High Ki Usage when SSJ

[Sicron]

Yes. And I hope ESF will. Still I find it difficult to balance the game with so much different character abilities, etc. The team would/will need a lot of players at once to test the balance and stuff.

Feel free to PM me. And I'm no way a troll.

The team has over 8 year experience on their side, a great community, a dedicated beta testing team and they have been working on 1.3 for quite a few years now. I, for one, have every confidence they'll get it right. They don't rush their releases like many mods these days do.

 

[Damaera]

Not banned for what? For my doubts? You fail.

Since you seem to be confused as to why some people are wondering about that, I'll spell it out for you.

We have rules on these boards, and we, the Development Team and Forum Staff try our hardest to enforce them while being as fair and lenient as possible. At times, we have people like you who come on to these boards and seem to believe that they're above the rules and for whatever reason, think that they don't need to be respectful towards the community, the development team, the people who are making the game that you are oh so dying to play, and the forum staff, the people who uphold the rules and keep the community in place. We tend to be victims of people who think that they can be disrespectful and push our buttons without being punished. So let me make it very clear to you that we have a zero tolerance policy about disrespect, and people tend to think that they can get away with being disrespectful because we're so lenient compared to when the forum was extremely active. Continuously telling people that they fail, antagonizing other forum members, telling people to shut the **** up, bashing other forum members, and flaming an ESF addon is not tolerated and it will stop.

Banning fans isn't something we enjoy doing, so take this as a formal friendly warning to make a change in your attitude. If you continue to think that you're above the rules and don't need to respect people, then we'll simply punish you and if it still continues, eventually remove you from the community.

 

[sub]

Okay... I'm not a mod, but I've been here long enough to know that this entire thing is ridiculous.

First, Dam, that was a pretty random post/rant. I don't understand what Hlev did wrong to warrant you threatening to ban him if his behavior doesn't change. This isn't the NNK forum, people are allowed to voice their opinions on the mod, whatever they may be. Couldn't you have PMed him that? Just by you posting that rant, the odds of the thread getting back on topic are pretty low.

Hlev, if you have a concern about the mod, by all means, voice it. You're almost certainly right btw, 1.3 is probably going to be unbalanced in one way or another. It's the nature of making games, it happens.

Greg: Totally unnecessary to call Hlev out, he did nothing wrong in this thread.

Sicron: Do you really believe that? The ESF team is good, but it'd be almost impossible for 1.3 to be released without any exploits, imbalances, bugs, etc.


As for the actual topic, I agree 110% with Growler, SSJ+ ki drains would be good to balance out the forms.

 

[hleV]

Since you seem to be confused as to why some people are wondering about that, I'll spell it out for you.

Etc.

I only wonder why is it always Dmaera to tell stuff when it comes to talk about me. You obviously hate or at least greatly dislike me for a stupid reason.

The only rule I have ever broken was the "Respect" one (though I don't really remember if I did). I didn't receive ban, the thing is over with that. Now I'm not breaking any rules, am I? I know that a person can get ban for other things, but I really, honestly, don't see what would I get banned for. Well, maybe for the fact that Dmaera dislikes me or some people like Greg42k (or whatever his nickname is) says I should be banned.

The only chance for me to break rules is when I get really pissed off. Like when I say something and people understand it in other way. And when I try to explain what I meant - they refuse to listen.

OK OK, I'm done.

BTW this was meant for the public eye, not Dmaera.

 

[It's over One Million!]

I only wonder why is it always Dmaera to tell stuff when it comes to talk about me. You obviously hate or at least greatly dislike me for a stupid reason.

The only rule I have ever broken was the "Respect" one (though I don't really remember if I did). I didn't receive ban, the thing is over with that. Now I'm not breaking any rules, am I? I know that a person can get ban for other things, but I really, honestly, don't see what would I get banned for. Well, maybe for the fact that Dmaera dislikes me or some people like Greg42k (or whatever his nickname is) says I should be banned.

The only chance for me to break rules is when I get really pissed off.

I see that hleV want to get BANNED You must respect ESF team.

 

[hleV]

YES! I just can't wait till I'm banned!

Spoiler: For It's over 9000!

I wonder if people can get even more stupid (sorry for the offence, but you really talk nonsense). You have quoted my post, which has nothing to do with not respecting the ESF team or trying to get myself banned. Isn't it enough proof that you're an idiot? Maybe not, I don't care, but think about it.

I disagree with your argument that I must respect ESF team. I decide who I respect, not you. It's simple. I don't respect people who don't respect me. That goes for Dmaera. I do respect everyone else on the team though.
I hope it's now clear for everyone.

Could this topic be locked? I don't want more people with their opinions about me without any good arguments. For those people, please go to PM instead of proving yourself stupid please.

On-topic
SSJ should be a good thing for players. That's why there are transformations (or because they were in DBZ?). You should feel the difference of being SSJ and not. In the released versions of ESF, one good PS and you're out of the SSJ form.

I think SSJ should be the same as normal (I mean Ki/Stamina draining, etc.), only the higher forms should have the disadvantage.

 

[It's over One Million!]

YES! I just can't wait till I'm banned!
I wonder if people can get even more stupid (sorry for the offence, but you really talk nonsense). Isn't it enough proof that you're an idiot? Maybe not, I don't care, but think about it.
I disagree with your argument that I must respect ESF team. I decide who I respect, not you. It's simple. I don't respect people who don't respect me. That goes for Dmaera.

I think that Damaera will be angry.

 

[Snowm@n]

Follow grega's advise, and solve this by pm, the discussion is 99% offtopic.

 

[Skiwan]

Seriously, this thread has taken a weird turn, hlev didnt deserve a rant from dam, but hlev shouldn't be trying to further provoke a reaction. Suggest you all just calm down and get back on topic.

Here's my problem with it, If you make higher trans's have more drastic ki use, then the perma trans characters suffer. It's already awkward to know when to trans with a permanent trans character. Making it harder to play as a reward for obtaining a higher powerlevel is kinda a backward step, for new players most of all.

What dictates a winner in a fight in esf is more about speed and ki control rather than powerlevel. However, speed has a massive influence on how difficult a character is to control, for new players, ascending to a new level means where they used to get 1 in 10 hits on an opponent, they are now only able to get 1 in 20. This backwards step in transformations needs to be addressed to make the game more balanced/and new player friendly.

Disguise brought up a suggestion a while back which I liked in particular, and kinda built upon it myself; that instead of having vast increases in swoop speed, have a slight increase in swoop speed per form, but, have a bigger turbo speed boost per form. Atm, turbo increases speed by 1.2x, if you were to have it so that every form had a turbo speed increase for eg: ssj = 1.4x, ssj2 = 1.6x and ssj3 = 1.8x, you'd have an optional speed increase at the press of the button, letting those players who have a hard time hitting at high speeds play without turbo with a less demanding ki consumption, and those players who can play at higher speeds use turbo, but at the cost of using more ki. Ki efficiency is what controls how much every thing costs in ki on a character, this could be altered to suit forms. Rather than ki efficiency being used as a balance measure, with the changes to swoop speeds/turbo, it could be made a characteristic, ssj3 for example is less ki efficient though somebody like frieza may have an increase in his ki efficiency per trans.

You could take the turbo and speed relationship to the next level, and instead of an arbitary pl boost, it could be a characteristic pl boost too, like with USSJ trunks, instead of him getting 1.6x speed on turbo, he gets 1.2x speed (cuz he's slower) but is given an extra 2 million powerlevel in turbo.

Plus the ki efficiency change to forms doesnt account for buddy's, since they will continually play the same, the only difference being is each character in a buddy class will have different attacks and stats, to throw one of them a low ki efficiency markup because he's the last buddy in the group is a bit more complicated balance wise than having each class/form having their own set of characteristics that work well together.

 

[Grega]

Seriously, this thread has taken a weird turn, hlev didnt deserve a rant from dam, but hlev shouldn't be trying to further provoke a reaction. Suggest you all just calm down and get back on topic.

Here's my problem with it, If you make higher trans's have more drastic ki use, then the perma trans characters suffer. It's already awkward to know when to trans with a permanent trans character. Making it harder to play as a reward for obtaining a higher powerlevel is kinda a backward step, for new players most of all.

What dictates a winner in a fight in esf is more about speed and ki control rather than powerlevel. However, speed has a massive influence on how difficult a character is to control, for new players, ascending to a new level means where they used to get 1 in 10 hits on an opponent, they are now only able to get 1 in 20. This backwards step in transformations needs to be addressed to make the game more balanced/and new player friendly.

Disguise brought up a suggestion a while back which I liked in particular, and kinda built upon it myself; that instead of having vast increases in swoop speed, have a slight increase in swoop speed per form, but, have a bigger turbo speed boost per form. Atm, turbo increases speed by 1.2x, if you were to have it so that every form had a turbo speed increase for eg: ssj = 1.4x, ssj2 = 1.6x and ssj3 = 1.8x, you'd have an optional speed increase at the press of the button, letting those players who have a hard time hitting at high speeds play without turbo with a less demanding ki consumption, and those players who can play at higher speeds use turbo, but at the cost of using more ki. Ki efficiency is what controls how much every thing costs in ki on a character, this could be altered to suit forms. Rather than ki efficiency being used as a balance measure, with the changes to swoop speeds/turbo, it could be made a characteristic, ssj3 for example is less ki efficient though somebody like frieza may have an increase in his ki efficiency per trans.

You could take the turbo and speed relationship to the next level, and instead of an arbitary pl boost, it could be a characteristic pl boost too, like with USSJ trunks, instead of him getting 1.6x speed on turbo, he gets 1.2x speed (cuz he's slower) but is given an extra 2 million powerlevel in turbo.

Plus the ki efficiency change to forms doesnt account for buddy's, since they will continually play the same, the only difference being is each character in a buddy class will have different attacks and stats, to throw one of them a low ki efficiency markup because he's the last buddy in the group is a bit more complicated balance wise than having each class/form having their own set of characteristics that work well together.

Ai but on order for that to work properly we need to make some changes to turbo. Though to be honest the changes i had in mind a while back (just waiting till the feature stop ends) would really go hand in hand with this idea.

 

[Disguise]

Here's my problem with it, If you make higher trans's have more drastic ki use, then the perma trans characters suffer. It's already awkward to know when to trans with a permanent trans character. Making it harder to play as a reward for obtaining a higher powerlevel is kinda a backward step, for new players most of all.

You mentioned that transformations can have characteristics that blend well with the characters. I think one such thing to keep in mind is that some are Temptrans, and others are Permatrans. There should be a line drawn somewhere that distinguishes one from the other and evens them out.

I think based on a forum discussion we had and on another time we talked in chat, we all agree that Kid Buu is strong because he can always fight unrestrained at his maximum level. So in order to balance the Ki efficiency factor with Permatrans, why not make the Ki Drain rate lower for Charged Turbo so he can sustain it indefinitely? In exchange, you don't increase his base Power Level and Swoop Speed as much through transformations, but focus on other stats, like Health. You could probably do the same thing for Cell until you've figure out other ways to diversify Permatrans characters and test to see how well they work. High speed players, be them pros or head-on noobs, who like to swoop really fast would love this.

In exchange, Stamina vulnerability would remain higher allowing them, after consecutive attacks, to fall into an increasingly invulnerable state. So on one end they can sustain a high power level and dominate, and on the other end, if they get hit enough, they'll fall into a rutt that's relatively more difficult to rebound from than other characters. If they lose too much stamina, they can't use Turbo anymore, right?

That's kind of how it works in the anime too, where Permatrans (evil) goes through phases of winning and losing in their current states. DBZ typically explains this by calling it Cell 100% or Frieza 100%, but I'd compare this to a lasting Charged Turbo.

@Skiwan: I'm glad you liked the idea. I really thought that one had a lot of potential to it to add more control and diversity in the swoop speeds.

What dictates a winner in a fight in esf is more about speed and ki control rather than powerlevel. However, speed has a massive influence on how difficult a character is to control, for new players, ascending to a new level means where they used to get 1 in 10 hits on an opponent, they are now only able to get 1 in 20. This backwards step in transformations needs to be addressed to make the game more balanced/and new player friendly.

I'm not sure if it was ever read, but I did come up with a solution to the increasing swoop speeds problem. I predicted that the change in swoop speeds would cause players to hit each other less, thus causing most players to fight Untrans like in 1.2. With these potential swoop speed changes to Turbo, it would simply shift the trend to players fighting without Turbo and using it at times to catch players off guard. This may not be a bad thing, but for that suggestion with Kid Buu and Charged Turbo, this problem needs to be fixed to make it work.

The solution is to increase the mouse sensitivity in the same ratio as the swoop speed increases. If you can do this automatically for the players, it SHOULD fix the problem.

EX: SSJ2 uses Turbo. Swoop speed increases from 200 to 300.
Current Sensitivity = 20

If the sensitivity, only while swooping, is temporarily changed to 30, then you won't notice any changes in difficulty in hitting the other player. Only the timing on turning will be altered, and not the severity in which you move the mouse which causes a majority of the problem.

 

[Skiwan]

Messing with sensitivity is unnecessary, I don't believe its that much of a problem, and infact with the introduction of physics to esf, swooping feels slightly different, especially at higher speeds. The fact is, not everyone is comfortable playing at different sensitivities either, some people use really low sensitivity cuz thats how they like it, even some of the longest playing pro's play at 3-5, while others play at 15-20. The fact is turbo would be used by those who are able to cope with it, there have been a few things that have changed about turbo that making it much easier to use, less hassle. I'd much rather turbo be used less though, its meant to be the equivalent of going all out against an opponent - you're "full power" as it were, its not something to be used whenever and however you want.

 

[Disguise]

Just to make sure we're thinking about it the same way, I'll re-iterate why I think sensitivity is a problem.

When a player swoops at an opponent, there are two factors that are considered. First, when the player begins to arc into the other player. Second, how quickly that arc bends.

When swoop speeds are increased, both are changed. The player not only needs to turn sooner because the other player is reached more quickly, but the arc itself gets extended and thus lessened.

Imagine a simple, constant 45 arc, like half of the letter C. Now take that arc and extend it in the direction of the swoop. The approach is more narrow and not as immediate. This, in addition to the reduction in relative distance, again changes the timing of the hit. Before the arc was very sharp and could be achieved with a flick of the wrist which would instantly arrive at its target. That same flick of the wrist now provides a differently shaped, extended arc which needs to be initiated earlier.

By increasing the sensitivity, that arc is returned to its original shape. This is because the arc is a formula based on speed over sensitivity, assuming the player's input as a constant. So with the arc returned to its original shape, the only thing that changes now is the timing on when to turn.

To address the differences in player sensitivities, I was thinking more so like a multiplier be calculated in the system.

BaseSwoop/TurboSwoop = ChangeRatio
200/300 = .666

{1 + ChangeRatio} x CurrentSensitivity = AdjustedSensitivity
1.66 x 20 = 33.2

This would calculate adjusted sensitivity based on current.


Even though the physics system is changed, I'd think that this problem still exists to a formulaic degree. Maybe it's less discernable visually, or somehow the swoop mechanic alleviates some of the problem. I think if this was incorporated, you'd notice a big difference though.

 

[Skiwan]

Before, the direction you're moving was always towards where you were aiming, the flick of the wrist action (angle hitting) was just a swipe of the aim making the angle of attack connect with the opponents hit box, this kind of angle hit is no longer is so easy. Now there's physics are involved, the momentum simulates a sort of turn you make in a car at high speeds, no matter how much or how fast you may spin the wheel to the right, you're still going to have the momentum of where you were heading originally, high sensitivity leads more towards over-steer, low sensitivity leads more towards under-steer.

Altering the sensitivity does nothing but move the goal posts, thus imo, making it less comfortable to learn how much to turn, when and how. If you were to play you'd feel the difference, its ever so slight, but it does make a lot of difference to how swooping "feels". I really disagree with altering sensitivity, even if it was calculated to use your current sensitivity as a base, I just like to know that I can make the suitable adjustments rather than the game forcing it upon me.

 

[Disguise]

Thanks for the good visuals there, I totally get what you're saying here. Essentially there's a skid wheneever you take the turn. An object in motion stays in motion, so you slowly adjust your momentum in the new direction you're facing. I'm curious what happens when you do a 180 turn?

It sounds like changing sensitivity would have less of an influence on the always-present skidding. I don't think anything could necessarily be changed to fix that end of it. But I now think that the increase in speed with the same sensitivity ADDS to the skid effect, meaning the more your speed increases, the more the skid stacks naturally AND the more the arc itself also changes. So what you end up with is even worse than what I originally thought.

Pretending skid doesn't exist for a moment, Under-steering increases as the speed increases. Try taking a turn at 10 mph compared to 100 mph, and you'll notice that turning the wheel at the same time just won't cut it. This is because the arc is extended, as I mentioned before. So you need to begin turning sooner. If you turn at the same time as 10 mph, you'll need to over-steer to hit your mark (assuming you can't flip over), which is why I think increasing the sensitivity will do the trick; It preserves the relative timing of the turn.

Now lets talk about the skid involved. If you're going really fast and you turn, you'll continue that way. The faster you're going, the more that's increased. So not only does the arc change as a function of speed, but the skid is a natural constant in the game which also increases in itself.

I'm still inclined to say that if you fix the shape of the arc by creating more over-steer to compensate for the speed, it will fix the arc, but the skid will remain, which is where the learning curve has to come into play.

Either that or players will have to begin turning into their swoops like 3 seconds before they're going to hit the other player, and if everyone's swoop is constantly changing speeds and locations unpredictably, it will be a huge mess. I just don't see the traditional "swoop swarm" working unless some factors of swoop are controlled, such as the turning arc.

Maybe we should start talking about Flying Melee now.


As a side thought though, is it possible to add a function to swoop where if you hold the key down, you'll continue drifting, and when you let go of it, you'll immediately propel in the direction you're facing? This would completely eliminate the problem of turning and make it a matter of timing.

Maybe add this as a function to chain-swooping. Like if I'm flying forward and I hold shift+left, I'll immediately turn left and face in that direction and fly that way. If I just hit left, I'll fly left facing forward. Just a thought anyway.

EDIT
You can experiment yourself and let me know how it turns out. Just open the console and adjust the sensitivity in proportion to the speed, and see if it helps you connect your swoops. It'll suck because it'll change it for everything else too, so aiming will be harder, but try it out for awhile.

 

[Sicron]

Changing the mouse sensitivity when flying at faster speeds won't make it any easier, it would just make it easier to overshoot the target. Hell, I wouldn't want my powersteering in my car to suddenly go very weak on my when I am driving at 155+ miles an hour, I would overshoot the lane and crash.

 

[Disguise]

It's a change increasing the sensitivity, not lowering it. So it'd be making your power steering very sensitive. And we're also assuming you can't flip over. This is if you want to turn the wheel of your car when you're right next to the turn as opposed to way earlier and leading into it. You'd need an increase in your power steering if you planned on turning the wheel at the same speed you originally would. You dig?

There's probably better ways to fix this problem, though maybe understanding this concept will help. If I was familiar with the physics engine of the game I'd just make it so the faster you travel, the faster your speed changes in the direction you're facing to eliminate the increase in drag.

 

[hleV]

In DBZ there's no such thing as oversteering. Why add it to ESF? I doubt if it adds fun to the gameplay (I may be wrong of course).

 

[Disguise]

The physics engine skid and the natural extension of the arc due to increased speeds makes it nearly impossible to land hits in 1.3. The concept of oversteering is to negate the change in the turning arc as speeds increase to keep the turn timing more consistent, like how it is in 1.2.3.

So as swooping speed increases, turning speed increases equally.

In 1.2, swoop speeds were always the same (by choice), so it was possible for players to both predict their's and the opponent's swooping paths. With speeds changing this drastically, 1.3 will turn into a head-on or avoid & counter fest, thus why I suggested speeds without Turbo remain constant, to retain that aspect of the gameplay. Everyone who enjoys swoop swarming will fight without Turbo now, and I don't see any other way around that unless there's some sort of compensation, like adjustments to the physics engine or mouse sensitivity to increase the effectiveness of the turning response... in relation to speed. That's the important thing to remember.

I'm fine with 'swoop swarm' out of the picture though. Now it'll just be me and my Flying Melee tearin it up!

 

[Skiwan]

Nearly impossible? you haven't even played it and you're trying to tell us how it is ?

Like I said, its only very slight, and it gives a more pleasing feel to swoop, much more smoother and realistic, it hasn't had a huge knock on effect to gameplay, like I said, the only noticable difference it makes, is that angle hits harder to do, since you cant just swipe your mouse across to hit your enemy when you in theory have missed them. It makes those kind of hits require a bit of prediction, skill and timing, they aren't impossible. Which is a good thing, since angle hitting was far too easy in 1.2, Its one of the many things that made it so easy to bully noobs.

Seriously, there's no way in hell I'd like my sensitivity governed by my speed. I like it how it is in the inteam now, when it first changed to have some physics included, it was a little odd but, I now fully appreciate it. All I think is needed, is the transformation speed increase more vast in turbo, rather than standard swoop. All this sensitivity nonsense is really unnecessary.