Sub's Suggestion Thread

[sub]

I'm going to address every part of the game that I feel needs to be addressed. I have little faith in 1.3 actually being completed, but I want to do this for the sake of doing it. The main theme of these ideas will be to streamline the game / make it simple and easy to learn. If you feel any parts of this are going against that theme, point it out. Moving on

Movement
Swooping
In order to initiate a swoop, one turns on turbo. Once turbo is on, moving in any direction will start a swoop in that direction.
- To chainswoop, one holds down a different direction in the middle of a swoop
- Releasing the movement key will stop the swoop.
- If the player is not holding any direction down while turbo is on, the player stands still.
- Swooping will use up slightly less ki than it does in 1.2 in the first form.
- Pressing the flymode button (f by default) will result in the player exiting swoop mode and drifting. In case you're unaware, drifting is when one freefalls while moving forward
- Teleporting in the middle of a swoop will exit swoopmode and teleport the player once in the direction they were moving

Jumping
Jumping should work the same as it is now, with three exceptions.
- Jumping will cost no ki
- When one gets hit into a wall and must walljump to get off, the walljump should be done automatically. People new to the game are not aware that by simply holding jump, they can avoid plummeting to the ground / their death. Making it automatic streamlines the game and provides one less thing for players to learn.
- By that same token, when one gets knocked into the ground head on, instead of requiring a player to hold jump before hitting the ground, this is also done automatically.

Teleporting
- The first teleport will have no teleport delay, as the first teleport delay serves no purpose (in 1.3 already?)
- Teleporting in the middle of a swoop will exit swoopmode and teleport the player once in the direction they were moving
- Teleporting should cost a little less ki than it currently does in the normal form.
- Teleporting will cost the same amount of ki for all characters and will take players the same distance for all characters in all forms. Please, do not do as ECX did and have a custom teleport range / kicost for all characters.
- Currently in the open beta, when you teleport while standing still, nothing happens, other than you making the teleport sound and your ki being wasted. Change it back to what happens in 1.2 (You teleport directly up).

Powerlevel / Transformations
Powerlevel is broken in 1.2. The game rewards those that are good by making it easier for them. We need a complete overhaul of powerlevel. This is what I've come up with, but if you have a better idea, please, by all means share

Tiered powerlevel system
Let's say for example that there are 4 tiers. When a player deals out x amount of damage, he can move onto the next tier. In tier 1, players are only allowed to be in normal form. In tier 2, players are allowed to go SSJ. In tier 3, players are allowed to go SSJ2. In tier 3, players are allowed to go SSJ3. Tier 4 SSJ4.
- Damage is always the same in these tiers. A kamehameha will always do x amount of damage in tier 1 for example.
- To help those that are new to the game, if a player has x deaths more than his kill count, he can move onto tier 2, if he has 2x amount more than his kill count in tier two, he can move to tier 3, etc.

This system does three things better than the current system. It allows those that are in the same tier to be on equal footing, it's a lot more straightforward than the current system, and it will allow those that are generally of no harm to the server to transform, which will hopefully help them stick with the game. Again, I'm open to alternate systems if you can think of a better one.

Transformations
In 1.2, when someone transforms, they gain 2x the PL, speed, and Ki. Powerlevel won't be that big of a deal anymore if the tiered system is put in place, but we still have the issues of one doubling their speed and ki upon transforming.
- A players speed should still increase upon transforming, I don't particularly think that this is a problem, but..
- A player gaining double the ki upon transforming is ridiculous. When someone transforms, swooping, teleporting and beaming should all use more ki, not less as it currently does
- The higher you are transformed, the more ki moving around / doing moves should use. For example, if a player is SSJ3, everything will require more ki to perform. This balances the game as well as models DBZ's SSJ's ki drain effect.
- When in SSJ3, a players kibar should slowly drain.

Simple Melee
I think that the team already decided on what their doing with simple melee, but for the hell of it, here goes
- Keep simple melee in the game
- Ground Damage: Ridiculously unbalanced. A lot of people play with the rules three hits max, meaning you can do one hit in the air and two ground hits. This deals a ridiculous amount of damage. For the sake of balance, hitting someone while their on the ground should do normal damage.
- Hitting someone in the back will cause more damage to the person, as well as cause him to knock back further
- The default knockback range should be further out, roughly the distance of two teleports. In 1.2, it's assumed that if you get a hit on someone, it will be two hits, it takes the skill out of performing combos on people.
- Remove the 2 hit max in the air. Combined with the fact that the knockback range will be the distance of two teleports, this will put some skill into combos again.

The Camera
Alright, I'm going to come out and say it - The default camera view sucks. It's too close, no one who is good at the game actually keeps the camera at its default view. I'm going to propose two things
- Make the default camera view further out, roughly equivalent to holding down K until the camera stops in 1.2.
- A lot of pros won't like this, but **** them - Don't let players change their camera view. Remove Cam_Idealdist and all of those commands. I don't want some people having an advantage just because they've figured out the optimal camera view. Everyone should be on equal grounds for this one

Flying Upside Down
On a slightly related subject, why can't I fly upside down? I should be able to move my mouse so far up that eventually I'm upside down. It's probably the one area BFP beats out ESF

Spec Mode
Spec mode is one of the most used features in 1.2. Whenever anyone has a 1 v 1, everyone goes into Spec Mode. The problem with this mode is that you don't see the actual point of view of the player you're specing. When specing, you should see exactly what the player you're specing sees, plus the little spec bar on the bottom of course. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but due to the amount of time people spend in spectator mode, it really is.

Miscellaneous Ideas
Radar
- Only one radar mode (Already in 1.3???)
- Radar is on by default (Already in 1.3!)
- I want to know who I'm looking at by simply moving my mouse near this person. I don't want the words to appear in the middle of the screen. It should look something like this, except prettier
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6282/esfcellgames00041152x8646og.jpg

Stamina
No. Seriously, take this out of 1.3.

Tutorial
There's supposedly going to be a tutorial in 1.3, but this is how it should work.
- Place a tutorial button on the start menu. Clicking it would start a single player game in esf_cell_games. Text would pop up welcoming the person to esf and telling them the controls of the game, as well as the basic functions (ie: how to melee, walljump, etc).

So a box will show up telling the player how to recharge. The player recharges, and another box shows up congratulating the player. This new box will then tell the player how to perform a swoop. The player performs a swoop, and another box appears, congratulating the player, and telling him how to etc.

After the person gets through all the actions, a bot should be implemented on the easiest difficulty level with a text box saying something like "now lets try what you've just learned". The player fights the bot, if he wins, a menu comes up asking him whether he wants to up the difficultly level of the bot or play the bot again. If he loses, everyones health goes back to full and he tries again.

Pop Up Tips
In addition to a tutorial, the game should have pop up tips. By this, I mean that when one is playing ESF, in the bottom right hand corner, a small box should appear every 5 minutes with a different tip for the player. There should be an option in the main menu to turn this off.
- If the players name is still esfn00b (or whatever 1.3's default name will be), have a pop up appear telling him to play the tutorial.

Duel Mode
Copy Jedi Knight Outcast / Academies Duel System, please. When two players are in a duel, only advanced / simple melee should be allowed. It's honestly a much needed feature.

Kiblasts
I love Kiblasts, I really do, but their a tad overpowered in 1.2. Make them deal 1 damage like they did in 1.1.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Advanced Melee
I'm going to make another thread for this, because this post is becoming pretty long. I'll get around to typing it out in a day or two.

And that's all for now. Most of the ideas listed here were just random thoughts I had while ingame. Theres a few things in which I forgot, but this is a start. If you read through my post, I congratulate you.

 

[DaRkOwNs]

the points i AGREE on (capitalized for emphasis).

Stamina
No. Seriously, take this out of 1.3.

stamina is possibly the worst idea the team has come up with. (no offense, team). its just gonna restrict gameplay too quick bursts of 5 second melee. i'd get more action out of a trading card game.

Simple Melee
I think that the team already decided on what their doing with simple melee, but for the hell of it, here goes
- Keep simple melee in the game
- Ground Damage: Ridiculously unbalanced. A lot of people play with the rules three hits max, meaning you can do one hit in the air and two ground hits. This deals a ridiculous amount of damage. For the sake of balance, hitting someone while their on the ground should do normal damage.
- Hitting someone in the back will cause more damage to the person, as well as cause him to knock back further
- The default knockback range should be further out, roughly the distance of two teleports. In 1.2, it's assumed that if you get a hit on someone, it will be two hits, it takes the skill out of performing combos on people.
- Remove the 2 hit max in the air. Combined with the fact that the knockback range will be the distance of two teleports, this will put some skill into combos again.

well, he explained it pretty well. the "hit, hit, ki blast" combo is getting old, in any case.

Duel Mode
Copy Jedi Knight Outcast / Academies Duel System, please. When two players are in a duel, only advanced / simple melee should be allowed. It's honestly a much needed feature.

this is a suggestion that will set ESF apart from any mod that will ever be created. the one thing that anyone can agree as the most annoying part of the game is back attacking. given the choice to do a duel in a pub is the best thing you can ever do for a melee-based game.

if you DO, in fact, hibernate in a tortoise shell the Jedi Knight: Jedi outcast/academy games have it so that if you face a person and press a button youll initiate a duel challenge. if that person takes notice of your challenge, faces you, and presses their own button the duel will start. in the duel EVERYONE either greys out, or all player models disappear for he duration of the duel. you cannot be hit by anyone other than your opponent. as such, only melee is allowed (or in JKA, saber combat).

Pop Up Tips
In addition to a tutorial, the game should have pop up tips. By this, I mean that when one is playing ESF, in the bottom right hand corner, a small box should appear every 5 minutes with a different tip for the player. There should be an option in the main menu to turn this off.
- If the players name is still esfn00b (or whatever 1.3's default name will be), have a pop up appear telling him to play the tutorial.

an idea thats been being tossed around for quite a while and im surprised its not in already. you should probably outline the tutorial though, sub.

well, i agree with everything sub said, except for the tier system. it seems a little too complicated.

 

[sub]

I don't think the tier system is that complicated. It would essentially get rid of PL, replacing it with numbers, 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Tier 1 = Your normal form
Tier 2 = You can go SSJ
Tier 3 = You can go SSJ2
Tier 4 = You can go SSJ3

All damage is constant in each tier. A kamehameha will always do 20 damage when in tier 1, just as a generic beam will always do 5 damage in tier 1 (Made up numbers, but you get the idea).

If you want to transform, you need to dish out a certain amount of damage in order for you to move up to tier 2.

 

[Zeonix]

I'll explain my version of the tier system. Within each tier are sub-tiers. In order to reach the next sub-tier, you have to rack up x amount of damage in total. Once you've made your way to the top of that specific tier, you're granted a transformation, and then the process starts over once again, although I suspect people would want the values to be slightly higher due to the increased damage of a SSJ or what have you. The tier system is actually quite simple. Fight, do damage, "level up" enough times to reach the next level. No, I don't want to see "LEVELED UP!!!!!!" anywhere nor do I want to turn ESF into an RPG. The reason for choosing damage given rather than number of kills is because you may have hyenas following you, waiting to steal your kills.

The PL system that we have now is completely unfair and frustrating to anyone who isn't great at the game. So basically, it's unfair to everyone. The tier system is actually quite simple.

The rest of his system applies to mine as well. Damage, while specific to each tier, remains static.

 

[tonythetiger]

i like the tier system alot. Makes it so higher transformations are not overpowered, etc
I dont think the spacebar thing should be automatic, its very simple and adds skill in, IMO.

And definitely keep damage LOW (melee/beams) . Its so easy to rack up kills in 1.2. Battles ended way too fast.

I say keep all beam damage slightly lower then melee and then it will be balanced. If you have beams doing the same or higher damage than melee, then there will be no point in using melee at all. Just dont make them useless.

 

[john_volkov]

Powerlevel / Transformations
Powerlevel is broken in 1.2. The game rewards those that are good by making it easier for them. We need a complete overhaul of powerlevel. This is what I've come up with, but if you have a better idea, please, by all means share

Tiered powerlevel system
Let's say for example that there are 4 tiers. When a player deals out x amount of damage, he can move onto the next tier. In tier 1, players are only allowed to be in normal form. In tier 2, players are allowed to go SSJ. In tier 3, players are allowed to go SSJ2. In tier 3, players are allowed to go SSJ3. Tier 4 SSJ4.
- Damage is always the same in these tiers. A kamehameha will always do x amount of damage in tier 1 for example.
- To help those that are new to the game, if a player has x deaths more than his kill count, he can move onto tier 2, if he has 2x amount more than his kill count in tier two, he can move to tier 3, etc.

This system does three things better than the current system. It allows those that are in the same tier to be on equal footing, it's a lot more straightforward than the current system, and it will allow those that are generally of no harm to the server to transform, which will hopefully help them stick with the game. Again, I'm open to alternate systems if you can think of a better one.

Transformations
In 1.2, when someone transforms, they gain 2x the PL, speed, and Ki. Powerlevel won't be that big of a deal anymore if the tiered system is put in place, but we still have the issues of one doubling their speed and ki upon transforming.
- A players speed should still increase upon transforming, I don't particularly think that this is a problem, but..
- A player gaining double the ki upon transforming is ridiculous. When someone transforms, swooping, teleporting and beaming should all use more ki, not less as it currently does
- The higher you are transformed, the more ki moving around / doing moves should use. For example, if a player is SSJ3, everything will require more ki to perform. This balances the game as well as models DBZ's SSJ's ki drain effect.
- When in SSJ3, a players kibar should slowly drain.


The Camera
Alright, I'm going to come out and say it - The default camera view sucks. It's too close, no one who is good at the game actually keeps the camera at its default view. I'm going to propose two things
- Make the default camera view further out, roughly equivalent to holding down K until the camera stops in 1.2.
- A lot of pros won't like this, but **** them - Don't let players change their camera view. Remove Cam_Idealdist and all of those commands. I don't want some people having an advantage just because they've figured out the optimal camera view. Everyone should be on equal grounds for this one

Spec Mode
Spec mode is one of the most used features in 1.2. Whenever anyone has a 1 v 1, everyone goes into Spec Mode. The problem with this mode is that you don't see the actual point of view of the player you're specing. When specing, you should see exactly what the player you're specing sees, plus the little spec bar on the bottom of course. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but due to the amount of time people spend in spectator mode, it really is.

Stamina
No. Seriously, take this out of 1.3.

I am going to answer only to the ones in my quote
1) The new reword system it's much beter then havin the pl double, it's much fun to grow only with 1 mil or less, this can be change till we get perfect values.It gives more advantege fro new player not to see a 50 mil pl character.The only thing with the pl that sould be change it;s the dmg ammount. Ex if a character has let's say 2 mil pl and an other one has 1.5 mil pl the guy with 2 mil has verry verry much higher dmg then the one with 1.5 mil pl ex:in 1.2 the guy with the 2 mil pl will do with a simple melee hit a 20 to 25 dmg they guy with 1.5 mil will do like 9 dmg to the guy with 2 mil pl.Not fair at all I say those valuses sould be chage for exeple if the difrents betwin the pl it's like 500k the dmg sould be the same.

2)The camera. I realy hated when people use it it give you a realy high good perspertive to see your enemy .I might be the only one that uses the normal view.Instad to have it like you say the cam sould be only from 80 to 40 valuse.80 it's the defult valu , 40 it's when you hold k to max.

3)The spec mode sould have more options in it. For exeple a small play back to a hit.

4)The hole stamina concept was made to be use for melee to prevent melee spam.

 

[tonythetiger]

4)The hole stamina concept was made to be use for melee to prevent melee spam.

?
I thought stamina was to prevent beam spam.
I say just lower beam damage.

 

[Grega]

?
I thought stamina was to prevent beam spam.
I say just lower beam damage.

The stamina is planned to take quite a lot into account.

More stamina will mean less beam damage. It prevernts people from doing 20 teleports within a few seconds (the actual teleport delay was totaly removed BTW). Stamina was an idea for advanced melee and will allso be used for things like jumping (stamina drain instead of KI drain)

And ofcourse shooting big beams will allso use some stamina.


I disagree with the camera thing though. Every person right now can set it up to what they think is best. Not everyone likes a certain distance, while someone else might love it.

Simple melee damage should be chnged with the skidding instead of rolling thing. It only deals that insane damage cause it deals damage double time. First the actuall melee hirts, and then the impact on the ground allso takes damage. So you get hit 2 in one time. Thats why i allso call everyone that does the hit into the ground thing an exploiter. And yes people do not like me for it ^^

Kills. Well this is going to be taken out. While you will still kill someone the whole scoring system will actually be PL regulated. Itll be based on the PL gained. Meaning all PL that you gain while you play will be your score. Transformations, turbo and player start PL will not be calculated into that. So stealing kills is going to be eliminated.

I do disagree with the turbo = swoop mode. I want to swoop without having to turn on turbo and id some times like to fly round with turbo on. Turbo + swoop takes out another factor of KI controll. You can either turn on turbo for a bigger PL and ki drain while you fight or try to preserve KI with staying at a lower PL. My opinion on swoop is this.

Doubletap the first time and then singletap to change directions, a button you press to go into turbo mode. Press the button and a direction to start swoop (this can be set to RBM for simple melee)

Teleports. In 1.2 teleports moved you in the drection you were heading. In 1.3 they move you into the direction you want to move your character. You can teleport up while falling down by simply holding jump and hitting the teleport button. But i agree to the idea that if you are standing on the ground you should teleport up.

 

[sub]

The stamina is planned to take quite a lot into account.

More stamina will mean less beam damage. It prevernts people from doing 20 teleports within a few seconds (the actual teleport delay was totaly removed BTW). Stamina was an idea for advanced melee and will allso be used for things like jumping (stamina drain instead of KI drain)

And ofcourse shooting big beams will allso use some stamina.

It's going to be hated by the community. Did anyone really ask for this?

?
I thought stamina was to prevent beam spam.
I say just lower beam damage.

No, it'll be used to help prevent melee "spam", which in reality is just playing the game. It's like the developers of CS only giving you 20 bullets every round, but 50 grenades so that people use grenades more. A tad extreme on the analogy, but you get the idea.

I believe it's in place to force people to A) Use beams more, and B) Stop using simple melee and force you to use advanced melee. Yeah, this will go over really well with the community.

I disagree with the camera thing though. Every person right now can set it up to what they think is best. Not everyone likes a certain distance, while someone else might love it.

The point I was trying to make is that it's unfair that everyone goes around changing their camera. You can't change your point of view in CS or any of the Jedi Knight games for example, the fact that you can do it here only makes it so that everyone is not on an equal playing field.

The people who currently play 9459854395743 miles away from their camera will simply have to adapt for the sake of game balance.

Simple melee damage should be chnged with the skidding instead of rolling thing. It only deals that insane damage cause it deals damage double time. First the actuall melee hirts, and then the impact on the ground allso takes damage. So you get hit 2 in one time. Thats why i allso call everyone that does the hit into the ground thing an exploiter. And yes people do not like me for it ^^

What exactly is skidding? How will that play out?

Kills. Well this is going to be taken out. While you will still kill someone the whole scoring system will actually be PL regulated. Itll be based on the PL gained. Meaning all PL that you gain while you play will be your score. Transformations, turbo and player start PL will not be calculated into that. So stealing kills is going to be eliminated.

Wait, so there will be no more kills? I'm a little confused, can you clarify this?

I do disagree with the turbo = swoop mode. I want to swoop without having to turn on turbo and id some times like to fly round with turbo on. Turbo + swoop takes out another factor of KI controll. You can either turn on turbo for a bigger PL and ki drain while you fight or try to preserve KI with staying at a lower PL. My opinion on swoop is this.

Doubletap the first time and then singletap to change directions, a button you press to go into turbo mode. Press the button and a direction to start swoop (this can be set to RBM for simple melee)

I suggested this for the sake of simplicity. Having turbo become swoopmode streamlines the game and makes it easier to play and learn. My other idea was essentially the same as this one, except instead of pressing turbo, you'd have a swoop button, but having turbo as swoop prevents the need for adding in another button (we already have quite a few buttons).

In any case, we need to get rid of doubletap. Players who are new to the game complain that it's hard to do / it never swoops when they want it to. Plus, it's giving me and I'd imagine a fair amount of other people arthritis. The swooping system needs to be fairly simple, and I think what I suggested is the best way out there to do swooping.

Oh, and because I forgot to mention it in my post, only one swoop mode.

Teleports. In 1.2 teleports moved you in the drection you were heading. In 1.3 they move you into the direction you want to move your character. You can teleport up while falling down by simply holding jump and hitting the teleport button. But i agree to the idea that if you are standing on the ground you should teleport up.

I have no problem with teleports moving you in the direction you want to move your character, but you shouldn't waste ki traveling no where while teleporting in place. Make teleporting in place do the same thing as 1.2's teleports did.

 

[Zeonix]

Skidding = Hitting someone towards the ground, causing them to roll and slide rather than land flat on the ground.

 

[sub]

How is this different than what we have now? Can you no longer double hit when one skids?

 

[Zeonix]

If they're skidding on the ground, you're going to have a hell of a time hitting them a second time while we're on the ground unless you're sliding at 3 mph. And we don't have the skidding thing Grega is talking about. We have a 3 foot long slide, followed by a 2 hour long flip.

 

[Grega]

Well my point about the camera is this.

I play with cam_idealdist 100 (thats how much you can zoom out in 1.2)

Now i play best like that. If i zoom in or zoom out ill play worse. Some people like it more with 200 or with less then 100.

Heck i saw a guy who said he cant play unless its first person. By putting everyone on equal ground you force people to be equal even if they are not.

But if you bring up this issue then why not just limit mouse speed to one number as well. Its the same concept. People can change it to better suit their needs. They can customize it for better play. So why not just put everyone equal and slap the speed shut on 15 and say. "We wanted equal terms of play for everyone"

 

[sub]

Well my point about the camera is this.

I play with cam_idealdist 100 (thats how much you can zoom out in 1.2)

Now i play best like that. If i zoom in or zoom out ill play worse. Some people like it more with 200 or with less then 100.

Heck i saw a guy who said he cant play unless its first person. By putting everyone on equal ground you force people to be equal even if they are not.

But if you bring up this issue then why not just limit mouse speed to one number as well. Its the same concept. People can change it to better suit their needs. They can customize it for better play. So why not just put everyone equal and slap the speed shut on 15 and say. "We wanted equal terms of play for everyone"

Your analogy of this being like mouse speed is flawed, because everyone has a different mouse as well as a different windows sensitivity. A sensitivity of 5 for me would be much different than a sensitivity of 5 for you. A camera view, however, would be equal for all.

As for the camera view, you can do some pretty unfair things with it. I seem to have deleted the commands off of my computer, but I just asked Jinx for them. If he gives them to me, I'm going to make a video to show you just how ridiculously unfair you can edit the camera to give you an advantage. It's not just a simple matter of zooming the camera back, you can change like every aspect of the camera view to give you an advantage.

 

[Grega]

The zoom out should stay i say.

I mean not everyone plays at the same resolution. People playing at higher resolutions allso have an andavtage with the same camera distance than people playing lower resolutions.

 

[Zeonix]

He isn't complaining about being able to zoom out. I don't care if you want to play the game from 4 miles away. It's when you start screwing with the angles to give you a far better view of the battlefield while making it significantly easier to hit people, without even really trying, that it gets to be too much. Keep zooming in and out, disable everything else.

 

[sub]

Right. I don't really care if the zoom in and out keys stay

I do care about the default camera view, though. It should be further back than it is now, considering the second one gets good at esf, they change the view so that its further back.

 

[Grega]

Well that i agree on.

 

[john_volkov]

like I'v said the cam sould work only betwin 40 and 80 , 80 beeing the normal view and 40 the view with k press at max.

 

[Grega]

Thats exacly what i dont like john.

The zooming should stay as it is. The rest of he camera controlls can be removed if it really gives such an advantage.

Since as said. Not everyone sees the same field with 40. It depends on the resolution.