse in the states its not about the game. or how hard it is.

 

[Mkilbride]

Earlier, I was in a game, 95-3. The man was Majin Buu, and had a PL is 8,000,000 transformed. Spamming him was impossible, as he always seemed to dodge easily, or a simple Generic-beam was enough to deflect a fully charged Gallick Gun from a SSJ Vegeta. =/

He blew the server up constantly with his Mouth Attack right after we spawned. We couldn't beat him in melee either as he always dodged, and when he Melee'd us, he could one hit us or spam it so fast we couldn't recover.

That's what I think they wanna get rid of. I know if yer skilled, you should be able to beat a player, but if 3 people are fighting one person and he's able to get 95-3, causing EVERYONE to leave...then yeah, it becomes not fun. When it clears out a server because one guy is SO good no one can beat him, not even by Beam spamming...then yeh.


I dunno, it's just lame when one player is so wtfbbq good, you think he must somehow be hacking.(Despite that not really being something that happens in ESF.)

It's much more fun of a game to play with someone who is yer equal. I dunno how he had fun dominating us 95-3, and beam-spamming, then taunting us and calling us noobs, but some people are like that.

 

[Renyori]

^ It's not hard to go 200-0 with Buu. That kind of spamming usually isn't allowed in servers and if an admin is there, the person would normally get booted.

@Gurbir - The style he's talking about is the style alot of players used to use back years ago. The typical run away style, drift around and only attack when the person sees a good time to do an angle or when he thinks his opponents ki is out.

 

[Disguise]

Earlier, I was in a game, 95-3. The man was Majin Buu, and had a PL is 8,000,000 transformed. Spamming him was impossible, as he always seemed to dodge easily, or a simple Generic-beam was enough to deflect a fully charged Gallick Gun from a SSJ Vegeta. =/

He blew the server up constantly with his Mouth Attack right after we spawned. We couldn't beat him in melee either as he always dodged, and when he Melee'd us, he could one hit us or spam it so fast we couldn't recover.

That's what I think they wanna get rid of. I know if yer skilled, you should be able to beat a player, but if 3 people are fighting one person and he's able to get 95-3, causing EVERYONE to leave...then yeah, it becomes not fun. When it clears out a server because one guy is SO good no one can beat him, not even by Beam spamming...then yeh.


I dunno, it's just lame when one player is so wtfbbq good, you think he must somehow be hacking.(Despite that not really being something that happens in ESF.)

It's much more fun of a game to play with someone who is yer equal. I dunno how he had fun dominating us 95-3, and beam-spamming, then taunting us and calling us noobs, but some people are like that.

I agree, and for that reason I made a suggestion that the SAM bar fill up faster for people with a lower PL. Either it fills up faster for lower PL, and/or it goes up slower for higher PL.

I'm not sure if you've considered this, but I think it would go a long way in balancing the differences in PLs here while not completely getting rid of its advantages; especially since you can always change the severity of the variation.

 

[sub]

Explosion radius and damage will be capped at a certain point.

 

[Disguise]

Explosion radius and damage will be capped at a certain point.

I hope that's partly what the SAM bar is used for. If you take away most of the damage and radius, I'd think most beam attacks could just be dodged at the last second with minor repercussions and never blocked, especially if people have 700 hp.

This way you can make normal KHH-like beam attacks capped, like you say, but also have one-time larger explosions that the opponent could be forced to block.

But this doesn't have much to do with noob-friendliness anymore does it? So I'll try to relate.

Like what everyone is saying, certain basics outside of the game must be mastered, such as mouse movement, to give an advantage. Then there's mechanics in the game that can be controlled to level it out, like limiting how much you can teleport at once.

Noobs don't spam teleport, only good players do, and they can do it really well. Noobs don't block, but good players can block almost every attack if they kite the opponent in their direction. EX: Falling, gliding, blocking from above. If teleporting too much drains stamina, and blocking too much reduces ki levels, then it would become easier to break their defense. So the stage is set for a more aggressive game instead of having a never-ending, flawless defense, which is what distinguishes a pro imo. Angle hits are great and all, but if your hits are evaded, blocked, or countered, then they don't matter. Turbo and block completely negates any damage done currently. So anyhow, noobs would only need to really get the hang of the aggressive end of the game to do well since they wouldn't be hitting a player and gaining no advantage constantly. If every hit did SOMETHING, like made the opponent even slightly less able to attack, then it would help. The charging of turbo will also play a factor in helping the aggressive side overpower the defensive side, I'm sure. So the idea would be that the best defense is a good offense?

The biggest curb stomp on noobs and any good player alike is the triple hit ki blast combo, which is essentially a way of saying, I got this one hit in, so now you're dead, and there's nothing you can do about it. When they gain power level at a faster rate from doing this to boot, it becomes more unbalanced and deadly. So since you've already added using stamina to recover quickly, there's no need to worry about that anymore, and that's the most important balance factor imo.

Same goes for spamming ki attacks, which is where that cap comes into play. The slower SAM bar progression against weaker opponents can prevent huge attacks against noobs who will always have the lower power level, regardless of how many hits they may score occasionally. Whereas two good players will have about the same PL, and the SAM bar will progress evenly.

This would also give a reason to fight in a lower state and THEN transform, so you could charge your SAM bar quicker or prevent the opponent from doing so, and then transform to unleash a deadly string of attacks and gain the upper-hand. It would distinguish certain advantages and playing styles based on temp-trans characters and permatrans. People who are all about the SAM bar might want to play SSJ. Players who are all about the actual game mechanics themselves and rely less so on it might want permatrans characters. A Frieza-type character that can gain advantages from transforming but gains less of a multiplier can have a little of both.

That's also why I think the SAM bar should be used for transformations as well, so that SSJ-type characters would NEED to have a certain SAM level before they can transform quickly, and that would be their disadvantage, whereas permatrans wouldn't need the SAM bar at all. Lets face it, a long transform in a fast-paced fighting match will just leave you open to get killed. So in this respect, without a transformation disadvantage, a temptrans character would have more diversity in how they choose to fight, where permatrans would seem limited in that respect since they're always maxed out.

Anyway, there's my long $#% post. I think you've already hammered the biggest imbalance out with the immediate recovery. I'm not sure if you've considered this SAM bar idea though. It sounds like a win-win to me. ^_^

 

[Grega]

The sam bar is filled and crained constantly. Its a special points bar. And those points can be spent to do Special attacks for more damage. Ofcourse beam specials means bigger blast radius and stuff like that.

 

[Disguise]

The sam bar is filled and crained constantly. Its a special points bar. And those points can be spent to do Special attacks for more damage. Ofcourse beam specials means bigger blast radius and stuff like that.

I see. I guess I saw it more as a long-term aspect in the fight, like the offensive counterpart of Stamina. But then again I think Stamina is more short-term than I thought as well.

Meh. :] Sorry for the irrelevant rambling then.

Is there a recently disclosed layout of how melee is going to work? You mentioned something about it before, I don't know if anything has come up.

 

[sub]

http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?t=73135

That's all there is I think