Halorin's updated melee concept.

[Halorin]

Well, Sonic, my melee concept comes most directly from what the team said. I never had any idea of using some sort of directional combo system with the movement keys until I saw it on the main page. I never thought of the admittedly complex melee powerstruggle system until I had talked with some of the team members. I was simply going off of what they told me. What I had wanted to do was take what they wanted, and take what I wanted, and try to mesh them together. I don't think it would be all that hard to code, since it would mostly be taking a lot of what they already coded with the combo system, and taking what was already coded with knockbacks, and just slapping them together with some modifications. I guess what I'm trying to say is that most of the code should alrady be more or less worked out for what I was trying to do. You all saw the video, right? They had directions already in the game, so.. it wouldn't be too hard to have the directions done during the autopunches. Team members told me that that's what they planned on doing, and they were planning on using some of my ideas, so I don't think it could be that impossible. The hardest thing I would see to code would really be the teleport in a combo, because of map terrain issues that could arise. That was just an idea that I figured couldn't hurt; that it would add some variety.

And to Bones, apparently you didn't read the disclaimer. Please do before you say I'm complaining.

To Hibiki, I think that this melee concept would work best with beams, in actuality. If you look at the time frame that would be adjusted, it would take a max of 3 seconds to come up with your combo and release it, but it could be sooner than that. The combo plays out, and then if the defender blocked everything, they can try to attack back. At the most it'd be around 6 seconds or so. Actually, the other day I was talking to Mastasurf or PcJoe, I can't remember which one, and I had said it would be a great idea for my melee concept to have a two delays for the combos. Say if player A hit up down left right REALLY fast, player B would see each command come up say, .1 seconds later, but only at .12 seconds at a time, so no matter how fast the attacker inputted them in, the defender would see them in a smooth, concise flow. I know those numbers may not fit best, but it's off the top of my head, heh. Give me a break. I think that would be the closest way to get to realtime in combo'ing as anyone can get. The video portrayed melee to be much slower than realtime, though I know it was a work in progress. Also, team member told me that they had actually planned on beams doing no damage at all during a combo, making it easy to just, 'latch' onto a player to combo so you don't take beam damage. In my melee concept, you'd take reduced damage in combos, and the combos would end within 5 seconds with the 2 delays involved. I don't really think trying to make beams 50/50 is the way to go anyway, if you want a skill-based game. They're about at a 70/30 ratio in my opinion in 1.1, and that seems to work. Is there something else that doesn't sound beam friendly in my concept? Actually, a while ago I had remember making a post in the suggestions thread about beams instead of exploding doing wave damage where the player was pushed back like you would see in the cartoon, but I guess that got swept away. 1.3? lol

To SaiyanPride, this melee concept isn't really about preserving the old way of fighting as it is about providing the player with as many options of attack as possible. Yes, knockbacks will still be in, but as I said, the distance would be shortened, and the person attacked would actually be in a good position to return an attack. The attacker would not be able to swoop for a moment, just as things are now, but I wanted it to be that the person attacked would be right back into the fray upon taking the hit to a point it looked almost elastic how they bounced back. The main point of knockbacks, in my mind for my concept, is to stave off any attacks in a more than two person setting and as some sort of diversion to keep your opponent on their toes. Also, resourceful people can be rewarded in their efforts by knocking someone into a wall for extra damage. That could open up a whole realm of KB combos by cutting the distance down so much that they could get in for those hits that they couldn't before. And I believe that Half-Life can handle all of my concept, as it's mostly just a modification of the team's concept, and since they apparently are using it, it's possible, eh? Combos would still be the premeir method of attack because it does the most damage potentially and it will stun for longer and it just be plain funner, but I think that knockbacks still have plenty purpose in the game and shouldn't be taken out, only balanced in.

Also, my melee concept is in some ways less complex. It'd basically get rid of the need for simple melee for one, since it'd be possible to continue the old way of fighting, even if it isn't as lucrative or advantageous. The team wanted to have diagonals involved, and I don't see how that's not complicating. I had talked to Mastasurf about an idea using diagonals. Maybe he'll take my idea for it.


I'm not saying what I proposed is perfect for everyone, but I do think that everyone gets what they want in some shape or form.

 

[grOOvy]

Well I've read through this before it came on this thread, and I personally like this outline a lot. It's all upto Masta and Joe whether they decide to use it though. But I'm sure Joe would love coding this anyway.

 

[Doctor Shaft]

Well, I personally really love the ideas. On paper, it seems like it's a lot of controls to learn, but then again, is it really too complicated?

From what I've read, Halorin included what is already confirmed to exist in 1.2 melee, the Custom Combo system, and built other ideas around it.

For instance, it is true that the melee struggle stuff would seem confusing, as would the swoop system. Then again, in my mind it's not really that complicated. Mouse 1 = quick swoop Mouse 2 = super swoop (with potential penalties).

You do whatever swoop you like, then either press and hold mouse 1 or 2 again. So now it's either CC time, or old school 1.1 time, although 1.1 feature would be toned down... otherwise there'd be no point to having CC's.

Either way, that's the core of Halorin's idea... you either swoop safely or you swoop faster with added risk. Door 1 or door 2. Then, you have two choices again. Either enter into a safe, potentially damaging CC, or just knock the guy away for some distance and some beaming action. Room 1 or room 2.

That's the core of it. The other stuff may be complicated, but at the same time, since it's not the core, not everyone would have to master it (unless they were absolutely bent on owning servers). For instance, melee struggles would only occur if two people smashed into each other with the intention of Custom Combo'ing. They go into the struggle. Now, this would probably be the most complicated thing in the whole plan, because of how you don't want to win by going over the limit, but having to maintain a good margin in power. However, in order to help the new players who don't understand, it's all about teaching them the nature of the struggle in a certain order.

For instance, rather than explain all the complicated stuff about how to best your opponent in a melee struggle FIRST, you save all that techno jargon for last. What you start with is this: How to get out of a melee struggle. Of course, this will sometimes leave you with the short end of the stick, but it would also promote proper timing with the swoops. And, since it's pretty easy to get out of the 'proposed' melee struggle (just press block), we're right back to the original core of the game: Custom Combos.

All in all, Halorin's suggestions are complicated, and they probably won't ALL show up in the 1.2 system. However, I think his ideas are very solid, and I think the core of the ideas are centered around the easy part, custom combos, enough that no new players would be entirely overwhelmed by it. Instead, all of the 'hard' part of Halorin's speech would be left to the masters to understand and discover over a certain period of time. If melee were very close to the way Halorin suggests... the new players would have the easy to follow swoop and custom combo or push-away-system. They get told how to break out of melee struggles, and if they decided they don't want to, they can smash buttons and some how figure out how to win them. Otherwise, hit block, try to beat a custom combo.

The rest of us would read and understand the other parts of the melee system, and over time prevail. The longevity of the game could increase because new players would eventually take the time to figure out how all the "cool" stuff goes down. Even if no one understands the melee struggle quite so well.... in some cases a two on one, or four on four, will still just look pretty cool.

Also, breaking apart custom combo matches is pretty simplistic. Just dash at them and use the attack number 2 instead of 1 to push one of the guys out of it (according to the theory, not the actual coding nightmare).

Knowing how much damage stuff does is something left to the Hardcore players, or at least the guys who are old enough, mature enough, and just plain dorky enough to want to read about it. Either way, it's still constant DBZ action, and lots of new players like to shoot kamehame ha all the time anyway.

 

[Halorin]

Thank you for giving a thought out response, Doctor Shaft. The thing about my melee concept is, like I've said before, that most of it's already what the team wants to put in, only modified. I basically did not come up with the power struggle idea, that's why PcJoe told me that he would like to have done. That's his idea, I stated that in the actual outline clearly, I hope. The only thing I've added was the whole teleport idea, and my thoughts on what should have in multiple player situations. The rest is just going off of what the team said and what I had wanted that to be like in my opinion. So, the level of complexity was set by the team, I just tried to add some depth to it, in response to Sonic's post. If you agree with the team, then you should agree with the melee concept, because it's everything they wanted it to be. I simply modified its execution.

I think that if a general noob would sit down and put my proposed melee concept into some sort of mental picture, they'd be able to understand how things work in no time. Of course, an advanced player would have better knowledge of what to do in certain situations, like maybe it would be better to knock this person back into a wall, then catch them with a CC as they fell, teleported behind them and ax handled them in the back into the ground for a good 50 or so damage. Of course the defender would have the opportunity to block all of this, but it's certainly possible. The wide variety of attacks would keep the defender on their toes, instead of just hitting one button to do it all.

Another thing, the charged swoops would have to be charged. Say for about a second, you get a full swoop. That way if you do accidently hit the wrong button, you can let it go before you take off. Charged swooping was really intended, in my melee concept's case, to be something to perhaps start off a battle or if you want to get the jump on someone. I wouldn't do it every time I swooped, heh. But could it really hurt and overcomplicate things to have that option there? In Soul Caliber, as someone mentioned, things can get so in depth and skillful with parries and blocks and horizontal or vertical slashes, that someone new to the game could really get lost playing someone who knows how the game works. What would be so different here? If two really skillful players played my melee concept, I'd guarantee it would be something to see, and really fun.

It's fast, fun, and skillful. I think anyway.

 

[Pain]

it would be a nice touch if you could charge a power swoop, and swoop normally. that way you release the power swoop in mid-normal swoop for a suprise attack sort of thing.

 

[Halorin]

Even more strategy to be added. I like that idea a lot, Pain. The only thing is, I think there should be more stun time added than if you just did it off the bat, you know?

 

[Barney's Soul]

wow halerin how many hours did u spend typen al that O_O i read te first 3 lines of your mele concept in it looks good to me

PS: who achlly spent te time to read te wole idea

 

[Pain]

PS: who achlly spent te time to read te wole idea

i did, and you should too.

 

[sub]

Yea, I read the whole idea too. I see nothing wrong with your idea hal, I love it. Imo, it makes it so its not overlycomplicated, but would be hard to master which is exactly what this game needs.

 

[ZeonStar]

I think that is the best idea ive ever heard for the melee system. I think Most if not all of what you said should be added! :yes:

 

[Halorin]

I appreciate all the positive feed back, everyone. Most of the credit still goes to the team, because I just modified what they've shown to everyone and me. I hope they decide to use it, too.

 

[StAtiX]

Very nice hal very nice. I congradulate u and the team for the good work. And how long it must have taken u to type that lol.

 

[Pain]

you would be suprised how fast he can type.
i did see a few typos in it though

 

[Halorin]

Heh. I had actually wrote most of it down in an empty notebook I had one night. I was bored. Then I really liked it, so I typed it up and started sending it to people.

And.. I guess I type pretty quick. I don't know. I don't think about it. Going out of my way to type correctly slows my mind down enough to actually be able to type faster if I just left out caps and periods and things. That's why they made the QWERTY keyboard like it is. Think about it, heh.

 

[Pcjoe]

Nice post Halorin Just to set things strait, everying halorin mentioned is possible to code, nothing impossible/very difficult. A lot of my current code would work. I still have a slight problem understanding how the delayed blocking directions will work (so they come out at a constant stream), but i already talked to you abou it...
Anyways... I like the melee system too, only problem is deciding what to put in. I still don't think we're going to completly convert to the system, but i dunno, guess only time can tell. But yeah, we are most definatly concidering it, so *insert middle finger here* to all the people who say we don't listen to the fans ^_^

wow halerin how many hours did u spend typen al that O_O i read te first 3 lines of your mele concept in it looks good to me

PS: who achlly spent te time to read te wole idea

This is my 4-5th time reading it. Read it several times when he sent it to me over aim, and I just read it again in this post.

 

[Soleyu]

Well as many have said this is a great concept.
I love everything about, but one thing:
You shouldt be invincible while CC, you should take less damage and not break fom the combo, but have less attacks or something (of course if they trow you a SB or a SSJ fully charged Kamehameha, they should break), but only in teambatles, so you have to rely on teammates to protect you from beams. In free for all you should be invincible.

Thats all.

 

[Doctor Shaft]

Invincibilty just shouldn't be put in. ONce that happens, what are beamers supposed to do when everyone goes swooping after targets?

Granted, it's always annoying for a beamer to throw beams at people congregated in an area. However, with this new system, beamers might actually have a chance to actually fire at valid targets now.

Less damage... sure. Perhaps a defence bonus could be coded in instead.

In other words, beams usually just do less damage. Why not set it up so that people with beams have to fire a certain strength attack to "break up melee struggles".

For instance, two members enter into CC contest. They begin their attacks, which will last for a total of probably three seconds max, maybe six if each guy goes for the full monty of attacks. Then the interference comes in.

According to the "Halorin system", the third guy can do a swoop and with secondary attack break apart melees. Fair enough.

But beams are another matter. Why not have it so that a beam will basically deflect off a target unless it is at a certain powerlevel? For instance... guy comes in firing generic ki blasts. CC's can easily fight while deflecting ki blasts away. Explanation? Uh... the fight r sooo 1nt3n$3 dat... yeah. So yeah, the normal rapid fire blasts will just bounce off, or you can somehow hit something else and trap them in a ki blob. Generic beams must be at full power to be effective or they simply bounce off... if they hit, it does about a 25% of the normal damage. Special beams.... maybe 75%, or 50% to do 35% damage. 100% special beam will hit both targets and knock them out of custom combo series.

That's probably just way too complicated. However, invincibility.... blech. I know free for all games can get hectic... but that's just the nature of the game. Allowing people to enter in JO (JK2) style duels, while cool for the three seconds it lasts, is kind of annoying if people that like to use the occasional beam are stuck waiting to see if their oblivious targets are going to stand around.

 

[imported_Mystix]

how about have the beams slow down melee? instead of completely stoping it..? or maybe having the ability to block while swooping? i think these ideas would fit perfectly with halorins concept.. since im sure he wants melee to be the main and most complex part of the esf system

 

[Halorin]

I'm not fan of invincibility myself. I just figured reduced damage in combos and struggles would work best. Or in struggles, there could an invisible Gohan-like shield around the players, and only a certain strength attack could break through and break up the struggle and do full damage. There's a lot of options to play around and tinker with.

 

[Frank Einstein]

Those are very good ideas!

For some reason this system reminds me of DBZ legends for PSX, my fav DBZ game =).