Xbox One

[Deverz]

http://i.imgur.com/UzIXti8.png

Fair comparison I think

 

[Zeonix]

You're not connecting the dots. Steam is capable of making those kinds of deals precisely because used games are a non-issue for the PC. They basically don't exist. That's what the X1 was attempting to do. Make everything digital, and that eliminates used sales. No used sales means people are actually buying the games, and so the publishers are making money. Then allow people to trade or sell the license to their digital game, where part of the price goes to the publisher and the rest to the original owner. Because the publisher is making money on a used sale, they don't have to charge as much upfront (which basically includes a resale tax; you're paying for people who buy the game on the cheap in addition to the actual game), allowing cheaper upfront costs for us and sales later on down the line. This didn't happen overnight with Steam. They had to create a foundation first, and everyone hated that foundation. You couldn't go anywhere without reading about how much it sucked. But in the end, it worked out because they had a plan, they stuck to it and they adjusted based on feedback. When the only feedback is "**** YOU I WONT BUY YOUR CONSOLE LETS GO PS4", they obliged. But you can't have it both ways. You either embrace a digital future or you hold on to a physical past, and pretend Sony is doing something remarkable by keep everything exactly the same.

@Dev: That list is incomplete, as you can use an external hdd as your primary.

 

[Deverz]

@Dev: That list is incomplete, as you can use an external hdd as your primary.

Not my list, It's making its rounds on the internet

I wasn't away xbone allowed ext hdd as primary

 

[Zeonix]

The problem is, you really couldn't effectively trade or borrow games with that setup, which is a good reason to have a console in the first place. You don't get a pc because all your friends have a pc.

How's that? If every game is tied to your account, and you have a license for every game, you'd have been able to sell or trade that license to another person. If you sell it, part of the price goes to the publisher. This brings down upfront costs for games. Would this have happened immediately? No, because its a new and unproven system on a new and unproven console. Lack of instant gratification isn't really a legitimate reason to not support what they were trying to do. As for PCs, they aren't gaming platforms. You don't get a pc because all of your friends have a pc, but you also don't get a pc just to play games. Well, the majority of people don't, and even those that do end up doing a myriad of things on their system, anyway. That was also what the X1 was shooting for. Yeah, its main purpose is to play games, but it'd be your multimedia hub capable of doing just about everything. It was just a matter of fine-tuning (like why do I need to have a gold membership to watch netflix? Shits retarded).

 

[DaRkOwNs]

I do understand and respect the argument for digital dominant gaming. My big problem with the setup was the inability to trade with friends, or just simply lend a game. If they had amended that, I wouldn't have been really against everything else.

That is the problem, generally. People don't get pc's because their friends have pc's, at least not many. But consoles are about that ability to be like "Hey dawg, that's a cool game, mindifiborrowdat?". and even just be able to play it somewhere else and not have to go through a hassle to do it, including waiting for a download timer.

@Dio
Sorry, I deleted my post and started over while you were replying.

 

[Zeonix]

I do understand and respect the argument for digital dominant gaming. My big problem with the setup was the inability to trade with friends, or just simply lend a game. If they had amended that, I wouldn't have been really against everything else.

That is the problem, generally. People don't get pc's because their friends have pc's, at least not many. But consoles are about that ability to be like "Hey dawg, that's a cool game, mindifiborrowdat?". and even just be able to play it somewhere else and not have to go through a hassle to do it, including waiting for a download timer.

You were capable of trading a game once to a friend who'd been on your friends list for at least 30 days.

As for a download timer, it goes back to instant gratification again. And I'm starting to get pretty annoyed with my generation.

 

[pumadace2000]

You're not connecting the dots. Steam is capable of making those kinds of deals precisely because used games are a non-issue for the PC. They basically don't exist. That's what the X1 was attempting to do.

But they did exist. Until steam and other services appeared and took their territory away more and more until they completely disappeared into oblivion. So why don't they do it like this. Instead of making DRM BS and saying you have to use this just like we say or else we will make the console piss itself and die, why not implement a digital distribution system that starts making deals. Used games are not going anywhere as long as they keep appealing to people more because they are cheaper. But if people get slowly taught that it's good and beneficial for them( and the publishers )to buy a game legitimately then lure them in to do this by offering them cheap older games, that a few months ago they could not afford. Weekly sale of a game. Holiday Specials with large amount of games. Like GoG are doing right now! Holy cow is that no DRM sale freaking amazing! If only I had held back on buying two of the games that are now for half price there (

Back on topic.

I mean really Microsoft and publishers seemed to cooperate just fine before. Microsoft make a DRM-ridden field, Publishers make the rules. So why would it be so impossible for them to be like: Microsoft make a digital distribution system that has deals and offers and publishers lock out content from used games, that unlock for free for having a legal copy. Slowly but surely this should eliminate used games entirely withing a few years. GameStop will be pissed off and boy will they push to sell their used games, but who gives a **** about GameStop? Used games should disappear if they become lesser to the new and legit ones.

 

[Zeonix]

Publishers aren't willing to start giving anything away until they're guaranteed to make money. Forcing digital distribution and having DRM was that guarantee. There will be no deals or sales until the publishers see no alternative, and the used game lobby is apparently too big to fight. Congrats, everyone's in bed with Gamestop, the place that will buy something you've used once for 3 dollars and sell it for 50.

 

[pumadace2000]

Publishers aren't willing to start giving anything away until they're guaranteed to make money. Forcing digital distribution and having DRM was that guarantee. There will be no deals or sales until the publishers see no alternative, and the used game lobby is apparently too big to fight. Congrats, everyone's in bed with Gamestop, the place that will buy something you've used once for 3 dollars and sell it for 50.

Ah so they can't make sacrifices. No one said anything about giving jack shit away. Start with 33%-50% off deals maybe 60% if some publisher is willing and go from there.

But the customers have to make all the necessary sacrifices, as in lose the entire console just because their entourage sucks.

You know if they aren't going to do anything about solving the used game problems and just assume that their customers are criminals (as in criminals because they buy used games) so they have to control these hooligans, then I say they deserve to get ripped off by game if the solution of putting a leash on everyone was the best they could come up with, because it's safe and they won't have to go to therapy because they sold their games on a weekly-monthly or holiday special deal for 50% off.

 

[Zeonix]

Ah so they can't make sacrifices. No one said anything about giving jack shit away. Start with 33%-50% off deals maybe 60% if some publisher is willing and go from there.

But the customers have to make all the necessary sacrifices, as in lose the entire console just because their entourage sucks.

You know if they aren't going to do anything about solving the used game problems and just assume that their customers are criminals (as in criminals because they buy used games) so they have to control these hooligans, then I say they deserve to get ripped off by game if that solution of putting a leash on everyone was the best they could come up with, because it's safe and they won't have to go to therapy because they sold their games on a weekly deal for 50% off.

And all of that is why $60 dollars is the standard, regardless of length or content therein.

 

[Grega]

Ah so they can't make sacrifices. No one said anything about giving jack shit away. Start with 33%-50% off deals maybe 60% if some publisher is willing and go from there.

But the customers have to make all the necessary sacrifices, as in lose the entire console just because their entourage sucks.

You know if they aren't going to do anything about solving the used game problems and just assume that their customers are criminals (as in criminals because they buy used games) so they have to control these hooligans, then I say they deserve to get ripped off by game if thesolution of putting a leash on everyone was the best they could come up with, because it's safe and they won't have to go to therapy because they sold their games on a weekly-monthly or holiday special deal for 50% off.

I think you misunderstand the point a bit. They allowed for lending the games. They allowed for 2 people to play the same game AT THE SAME TIME, they allowed your family to freely play your games. The system that got removed was in essence the same as it is now. The fact that you have cloud processing acting as a pseudo DRM and always on connection deal is still there. The fact that Kinect has to be plugged in and may or may not be used to spy on people is still there. The fact that games with could processing (and according to announcements there are quite a few of them) will not work with connection issues is still there.

The only thing that really changed is the notion that you no longer need to bind a game to your account in order to play it. What changed were MINOR issues, while the MAJOR things stayed as they were.

Also you are saying 33 to 50% discounts are a small starting deal. Dont kid yourself. Discounts come when you can afford them. And how can they be afforded if half the people who you are providing a service for got it essentially for free, because all the cash went to someone else and not the people responsible for the creation of the product.

Thats not how economy works. And quite frankly even with this change Xbone is still the shorter straw considering that you need a bloody camera that is technically active to do anything on it.

 

[pumadace2000]

Also you are saying 33 to 50% discounts are a small starting deal. Dont kid yourself. Discounts come when you can afford them. And how can they be afforded if half the people who you are providing a service for got it essentially for free, because all the cash went to someone else and not the people responsible for the creation of the product.

Thats not how economy works. And quite frankly even with this change Xbone is still the shorter straw considering that you need a bloody camera that is technically active to do anything on it.

The way I see it is that used games are cheaper than new games. That is why people buy them. Why would console developers be so poor to not afford to give their game for 33% off for one week? I mean it could literally just start from one publisher a few of their games 33% off for a week. Or one game 50% off for a day, a day that comes once a week, or once a month?

How can the games on steam pull off such insane deals when games on PC generally sell worse on that platform if they also happen to be available on consoles and aren't ported like poo. Deus Ex and Arkham city Goty for 75% off twice in a year. Does this mean they could only afford to do this on the PC because their games sold better on the console for full or close to full price?

 

[Z Power]

Would you buy it for 33% off new when you could buy it when its 50% off used? Highly doubtful.

I agree with Zeo. I mean, you only have to look at how steam was in the early years. If your net went down you couldn't even play a single player game because of some stupid offline error that requires you to go offline when you are online to be able to play offline in the first place. Lineception. The main problem with PCs was and is piracy, which is why Steam deals weren't the hotstuffs that they are today. But slowly Steam trudged through with their ideals and now look where they are.

Make no mistake, I plan on getting neither of the consoles even though there are games I want to play because screw exclusives. I will not support that crap.

 

[pumadace2000]

Would you buy it for 33% off new when you could buy it when its 50% off used? Highly doubtful.

I agree with Zeo. I mean, you only have to look at how steam was in the early years. If your net went down you couldn't even play a single player game because of some stupid offline error that requires you to go offline when you are online to be able to play offline in the first place. Lineception. The main problem with PCs was and is piracy, which is why Steam deals weren't the hotstuffs that they are today. But slowly Steam trudged through with their ideals and now look where they are.

Make no mistake, I plan on getting neither of the consoles even though there are games I want to play because screw exclusives. I will not support that crap.

Again if games would go the Arkham games route and Mass Effect 2 route I would buy it for 33% off if there is an extra content dlc for free for a legit game and I would feel pretty stupid buying it for 50% off used when a thing will appear asking me to insert a code in to unlock some content for free and I would have no such thing. That's what I'm trying to put out. Publishers do something! Educate your customers, slowly and surely.

 

[Grega]

Again if games would go the Arkham games route and Mass Effect 2 route I would buy it for 33% off if there is an extra content dlc for free for a legit game and I would feel pretty stupid buying it for 50% off used when a thing will appear asking me to insert a code in to unlock some content for free and I would have no such thing. That's what I'm trying to put out. Publishers do something! Educate your customers, slowly and surely.

It took STEAM 6 YEARS to get to that point. It was not done over night it was 6 bloody years. And the reason why PC games are like that despite worse sales, is because the games are developed for consoles and then ported to PC which makes the ports a lower cost. Add the fact that there is no such thing as a used games market and special sales are a viable option. But again it took 6 years for that to be considered.

You cant just say look at the games out now, when the console market has a 6 year long gap to fill to get to that point.

 

[pumadace2000]

It took STEAM 6 YEARS to get to that point. It was not done over night it was 6 bloody years. And the reason why PC games are like that despite worse sales, is because the games are developed for consoles and then ported to PC which makes the ports a lower cost. Add the fact that there is no such thing as a used games market and special sales are a viable option. But again it took 6 years for that to be considered.

You cant just say look at the games out now, when the console market has a 6 year long gap to fill to get to that point.

I do remember mentioning over time. Did you think I meant over night? They tried forced quick innovation through DRM and look where that got them. The mentality has to be build for a while, a long while, I repeat people have to be eased in. I simply cannot accept that such big companies who despite having the problems of used games still have their games sell so well on consoles, can only dedicate money for DRM and such other BS that would help them control their customers but they can't dedicate a few years to slowly but surely build up some sort of mentality to educate people so that in one day when they happen to stumble upon a deal they give them slightly less money for their games rather then them not giving them any money at all.

You know a fun fact about dogs? Most of them like having a leash put on them. Why? Because in time they learn that the leash means they get to explore new territory and relieve themselves on it as they please. They will not like the leash if for them it only means they have to go to the vet, a.k.a. the scary guy that stings them with needles.

Yes if they want people not to buy their games illegitimately they have to put some sort of a leash on customers. But make that leash be mutually beneficial, not flat out restrictive as d**ks. Once again, I repeat, they, the poor big companies can't dedicate a few holidays and some days a year to their customers and make them feel like they get value for money when they do stuff right, then no wonder their dogs keep starting to whine and resist the minute they see the leash incoming. Now they take their toys away and blame it on them for whining and resisting.

Like the guy who keeps shouting at me whenever something goes wrong in a battle in Shogun 2:"A shameful display!"

 

[Zeonix]

 

[Horatio]

^ That

 

[Grega]

I do remember mentioning over time. Did you think I meant over night? They tried forced quick innovation through DRM and look where that got them. The mentality has to be build for a while, a long while, I repeat people have to be eased in. I simply cannot accept that such big companies who despite having the problems of used games still have their games sell so well on consoles, can only dedicate money for DRM and such other BS that would help them control their customers but they can't dedicate a few years to slowly but surely build up some sort of mentality to educate people so that in one day when they happen to stumble upon a deal they give them slightly less money for their games rather then them not giving them any money at all.

You know a fun fact about dogs? Most of them like having a leash put on them. Why? Because in time they learn that the leash means they get to explore new territory and relieve themselves on it as they please. They will not like the leash if for them it only means they have to go to the vet, a.k.a. the scary guy that stings them with needles.

Yes if they want people not to buy their games illegitimately they have to put some sort of a leash on customers. But make that leash be mutually beneficial, not flat out restrictive as d**ks. Once again, I repeat, they, the poor big companies can't dedicate a few holidays and some days a year to their customers and make them feel like they get value for money when they do stuff right, then no wonder their dogs keep starting to whine and resist the minute they see the leash incoming. Now they take their toys away and blame it on them for whining and resisting.

Like the guy who keeps shouting at me whenever something goes wrong in a battle in Shogun 2:"A shameful display!"

You complain about the DRM, but praise STEAM. STEAM is nothing more than DRM that comes with an online store. Its the same bloody thing, only that you CAN NOT have a family list with shared games, you CAN NOT resell your games, you CAN NOT lend those games to a friend and so on.

And you say over time, but are flat out ignoring the time needed for the economic model to shift by forcing discounts. There is a time needed for discounts like that even for one day a month or year to be a viable option.

STEAM had no discounts or anything like that for years. It was just DRM with a store for Valve games. And a shitty DRM at that as it caused all sorts of problems for its users, and used up a lot of system resources at the same time. If you want the change to happen, you have to sit through the initial years that are total shit. Its the gamble on your part. Especially since the whole 24 hour check thing is a lot more stable than the use of cloud processing for single player games.

As for the poor big companies. They waste more money on a single game than you will see in your life. Now considering that only 1 or 2 games out of 10 are a hit enough to make a profit, you should see the problem. Not every company has CoD-tards who buy every remake every year or something similar. Most of them actually have to do shit. Hell THQ one of the best publishers with arguably the most interesting games went down just recently, despite having great games. Just because they didnt stick to one and the same formula. So yes doing discounts right off the bat with no shift in the economic model is impossible and flat out stupid as a practice for the companies.

On the other hand you still have most of the restrictions that were there in the first place. This victory only goes far enough to eliminate region block. The DRM is there in the form of cloud processing, Kinect must still be plugged in and powered on. Even if you disable it you still cant be sure its totally shut off. And you still have an extra component that can break in the console. Because if kinect breaks, you officially can no longer use the bloody console.

So tell me again what restrictions besides the region block were lifted?

 

[pumadace2000]

On the other hand you still have most of the restrictions that were there in the first place. This victory only goes far enough to eliminate region block. The DRM is there in the form of cloud processing, Kinect must still be plugged in and powered on. Even if you disable it you still cant be sure its totally shut off. And you still have an extra component that can break in the console. Because if kinect breaks, you officially can no longer use the bloody console.

So tell me again what restrictions besides the region block were lifted?

Wah wah wah wait a second. How did Cloud still stay there? Didn't they say that now the Xbone doesn't have to be connected to the internet to play offline games? If you can play games offline why is cloud still there? Would it not be optional for games that would need it, as in if they are or have some form of multiplayer that is more than a map with 32 or so people on it( or is 32 too much?) that is assuming the BS they try to push for the cloud services actually work. Also are people still believing in that stupid cloud BS? Sim City anyone?!
As for the Kinect yeah that is pretty stupid that it's part of the console and that it can't be optional. I know one really fat but also really funny person that may not be able to use the new Kinect because it will mistake him for his couch.