Discussion: Scripting/Exploiting

[Carnage the 1]

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Play on your own server.

Also your being unbelievable hypocrite.
People should respect unwritten rules and you script to win?

You are saying: "I dont play to win", but you use scripts only for one purposes, being faster, stronger and basically winning. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>


I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree. I never made this script to win, it was meant to mimic 1.1 swooping, if I wanted to win, I'd use 90 other scripts while I was at it. In fact, I could probably find an aimbot or speedhack, but no, anyone who does know me also knows I don't need it to win so don't jump to conclusions cos you just tripped while doing so.

Scripts come forth out of something that either doesn't work well or about getting an upper hand. Let's take 1.1 for example, what kind of script would you use there? A tele script? A mousewheel works just as great so there is no need to do that. Besides that, it was a waste of ki if you missed and could easily get you killed. An arrow script was made to make the arrows unblockable while doing nothing yourself except the press of a button. A swoopscript merely decreased the time to swoop forward. If swooping wasn't a problem, the script would not be needed in the first place and if arrows couldn't be so badly exploited, the script would also lose it's effect.

I think you could say that the amount of scripts determine if a game is well made or not. If the game is well balanced and has a solid structure, scripts should not be needed to accomplish something. You could script switching weapons, shoot once and switch again, but as long as you can do it as fast without a script, it doesn't give you a real edge thus making the script lose it's effect. Beta 1.0/1.1 never had much of a problem with scripters, except for those who couldn't bypass it. The result is a tele delay which basically screwed up the game. By making swoop double tap, you're asking for problems. The team knows what HL1 can do and that script can be made but either overlooked it or didn't care. The problem that came forth out of that is this, scripting is now apparantly also a problem in ESF.

Being cheap doesn't always mean being smarter. If you find a weakness, go for it, that's strategic but if you have to use exploits to CREATE a weakness, you're just not doing things right. That exploit wasn't supposed to be there, thus creating a gap in gameplay which the designers overlooked. If it's "lame", it's lame for a reason, because it's unblockable, uncounterable and just a pain in the ass. If anyone has to create a weakness by exploiting a flaw in the design, they deserve to be frowned upon. It also created an unfair advantage as much as an aimbot, those who don't know about it can't do a thing. Those who do know about it can't do much about simply because it's not in their power to do so.

Somerandomguy proves my point, if everybody has the script at their disposal there would be no advantages. If you create the game in a way that destroys the effect of a script, there are no unfair advantages thus creating a solid game. You can't ban scripts, but you can decrease their usefulness, especially as a game designer.
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[Jinks]

^^^^
my point exactly

We need to decrease the usefulness of the scripts...thats all. I understand why scripts are used. I fully understand it, but its an unfair advantage to the people that don't have access to them. If it was even across the board then it would be fine. Seph I know why you and the others use scripts and truly I symphasize with the reasoning. I get all your points, but you cannont grasp the fact that you have an advantage over said person that doesn't have them. I understand the hey everyone can get them so it shouldn't be unfair.....trust me I do, but the problem lies in the fact that not everyone can get them because not everyone can program them.

 

[Sephize]

^^^^
my point exactly

We need to decrease the usefulness of the scripts...thats all. I understand why scripts are used. I fully understand it, but its an unfair advantage to the people that don't have access to them. If it was even across the board then it would be fine. Seph I know why you and the others use scripts and truly I symphasize with the reasoning. I get all your points, but you cannont grasp the fact that you have an advantage over said person that doesn't have them. I understand the hey everyone can get them so it shouldn't be unfair.....trust me I do, but the problem lies in the fact that not everyone can get them because not everyone can program them.

Everyone can program these scripts. U learned how to play ESF didn't u? the same goes for these scripts. Also I really don't need to u to symphatize with me.

 

[sub]

Everyone can, but why should we have to? I don't want to change the way I play just because people like you can't stand to lose.

 

[Sephize]

Everyone can, but why should we have to? I don't want to change the way I play just because people like you can't stand to lose.

I don't want to change the way I play just because u want to be a lamer either.

 

[sub]

Yeah, too bad I'm not a lamer when I play. This whole thing stems because people are babies and don't want to lose. The lame tactics is because of exactly that and you're scripting is because of that. Bottom line, grow up, accept the fact that you're not the best, and stop ruining the game for others.

 

[Optimus Prime]

How about we all step away from the personal attacks and comments? I will not hesitate to close this thread if you guys can't discuss the topic in a civilized manner without berating eachother.

 

[Carnage the 1]

Yay, peptalk by sub!

Face it, it doesn't work that way. Ignoring them goes only so far till you're confronted with these people everywhere you go. Now america might now have this problem due to a major amount of players, but in europe there is only a small group that is worth mentioning and even a smaller group that plays in a friendly way.

 

[somerandomguy]

^^^^
my point exactly

We need to decrease the usefulness of the scripts...thats all. I understand why scripts are used. I fully understand it, but its an unfair advantage to the people that don't have access to them. If it was even across the board then it would be fine. Seph I know why you and the others use scripts and truly I symphasize with the reasoning. I get all your points, but you cannont grasp the fact that you have an advantage over said person that doesn't have them. I understand the hey everyone can get them so it shouldn't be unfair.....trust me I do, but the problem lies in the fact that not everyone can get them because not everyone can program them.

I could very easily make a script, add the ability to bind it within the game menu, and pop it into a zip for easy install. Heck to be honest I've already started work on it and hope this discussion will allow a public release. Though as a fairly new player I'm stuck on ideas for functions beyond swoop and teleswoop options. Though those options have come along very nicely with options to have a toggle mode or hold a key for the function.

The problem is who would host it with the way scripts are viewed within this community. It really is getting annoying though that I have to put up with people ingame that abuse bugs AND scripts. I mean all the while I'm sitting there thinking that I could very easily take away their script advantage by writing one of my own, but then would I get booted or blacklisted in some way?

 

[Sephize]

So far I have not been banned from any servers. As long as u admit using a script, there should be no problem whatsoever.

When you're done with it, can I have it?

 

[somerandomguy]

That is the idea...make them available for anyone who wants them. Though for them to be easily available it would need to either be on this site or esfworld. I wouldn't want the script to turn into script hoarding session like I spoke of earlier. BTW any Ideas for functions beyond swoop/teleswoop? If so just pm them to me.

 

[Sephize]

Maybe I can find a site for it then. Otherwise I can always make a fserve on irc for people to download it from.

 

[nsw316]

Blocking to Adv Melee then Turbo Charged Beamjump 90 damage ftw!! Now I know everyone out there would agree that this is cheap except maybe a few ppl. But theres also the since youre being cheap I'm going to be cheap too, and if someone was being cheap to me earlier then I'm going to be cheap to you now.

In my experience people find ways to beat the game at all costs- why? Because it isn't any fun losing. It fun when the game gets close you both are at 9 kills and bam you get that 10th kill for the win, but it's not fun losing. People may say good fight nowadays but thats a common courtesy, or at least in America/Canada it is.

If people didn't have a problem losing there wouldn't be a reason to cheat or give youself an advantage.

Swoop scripts, wow. You players obviously don't want to get your hands hurt and crank down on that keyboard, I mean my wrist sounds like a sidewalk grinder when I circle it. (and yet I still play- funny.)

Well since the majority of people that are responding in this are 1.1 players let's recall the HOWing and LSMing. Of course it was cheap, other players were doing it- in fact almost every player I played did except Mrs. Alea- Now because people were doing this Mr Satan's Script came out and publicized that whole 20 million teleport thing, but like people have said if you missed you were done.

And with that, thats when I saw the AIMbots come out of the woodworks. You had Devil and his gang, you had suspisions in Europe and you had crap on the forums like you do now. The fact of the matter is that ESF is a beta and that means it wont be perfected no matter how much you ***** in the thread.

But these scripts and exploits only come out when someone has that "lame unbeatable" style. It's only when someone gets smacked down off their high and mighty chair by something that kicked their ass so hard that it had to be lame. I mean I agree throwing is lame I rarely do it or do it if someone does it to me but its close to 90-100 damage being taken off. If you can outswoop the other player and get that throw in with enough Ki my hats off, But if you just basically LSM to get it then you haven't moved forward since 1.1 . And being that most of you have Zeonix's quote in your signatures you really don't want to move on from 1.1

Scripting/exploiting

Ok heres the situation: Its a match- no let's make it a league match of some sort- ok so you're goku and your opponent is cell. You have the mindset of playing fairly and respectably. Your opponent is thinking I'm going to do what ever I want to win. So you start it out and he out maneuvers you and throws you, you now have 20 HP from your 110. You get your insignificant basic melee hits off and bam he has 105 HP he beam jumps around and gets you with a well placed beam. 1-0 him/her. Round 2 starts you come at him full force swooping and teleporting insanely fast, you see your chance to hit him you nail him- or atleast you think you did. He blocked and countered you with advanced melee. You're now being swung and your game pace has slowed. But wait he didn't have enough ki to throw you so you break apart. You rush after him and bam he smacked you with a beamjump.

Now can you not say that that was a lame fight? or atleast thus far. Now what if I were to tell you that because "Cell" was blocking and beamjumping "goku" started using an aimbot? is cheating? -yes. but what if he didnt need an aimbot but a script, maybe one so taht he can have a long chain swoop to get away or even a charge up script- is he cheating? no of course not it's all in the game right? so therefore it must not be cheating.

If YOU have to counter a game style with scripts go ahead this game is made for your entertainment. When you don't think you can get on top without them thens it's ok. Yea it's perfectly fine to script and use a lame exploit or something else if you need to because this game is just so important.

Sure scripting is lame and I would probably be using one if I was well educated in that sort of thing but I'm not so I don't, I just know the game and how it works. And then the game side. sure exploiting is lame and so are other factors in the game too but when noobs say melee is lame do you get in a heated argument with them? No because they don't know any better.

Lets quote Mr Linkin Parks ftw.

I tried
so hard

And got so far
But in the end
It doesn't even matter
I had to fall
To lose it all
But in the end
It doesn't even matter

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

When I was trying to make a point to Joe about scripts back in 1.2 testing days I took about 4 minutes to create a script that would immediately power me back up after every teleport so that I could essentially teleport indefinitely without running out of ki (and staying within the tele delay). I was a better player when I used it because I didn't have to think about hitting power up, I didn't have to time how long I held it down, there was no user error involved, only free ki. People couldn't do it with perfect efficiency without a script, because at some point you'd screw up, either charging too long, or teleporting too fast, and that is when your opponent nails you; that is User Error, which is what seperates people who can play from people who are great. Great players have less user error than new players, just like people who are highly trained in one area have less errors performing their job than somebody who just walked in. The problem then becomes that somebody could easily duplicate my charge/tele script and send it to everybody, and where does the user error go? All of a sudden a decent player becomes a solid player simply because he doesn't have to think about what he's doing, his script lets him work at 100% efficiency whenever he wants to teleport.

Yes, there is more to the game than teleportation, but it's a huge part of the game, and there are other scripts for other areas of the game as well. Once you have a tele script, a swoop script, and presuming you are simply slow at the keyboard, an advanced melee script, there isn't much left to 'improve' at aside from adjusting your mouse sensitivity and acting on what you see more quickly. When you start to systematically eliminate all the parts of the game where you can screw up, you slowly start pushing the new players and the experienced players closer together. If I've heard one single consistent argument about 1.2 it is that it's easier for people to get into, and that it feels like you can only improve so much before you hit a glass cieling. This is one reason for that.

People constantly complain that the game is faulty because the double tap swoop is server side and the tele delay is difficult because you click frantically and don't go anywhere, but I haven't seen anybody step up and point out that how consistently you can pull off a smooth high speed teleport across the map or a swoop without screwing up is a direct sign of how effective you are at playing the game. I've never had an issue with the double tap swoop that I couldn't blame on my own timing. The timing changes on each server based on latency, but I've never had a problem adapting, except on those rare occurances where an entire server jumped up to 600 ping, and even then I manage to get it working half-assedly.

Scripts are specifically designed to eliminate those parts of the game that you have a problem with, and usually because you blame the people who designed the game for implamented a 'bad feature' in the first place to justify it. I guarentee if you practice at it you'll be swooping and teleporting more consistently, and you might even find some fun tele combos that you can train your brain to pull off without working it into your .cfg . The team implamented the tele delay to damage tele scripts, and I'm sure they'll find ways to sabotage similar 'custom content' in the future, for now you just have to live with the fact that scripts are easy to create, and they are out there. On the other side of the fence, if you use a script, you have to live with the fact they aren't appreciated.


Note that exploits are not something that removes a difficult part of the game, it is simply something that gives an unfair advantage to someone who cannot work around it, and is considered universally unfair. The grey area, then, becomes how you define an exploit that is abused be a script, such as a script designed to block and then immediately swoop forward to advanced melee someone. Unfair, and zero user error. It becomes ridiculous.

 

[somerandomguy]

Sonic Boyster-

A good post and believe me for the most part I feel the same way. Though I totally disagree with one area of your post completely.

"The team implamented the tele delay to damage tele scripts, and I'm sure they'll find ways to sabotage similar 'custom content' in the future, for now you just have to live with the fact that scripts are easy to create, and they are out there. On the other side of the fence, if you use a script, you have to live with the fact they aren't appreciated."

My problem with this is in two areas. The major one being that they will sabotage attempts at scripting thats great, really, but how much sabotage can they do before they start hurting the people who aren't scripting? In a lot of areas it doesn't matter how much you sabotage it can be worked around...so in the end you are just putting more limits on people without scripts. I believe the solution is simply to accept scripts to some extent or make the default game not require them in the first place. I know I know that second part is much easier said then done.

My second problem with that statement is the grin and bear it impression it seems to give. It seems like you are saying...don't script just grin and bear the inhuman reflexes which you don't have, but will come across. Then you turn to say that scripters aren't appreciated....Which side is getting the short end of the stick here?

All most people are saying is they would like to even up the playing field a little. I mean lets face it how can they be stopped? At least when the playing field is evened it will come down to who is a better player with what they have instead of trying to fight inhuman reflexes with human reflexes.

 

[Sephize]

Since I'm too lazy to answer to both of ur posts and I already took so many things out of both ur stories in my previous posts, I'll take some out:

Sonic Boyster: Imo ur script is a ****ing joke! I cannot see how it would work, basicly with that u sometimes do not have time to do a chargeup, even with a script. Please think better about scripts and how to use them. I could easily take u out in a lot of ways if u used that script.

Another thing is that a script cannot react to its surroundings. It just simply cannot be done. A program could though. This takes out ur statement of a script being able to perform blocklame automatically. It is clear to me that u do not have as much experience in scripting as u seem to think u have.

U cannot overcome the lameness of some playingstyles. I doubt u have ever fought someone that only does generic beamspam and blocklame during a match.

Now onto u nsw316: Due to the fact that the league has banned scripts from being used in the league, I do not participate in the league.

U say I'm *****ing in this thread? Look at u. U are also replying to this thread. Mod anywhere?

I always go into any arguement. If a noob has a problem with me, he can talk all he wants. If he's not good enough to beat me, I will keep killing him until he gets that he can't be calling me a noob and that he should read more before starting an arguement with me.

I always use the script nowadays. It's written in userconfig.cfg.

That quote of "Mr. Linkin Parks" is misplaced.

The rest of ur replies have already been commented on by me in previous posts. I suggest u read them. You two have a nice day.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

Eh taking me out while I do something that offers no delay greater than that which is already enstated and is easily canceled is going to be difficult. Besides, note that scripts are optional. It's possible for me to bind two buttons to teleport, one using my script, which I also had done at the time, meaning when I want the advantage it is there at the touch of a button.

And yes, I've gone up against people who just used generic beams and all kinds of other horrible things. I didn't comment on them in my post, so I don't know what point you were making. Also, I do not have that much experience in scripting, which goes 10 meters further in pressing my point. If it only took me a handful of minutes to create a script out of thin air that gave me a noticeable advantage, imagine what someone like you could do if you used creativity in the process.

Edit- I'm also going to ask you nicely, as a moderator, to try to be more civil about pressing your points. There's no reason to act rude every time you respond to us, you can just answer the questions and let your arguments defend themselves.

 

[Sephize]

Eh taking me out while I do something that offers no delay greater than that which is already enstated and is easily canceled is going to be difficult. Besides, note that scripts are optional. It's possible for me to bind two buttons to teleport, one using my script, which I also had done at the time, meaning when I want the advantage it is there at the touch of a button.

And yes, I've gone up against people who just used generic beams and all kinds of other horrible things. I didn't comment on them in my post, so I don't know what point you were making. Also, I do not have that much experience in scripting, which goes 10 meters further in pressing my point. If it only took me a handful of minutes to create a script out of thin air that gave me a noticeable advantage, imagine what someone like you could do if you used creativity in the process.

Edit- I'm also going to ask you nicely, as a moderator, to try to be more civil about pressing your points. There's no reason to act rude every time you respond to us, you can just answer the questions and let your arguments defend themselves.

Hmm binding teleport on 2 keys... That would be rather... pointless or make it more confusing anyway. It's also hard to time where to use the script and where not to in a battle. I still think it's a waste of coding. It would make it like gambling as far as I can tell from ur explenation of the coding.

So u actually had to go up against someone like Roshi huh? How'd that go? 10-0 for the lamer?

Last but not least: flattery will get u nowhere :devgrin:

Correct me if I'm wrong but he did say "no matter how much you ***** in the thread. ", are u saying that wasn't rude? I'm already really trying to hold back on any insults. tbh I think I'm doing a pretty good job so far and have only crossed the line once in a reply to Ravendust. That is to say a line that noone has crossed on me before in this thread.

 

[somerandomguy]

Yes please lets keep it civil I would hate for this thread to be locked. You can certainly all have different views it doesn't make you right or wrong. All you can really do is explain why you hold the view you do and hope that the other parties can see and understand your reasoning.

You know I'm a little surprised this thread hasn't been more active though. I mean I have pretty much asked if I should release a script package for public download.

 

[sub]

You know I'm a little surprised this thread hasn't been more active though. I mean I have pretty much asked if I should release a script package for public download.

Please don't. It would make things far worse for players who want to play legit...