DREAM MATCH!??!

[Deverz]

Superman is DC ...

 

[hleV]

Superman is DC ...

Shows what I know, LOL.

 

[Z Power]

Not gonna argue about that, as ATM I'm not sure how to compare the light speed to this, but SSJ Gotenks (who I estimate to be not too far below or above SSJ3 Goku) displayed a nice speed.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7540/178jn.jpg

This is what I meant. The characters don't say it but it makes sense that they'd atleast have surpassed Light speed by now.

 

[Grega]

On the other hand you have superman flying round the earth so fast, that he began reversing time on the planet.

 

[Deverz]

Fi vs Navi (In annoyingness)

 

[Z Power]

On the other hand you have superman flying round the earth so fast, that he began reversing time on the planet.

Different universe, different rules. Goku has brought back more people to life using Dragonballs than Supes has reversing time.

 

[Deverz]

Different universe, different rules. Goku has brought back more people to life using Dragonballs than Supes has reversing time.

Grega is saying Supes has the ability to fly so fast around the earth he can reverse they way it spins and turn back time

 

[Renyori]

Different universe, different rules. Goku has brought back more people to life using Dragonballs than Supes has reversing time.

Bringing back people from the dead is using the Dragnballs power, not his own. It hasn't shown any DBZ character being able to survive the heat of the sun, characters like Cell insta melt there. Superman's heat vision rivals that of a star, it can fatally wound Goku. Thats a nice Gotenks feat but Supes going at the speed of light (he's gone faster) would travel the Earth's circumference in about 0.1 seconds.

ur assuming superman will be able to knock goku into orbit .... you are hilarious LOLOLOLO

You're right. Without Supes limiters he would just punch right through Goku instead of knocking him anywhere. Without his limiters he was capable of moving planets and holding black holes with just physical strength. Goku just doesn't have the power to harm Superman unless he somehow gets a hold of some kryptonite.

 

[Avenger]

This is what I meant. The characters don't say it but it makes sense that they'd atleast have surpassed Light speed by now.

Surpassing light speed in non-specific scenarios (as in, not neutrinos) requires an infinite amount of energy. It would have to be done through other means that involved "cheating", like pinching space or quantum teleportation in combination with quantum entanglement, or a worm-hole with different rules from those the universe usually sees.

 

[Zeonix]

I am pretty sure hleV could give much better factual evidence than someone who hasn't even finished watching Dbz, but still, I had to attempt this since there are a lot of issues with even comparing Supes and Goku. Also, I am about to turn this thread into a Goku vs Superman discussion. I am also about the incur the wrath of Emperor Zeonix, may he spare my soul.

For one, Supes is one of the most variable characters I've seen, from being unable to dodge bullets and lasers 1 2 3, to being able to immaterialize while standing still. From getting killed by Doomsday, to shrugging off punches from a fully angered Hulk. He folio ranges from getting pushed around by humans like Lex Luthor to defeating Gods (Dark Seid). It kinda becomes really hard to put a finger on what he can or cannot do. One second he can't lift a finger to defend against Kryptonite Batman, the very next he friggin survives a Nuclear Blast on an Island full of Kryptonite shards 1 2.

Even though the Dbz series really can't be said to have a realistic portrayal of strength development, there are atleast certain rules that the characters abide by. There is a limit to their current practical individual power. If you ignore the Transformations, you have a certain expectation of just how much damage they can deal and take. Nothing like that with Supes. He can destroy Solar Systems by sneezing, contain black holes using his bare hands, escape not just a single but double black holes 1 2 3 4 5. Its hard to match up against a hero who basically turns on God Mode whenever he feels like it.

However, in Dbz the Saiyans actually have one very special ability that has immense potential to destroy not only Supes, but anything ever (except Death). They don't have an upper power limit. They can basically keep on getting stronger and stronger and stronger until they die. While the Anime may not show it, it makes sense that there will come a time when after having their strenght increased exponentially so much, their own movement speed will exceed that of Instant Transmission. Again, I haven't seen Buu Saga so I am not sure if Goku even uses IT in SSJ3, or even that IT actually is limited by the speed of light.

Picollo was able to destroy the moon when his power level was a little above 1200. Goku's was 2,400,000,000,000 at SSJ3. And if he wanted, he could have single handedly destroyed Kid Buu, who had infinite Stamina and was nigh Indestructible, just like Supes. If Goku kept on Training, there will come a point where he'll surpass whatever imaginary limit Superman has, if he hadn't done so already in the manga. I am leaving GT out of this while discussion.

Basically, Supeman's abilities are all over the galaxy map, piting anything against him is blatantly stupid, simply because his new creators have given him God Mode. Remove that, Goku wins. Or use the Original Superman by Jerome Siegel and Joseph Shuster. It'll be the same either way.

Good day gents.

But that's precisely the point. Superman almost never fights with the fullest extent of his powers, because to do so would be to destroy the world he so desperately defends. In every scenario you've listed, his mental blocks were still very much in place and he really only ever pushes himself to be just strong enough to beat his enemy. Furthermore, Superman has shown that he simply can not die. Doomsday didn't kill him. Superman went into a coma after the fight, and awoke from it later on in the arc, revealing all of the other Supermen to be imposters. We can only base what we know of Superman and Goku on their source material, and time and again, Superman has shown himself to be a God. Because that's what he is. To compare Goku to Superman when he was first created is preposterous, because you're allowing an end-state Goku to fight against the first inception of a character. It is essential to understand that comic arcs represent a progression in the character's tale. And so Superman would be fighting Goku at his best, rather than at his absolute worst.

A saiyan's potential for combat is determined by his ability to heal from his wounds in the aftermath. In a fight against a pissed off Superman, red eyes and all, a fight where Superman understood one of them had to die, and Goku didn't have the best interests of the people of Earth in his heart a fight where Superman no longer limited himself for the sake of others, there would be no time to heal. Goku's absolute destruction and murder would be so swift and so complete that he'd never have the opportunity to even compete with the living God that is Superman. On the other hand, Goku regularly fights at his absolute maximum and finds himself lacking.

IT is most definitely limited by the speed of light, because it isn't superluminal travel. It's his ability to fold space momentarily and go from point A to point Z in what seems like an instant. It probably isn't, as a result of time dilation.

To remove Godmode is to dismantle what makes Superman who he is. It is his godhood that separates him from the rest of humanity, that keeps him from ever fully integrating and being anything more than a savior. You may as well remove Goku's ability to fight, leaving a character really good at getting his ass kicked, and becoming a better punching bag with every beating.

 

[Heron]

IT is most definitely limited by the speed of light, because it isn't superluminal travel. It's his ability to fold space momentarily and go from point A to point Z in what seems like an instant. It probably isn't, as a result of time dilation.

I thought space-time was already folded since the big bang? Then that would mean Goku infact doesnt have that ability but has the ability to travel faster than the speed of light. By analogy (or symbology) we find the Z fighters have the strength of a star (luminous sphere of plasma held together by gravity; *taken from wikipedia*), the size of this star also represents the power/matter with in it. Transformations in DBZ represent the star cycles. The moves such as 'big bang attack' is also another proof for this correlation. The ability to destroy in-the-way planets when it wants to by releasing deadly solar flares. A star can also be reborn with the smallest matter left which also can be found in the DBZ series. Only difference would be that one has free will and intellect which relates to the human side of Goku.

Superman by analogy represents nothing more than a hero only capable up to the point of human imagination. The human mind cannot think in terms of light years/planetary size/galatic infrastructure and so on.

In conclusion, Superman hasn't got the ability to stay 'super' without the kypronite, a star with its intense heat can change what ever molecular structure it has by simply consuming it.

 

[Zeonix]

Nothing in your post makes sense, so I'm just going to say if you're suggesting Goku is a star, his very presence is overcharging Superman, making Goku's defeat inevitable.

Also, DBZ is a metaphor for why nukes suck, so there's that.

 

[Heron]

Nothing in your post makes sense, so I'm just going to say if you're suggesting Goku is a star, his very presence is overcharging Superman, making Goku's defeat inevitable.

Also, DBZ is a metaphor for why nukes suck, so there's that.

So you say my post doesnt make sense yet you find exactly what i meant.

 

[Zeonix]

I'm infallible. I could have said you were comparing Goku to the false dichotomy of gender and how he is the metaphorical manifestation of a being that combines both male and female mental processes to create the ultimate person, and it would have echoed into the past, changing the post and your intent to reflect my opinion.

That said, your post is still absolutely ridiculous and adds slightly less than nothing to the debate. And that's why you're Jinx.

 

[Heron]

I haven't even started my counter argument for you to name it 'ridiculous'. What are you planning?
If you know something other than 'a star charges superman', than you should probably tell me now otherwise I'd just be wasting my time adding opinions backed up with evidence into the debate.

 

[MickeyG]

Nothing in your post makes sense, so I'm just going to say if you're suggesting Goku is a star, his very presence is overcharging Superman, making Goku's defeat inevitable.

Also, DBZ is a metaphor for why nukes suck, so there's that.

Goku will learn a kryptonite kamehameha... thats enough!

 

[Zeonix]

I haven't even started my counter argument for you to name it 'ridiculous'. What are you planning?
If you know something other than 'a star charges superman', than you should probably tell me now otherwise I'd just be wasting my time adding opinions backed up with evidence into the debate.

Read our posts. Then read your post. Explain the relevance to me. Then make your counter argument. This way, I can shoot two dodos with one cruise missile and not have to wait for posts like the above where you stall like an episode of dbz.

 

[Heron]

Read our posts. Then read your post. Explain the relevance to me. Then make your counter argument. This way, I can shoot two dodos with one cruise missile and not have to wait for posts like the above where you stall like an episode of dbz.

looool

The fact is when I say by analogy or symbology. I don't actually mean that Goku is our sun. Rather he is a representation of it, so to tell me that Goku depends on the existance of stars would be wrong. But like you point out Superman relies on the existance of a star. Get the picture? Blow up the stars and you blow up superman.

Simple as that.


PS: Not to be geeky, but seeing as how Goku was the strongest warrior, his powerlevel could be equivalent to VY Canis Majoris which is the largest known star, this also is proof for Goku's powerlevel being over 1bn more than his original by just comparing this star to our sun.

[video=youtube;HEheh1BH34Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34Q&feature=related[/video]

 

[Zeonix]

Yep. Jinx, alright.

Daredevil vs. Batman in cqc.

 

[Z Power]

To compare Goku to Superman when he was first created is preposterous, because you're allowing an end-state Goku to fight against the first inception of a character. It is essential to understand that comic arcs represent a progression in the character's tale. And so Superman would be fighting Goku at his best, rather than at his absolute worst.

Thats just the thing, the character progression hasn't been brought about by the original creators. There have been so many renditions of him, he's been practically given every insane power imaginable. And ofcourse Buu Saga Goku vs Original Supes would be a completely unbalanced match, but even taking Goku from a time where his strength or "power level" would rival that of Supes, he'd still win for the sake of having his rigorous Martial training.

A saiyan's potential for combat is determined by his ability to heal from his wounds in the aftermath. In a fight against a pissed off Superman, red eyes and all, a fight where Superman understood one of them had to die, and Goku didn't have the best interests of the people of Earth in his heart a fight where Superman no longer limited himself for the sake of others, there would be no time to heal. Goku's absolute destruction and murder would be so swift and so complete that he'd never have the opportunity to even compete with the living God that is Superman. On the other hand, Goku regularly fights at his absolute maximum and finds himself lacking.

A Saiyan's growth involves more than just getting beat up and than get stronger afterwards. That is just one of their Racial traits. Another big one is that they just get stronger by fighting. Every fight, whether they win, lose or are currently in makes them stronger. What I intended with that is not that Goku will heal after getting beat up by Supes, that is a big no no with what he is capable of. Instead I meant that if you take Goku from a much future timeline after Dbz, and ignore that Dbgt ever happened, there will come a point when he'll be a match for Superman. If he isn't already.

IT is most definitely limited by the speed of light, because it isn't superluminal travel. It's his ability to fold space momentarily and go from point A to point Z in what seems like an instant. It probably isn't, as a result of time dilation.

Like I said, with what his power reaches in the end of Buu Saga, Goku's movement using his own energy should have surpassed that of IT. I really don't know all the technical limitations to Light Speed, but if Superman can surpass it using his strength, I assume Goku would be able to as well.

To remove Godmode is to dismantle what makes Superman who he is. It is his godhood that separates him from the rest of humanity, that keeps him from ever fully integrating and being anything more than a savior. You may as well remove Goku's ability to fight, leaving a character really good at getting his ass kicked, and becoming a better punching bag with every beating.

Well if thats the case, you just can't defeat someone who is, for all intents and purposes, invincible. All the multitude of his creators have basically ended up making an unbeatable character with just one weakness to allow for storytelling. When someone is that unbeatable, why would you even pit him or her against anyone else? Superman abilities don't follow any logic, even in his own universe. So God Mode it is. And the match has been cancelled.