ESF is broken

[Skiwan]

Im sorry to bring this up in here, but i do think its relevant to the topic, and i've just been through the worse night of my life, and at the moment i dont really feel like keeping my mouth shut over something like this.

I like you're input into the mod sub, you keep us on our toes, bring up very good points and are a very good representative of the pro fanbase, but in doing so you belittle the mod development way too much for your points to be taken seriously by other dev members. I hope you understand what im trying to say.

Im sorry for all the fuss i caused in the other thread, but i really didnt mean for that to happen, I wanted something productive to come of it instead of bickering which is what i dreaded the 4 times i reread my reply before i posted it, as im doing now.

So because a majority of the team wants to see how this plays out, and you disagree with them, you're trying to incite a riot? Sorry, Dave, but that's terribly unprofessional. You had a bad night, I can understand that, but that doesn't mean you can use that as an excuse to just say anything you like. I've edited out the 'details' part of your post, and I expect you're adult enough that I won't have to be editing your posts again in the future. - Pain

 

[imkongkong]

yea i agree with david, no need to belittle the mod team =o

we understand how you're not totally satisfied with 1.2.3.. 1.3 is heading into a new direction of gameplay which may change a bit of the mechanics of swoop and such.. but it's not very smart to bash it and stomp it dead when you haven't had first hand experience trying it out and playing with others.. imo i'm enjoyin the new things implemented a lot ^^

so don't bury the baby when it's not even born yet =o

 

[J-Dude]

Look, I like ESF, but in the main, it IS broken. Most video games have a learning curve in which you can be at or near pro-status over the course of a month. I was quite disappointed when I started playing ESF since that was quite obviously not the case. As was mentioned before, other players are simply too much better than everyone to allow for the learning curve to even mean anything, because it's hard to learn when you're having your ass handed to you on a platter and can't even see why it's hapenning.

I remember when I started playing ESF. For at least 2 weeks I didn't even understand advanced melee, or even how to beam-jump. It was worst when I couldn't find a single server to play in to hone any sort of skill.

I get the feeling that most any noob nowadays, unless they're a SERIOUSLY dedicated DBZ fan, like many of us, pick the mod up, try playing it for a few hours, and then give it up and shelve it.

I mean, it's fine to have a challenge, but even in Budokai 3 the noob who didn't know the control had something resembling a chance. I remember being surprised at how well my cousin played it when I got it Christmas day, because I had only told her a few controls. She had already teleported accidentally and had punted me to the other side of the screen .

Games like that are fun, where you have basic controls, but even the little guy stands a chance. It's more fun to play against someone on even ground than to slaughter noobs or try and tackle a super-pro, who will probably piss you off from his constant "Houdini" acts.

I personally have always loved the PL system. To me, THAT is what should determine your level. Sure, people grow in skill, but I think that a lot of BS could be spared if we could optionally decrease the sheer vastness and fractality of the game by using an auto-hone feature.

By this I mean, instead of killing yourself trying to match someone else's movement in the air, you can use your couter to identify the player, and then press a button to be essentially "locked-on", so that you move and aim in relation to the player selected. Of course, this function can be turned off at will, because it obviously disables the ability to "lead" an opponent with beam attacks. But really, you could do this if you're trying to learn ESF, so you can fight on similar terms. Because really, it can really suck to keep missing each other in midair.

I mean, I see all the BS when players are trying to tail each other for melee. It looks nothing like DBZ, it looks more like two bees hovering in a circle trying to sting each other. I know you're going for DBZ style, but I think it should be an option to actually be able to catch an opponent without getting carpal-tunnel trying to chase him like a dog with it's tail.

Obviously, pros, or players looking for a challenge can go traditional "stick shift" and play that way and be more challenged because of the handicapped "standard transmission" players (just playing off car terminology) because with this feature a noob can actually hit you.

I know this sounds like it may give noobs an unfair advantage, but let's face it: nobs don't stand a chance the way things are now, and if we can't get more noobs to play and learn, then this mod will die from people deciding to quit because ESF pisses them off more than any supposed fun they should be having can counter. A game is meant to be challenging, but it's also meant to be fun, and I think ESF currently leans WAY too far to the challenge side of the spectrum.

 

[sub]

Im sorry to bring this up in here, but i do think its relevant to the topic, and i've just been through the worse night of my life, and at the moment i dont really feel like keeping my mouth shut over something like this.

I like you're input into the mod sub, you keep us on our toes, bring up very good points and are a very good representative of the pro fanbase, but in doing so you belittle the mod development way too much for your points to be taken seriously by other dev members. I hope you understand what im trying to say.

Im sorry for all the fuss i caused in the other thread, but i really didnt mean for that to happen, I wanted something productive to come of it instead of bickering which is what i dreaded the 4 times i reread my reply before i posted it, as im doing now.

So because a majority of the team wants to see how this plays out, and you disagree with them, you're trying to incite a riot? Sorry, Dave, but that's terribly unprofessional. You had a bad night, I can understand that, but that doesn't mean you can use that as an excuse to just say anything you like. I've edited out the 'details' part of your post, and I expect you're adult enough that I won't have to be editing your posts again in the future. - Pain

I don't mean to belittle the team, I do realize that they're doing the mod for free. It's just that from the communities point of view, they're shutting us out. If something is in development, they can post it on the front page and have the community discuss it. If 1.3 in it's current form is what I'm lead to believe [IE: Nothing but new models and animations], then atleast have the honesty to tell the community that and say that you're working on it. All I want is honesty instead of being lied to... Because as it is right now, the message I'm getting is "WE HAVE AN AMAZING GAME UNDER WRAPS THAT WE'RE NOT TELLING THE COMMUNITY ABOUT BECAUSE THEY DONT DESERVE TO KNOW"... And I doubt that's true.

They're shutting us out. And apparently, they're continuing to do so by editing your post. I guess some things won't change.

Believe me guys, I wouldn't be being such an ******* if I didn't care about the game.

 

[Dokutayuu]

esf 1.2.3 does have a steep learning curve and there are walls people must climb over (or fall off trying) like 2 hit melee (took me 9 months that did).

However, this is probably the best DBZ bornulatedified. 1.3 does seem promising and ESF 1.2.3 is still a beta (has problems which may be overcame in final version).

So lets all eat our biscuits and await 1.3.

 

[~*Logan*~]

so don't bury the baby when it's not even born yet =o

Quoted for truth. Let me buy you a drink, kong.

 

[sub]

Or we could try avoiding another 1.2 and take an active role in the community instead of being a mindless drone. If you actually like the system, by all means voice that you like it, but if you dislike it and don't want to say anything, please man up and let your voice be heard. There's something inherently wrong with saying "let's wait and see"

 

[~*Logan*~]

Sub, I have faith that this mod will eventually turn out well. Remember the travesty of 1.2 with the new melee system and swooping? We found a way to use that well enough for fast fights anyway.

1.3 may be very very new, but if you bash it before you try it, then that's just showing ignorance. So what if it looks bad now for speed. Things are always subject to change. How hard is it to sit by and wait? Sure, voicing opinions are one thing, but doing it forcefully will just cause trouble.

The only people who know for sure are the ones who beta test. I'd love to be one myself to see just exactly what is truely on the way, but we just have to wait. No amount of arguing over a game that we haven't even played will fix it. Even if my favorite move is gimped or removed entirely, I'll find ways of making things work.

I can be patient. Can you?

 

[imkongkong]

remember

more trans = faster speeds

=x

 

[~*Logan*~]

remember

more trans = faster speeds

=x

The only thing I hope for is balanced speeds between everyone.

 

[sub]

Sub, I have faith that this mod will eventually turn out well. Remember the travesty of 1.2 with the new melee system and swooping? We found a way to use that well enough for fast fights anyway.

I hope that the mod will eventually turn out well, but I don't want to take any chances. I do remember the travesty of 1.2 with it's new melee system and swooping. I also remember Halorin posting on the forums how bad it was and almost getting banned in the process. I then remember Halorin becoming a beta tester because of his views. I then remember having a conversation with him after 1.2 was released about him as a beta tester. Apparently, the team was adamant on getting rid of simple melee all together and only having advanced melee in the final version. Halorin convinced them otherwise.

Oh, and I as well as almost everyone else [including yourself] rarely use advanced melee.

1.3 may be very very new, but if you bash it before you try it, then that's just showing ignorance. So what if it looks bad now for speed. Things are always subject to change. How hard is it to sit by and wait? Sure, voicing opinions are one thing, but doing it forcefully will just cause trouble.

Change is only good when it changes for the better. Surely you can't fault me in wanting to ensure that the changes made are truly for the better? You may call "bashing it before you try it" ignorance, but I call waiting until it's too late to do anything about the problem foolish.

The only people who know for sure are the ones who beta test. I'd love to be one myself to see just exactly what is truely on the way, but we just have to wait. No amount of arguing over a game that we haven't even played will fix it. Even if my favorite move is gimped or removed entirely, I'll find ways of making things work.

Yes, you are correct. We've heard from David, who is a team member and a beta tester and KWS, who is a beta tester, and Smith who was a beta tester and they have all voiced concern about the direction the mod is headed. Adding to that, Zeo played a leaked version of 1.3 recently and just posted a very negative review of it on the ZR forums. Pain said all of his points were spot on.

I can be patient. Can you?

So, to answer your question, no, I refuse to be.

 

[imkongkong]

there was a document on the main page for advance melee if you want to know how its planned

 

[Skiwan]

So because a majority of the team wants to see how this plays out, and you disagree with them, you're trying to incite a riot? Sorry, Dave, but that's terribly unprofessional. You had a bad night, I can understand that, but that doesn't mean you can use that as an excuse to just say anything you like. I've edited out the 'details' part of your post, and I expect you're adult enough that I won't have to be editing your posts again in the future. - Pain

I dont mind you editing my posts, what i do mind is how you are treating this, I kicked up this fuss because i spend a lot of time and effort for this mod, and i care about the community and its success. I unlike you have a much greater rapor with the more dedicated players with the game (as you alienate them for their provocative views), and I'm only trying to add their insight to make this mod as successful as possible. I believe you're your the one being unproffessional, to belittle me infront of this community (as you would normally pm a team member about such things, and discuss it in private) I believe it is you who is the one doing more harm to the mods development than me, I have a viewpoint which i dont think is backed up by the majority of the team because they just dont have the same - ingame understanding of ESF as I do. I'm also backed up by the few other team members who share such experience with the mod. Most players have always agreed with me with development dessicisions as I offer balanced and indepth incites into suggestions and things to be implemented, I dont mean to come of as arrogant, but I think the team has lost their way on the new concepts for the game. I do like the changes in the beta, but im trying to make the rest of the team understand how I think the changes will be taken by the community, and their concerns, which if you hadnt noticed have already been expressed by a few commited members and no doubt other members will find these changes a cause of concern.

 

[Majin_You]

I dont mind you editing my posts, what i do mind is how you are treating this, I kicked up this fuss because i spend a lot of time and effort for this mod, and i care about the community and its success. I unlike you have a much greater rapor with the more dedicated players with the game (as you alienate them for their provocative views), and I'm only trying to add their insight to make this mod as successful as possible. I believe you're your the one being unproffessional, to belittle me infront of this community (as you would normally pm a team member about such things, and discuss it in private) I believe it is you who is the one doing more harm to the mods development than me, I have a viewpoint which i dont think is backed up by the majority of the team because they just dont have the same - ingame understanding of ESF as I do. I'm also backed up by the few other team members who share such experience with the mod. Most players have always agreed with me with development dessicisions as I offer balanced and indepth incites into suggestions and things to be implemented, I dont mean to come of as arrogant, but I think the team has lost their way on the new concepts for the game. I do like the changes in the beta, but im trying to make the rest of the team understand how I think the changes will be taken by the community, and their concerns, which if you hadnt noticed have already been expressed by a few commited members and no doubt other members will find these changes a cause of concern.

While I understand that you're trying to straighten out the fact that you are in-touch with the player base and are attempting to act in a fashion that reflects your sentiment, I'm going to state that this is the first and final advisory I make to keep this kind of personal bickering out of the thread. As members of the development staff, you should be sorting this out in private, regardless of who said what first. Don't hamper an honest attempt at constructive criticism with such posts.

Like I said - this will be the only advisory of this type that will be issued in this thread. If both the community and the team are genuinely concerned about this issue, the thread will stay on track. Are we clear, folks?

EDIT - And I advise anyone who disagrees with my ruling to contact me in private. Failing to do so will be very unhealthy for the thread.

 

[Pain]

It's just that from the communities point of view, they're shutting us out.

You don't speak for the community. You speak for yourself, and it's obvious you only see what you want to see. This is an old argument, we've been over this. If we were 'shutting you out' there would no updates ever. We'd just spring 1.3 on the world without ever having said a word. As it stands right now, this is not so, and thus your tired argument is void.

If something is in development, they can post it on the front page and have the community discuss it.

Seen the main page lately?

If 1.3 in it's current form is what I'm lead to believe [IE: Nothing but new models and animations], then atleast have the honesty to tell the community that and say that you're working on it.

The phrase WIP comes to mind.

All I want is honesty instead of being lied to... Because as it is right now, the message I'm getting is "WE HAVE AN AMAZING GAME UNDER WRAPS THAT WE'RE NOT TELLING THE COMMUNITY ABOUT BECAUSE THEY DONT DESERVE TO KNOW"... And I doubt that's true.

Once again we come back to your close minded view of the situation. As said before, features that aren't at least somewhat polished are not revealed (officially at least), in part due to the chance that they might be scrapped all together. It's not going to change, stop making the argument.

They're shutting us out. And apparently, they're continuing to do so by editing your post. I guess some things won't change.

I edited his post because it was of the same criteria, which you've already seen, which wasn't supposed to be released yet. Cut me some slack for doing some damage control. It would be like asking Gabe Newell why he didn't support handing out copys of the leaked version of HL2.

Believe me guys, I wouldn't be being such an ******* if I didn't care about the game.

I believe you do care about the game, however, I believe you also have a sense of entitlement where one is not warranted. This also happens to be the point that you don't seem to understand.

 

[sub]

You don't speak for the community. You speak for yourself, and it's obvious you only see what you want to see. This is an old argument, we've been over this. If we were 'shutting you out' there would no updates ever. We'd just spring 1.3 on the world without ever having said a word. As it stands right now, this is not so, and thus your tired argument is void.

Pain, do you even realize what the community is? The community I speak of isn't the people on this forum, it's the people that actually play the game. Most people on this forum don't play the game

Seen the main page lately?

http://www.esforces.com/?p=news_archive

Not counting team members being added, there are about 9 news updates pertaining to 1.3 since "Sun, 20 Mar 2005", with most of them being map screenshots or a small video. Not a lot of information

The phrase WIP comes to mind.Once again we come back to your close minded view of the situation. As said before, features that aren't at least somewhat polished are not revealed (officially at least), in part due to the chance that they might be scrapped all together. It's not going to change, stop making the argument.

You avoided the point I was trying to make. Also, I realize I may have a closed minded view of the situation, but so do you.

I edited his post because it was of the same criteria, which you've already seen, which wasn't supposed to be released yet. Cut me some slack for doing some damage control. It would be like asking Gabe Newell why he didn't support handing out copys of the leaked version of HL2.

I didn't ask for the beta, I asked for a preview of it. It would be more like HL2 getting a previewed.. And coincidentally, HL2 received more previews than the vast majority of games out there

I believe you do care about the game, however, I believe you also have a sense of entitlement where one is not warranted. This also happens to be the point that you don't seem to understand.

Right, community doesn't deserve to know about the game. Got it. For the record, I'm changing my server to a different mod and withdrawing my support for the game. Number of servers in America ESF has up at the moment: 1, and it's not even fully dedicated, it's hosted off someones computer.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1323/gore994x440iv1.jpg

Pains rebuttle to this point: You aren't the community. See point Number 1. We're walking in circles.


~removed~

Keep in mind, I do still have concerns [Mainly over how complex the game will be and how it seems like ESF is turning into a fighting game...], but it did clear up some issues.

 

[Pain]

Right, community doesn't deserve to know about the game. Got it.

Apparently anything I say will only register that in your head. I won't bother anymore.

On top of that, Kong shouldn't have been speaking with the two of you. I'm glad it cleared some things up, but linking to leaked material is bad. It gets you a warning. See you in two weeks.

 

[=->Goku<-=]

I believe that a lot of points made in this tread are valid. A lot are not. But I think we may be getting a little too, hmmm, greedy? We are almost acting like sharks in a feeding frenzy trying to fill our bellies.
I personally do not want to pi$$ off any of the game developers. Damn, they are GIVING us this mod, and working hard to do so. I personally can not wait till they give us ANYTHING.
I am not trying to be an a$$, or anything here, but I know I didn't pay to have this mod, did you?
For crying out loud, if we want complete perfection, then maybe we should all start coughing up some serious zinni so that these guys can quit their day jobs, or quit school, whatever the case may be, to develop this into the end-all & be-all of all games.
$hit, you guys, maybe we should just find an old "suggestion box" thread (if it exists) and just post requests, or suggestions only. Or if this thread does not exist, then one of the admins could creat a sticky-thread on this subject.
I am not saying that there couldn't be "negative" suggestions, like "well if you were to do this, then this would happen", type of thing, but not "well this totally sucks this way because of that".
I have a feeling that is like slapping one of the developers in the face and calling him a name, way to go smeghead.
Lets just let them do what they do best, afterall they are our friends, right?
Talk to them. I am sure they ARE willing to listen (obviously, since a couple have posted on this thread too).


BTW, Davidskiwan, sorry to here you had such a $hitty day, I hope everything will be okay.

 

[john_volkov]

Sub the community dose not have to know about the game because we want to be suprise when it's out , and if they say what they do in the game evry time some other addons will steal the esf ideeas.

 

[Adaptus]

Sub the community dose not have to know about the game because we want to be suprise when it's out , and if they say what they do in the game evry time some other addons will steal the esf ideeas.

'Stealing' an idea is one thing, but actually going ahead and putting it into your own mod? That's entirely different. It takes a lot more work.

I doubt the Team is seriously worried about that.

The Team just wants there to be an element of surprise for people when they first play 1.3. It's that simple.

It doesn't have to do with not wanting to include the community.