Vegeta SSJ2 before Majin?

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You corrected me with another fans guess. It clearly states in that link "It says these pages are "based on training data supervised by Toriyama", though just exactly what this means is unclear" showing that, you have not corrected anything. All you have done is shown another persons interpretation of what happened.


i dunno guys .... both arguments are completely retarded .... how can u automatically assume that Vegeta couldn't go SSJ2 before ... heck in the manga we have no proof that Goku could go SSJ2 before he came to earth either .... ur not using correct logic here mcdaddy. besides i think vegeta would b able to master SSJ2 after the Cell games. he would have some kind of anger tiff with his pride about Gohan being SSJ2 and he would eventually become SSJ2. the only reason why Vegeta went majin was because he knew that even as SSJ2 Kakarot still had more power. he was able to kill yakon with his ki alone and still have more than enough in his reserve. obviously this was because Goku had the SSJ3 potential Vegeta didn't know about. Vegeta is a talented warrior .... he can size up a warrior pretty easily. even though he didnt know Goku could go SSj3 .... he still knew he was a lot more powerful than Vegeta was himself, even if they both did master SSJ2.

and in the dialogue it seems clear that Vegeta KNEW he could go SSJ2 before he powered up for it.
 
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I think vegeta was able to go ssj2, because in the link I've posted to the manga, he is way to calm while he realize goku can go ssj2. If he couldn't go ssj2 then he would be really angry or at least mad, but in the manga he's totally calm. But what I can't find is that he said that he is weaker than goku at this moment.

edit.//

He would react like this, I guess:

http://i31.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/504/dragon-ball-72304.jpg
 
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I think vegeta was able to go ssj2, because in the link I've posted to the manga, he is way to calm while he realize goku can go ssj2. If he couldn't go ssj2 then he would be really angry or at least mad, but in the manga he's totally calm. But what I can't find is that he said that he is weaker than goku at this moment.
Point taken! Because he was rather astonished when Goku went SS3
 
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Im of the opinion that Majin is a transformation too and not just a power up.
And this is where I stopped reading your post. Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense, because Babidi "released Vegeta's hidden powers" (on top of trying to take him under control, of course), that's all.

That's everything what I could found:

http://i4.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/452/dragon-ball-71644.jpg

and i can't find sth else (that he realise his ss2 is not enough against goku). In the german dbz he said the same.
TBH that's a terrible scanlation. This is what Vegeta actually said:

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: โ€œSo that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wallโ€ฆThe Super Saiyan wallโ€ฆโ€
It may not be too obvious from the manga itself, but that's why we have guidebooks.
 
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It may not be too obvious from the manga itself, but that's why we have guidebooks.
I never saw a guidebook. Hell, i do not even know they exist. xD

Hey hlev, do you have a guidbook with this moment? Whats written in there? Could you make a pic or sth similar? I'm really interested in it, because I believe vegeta would react more emotionally instead of being that calm. Like here: http://i31.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/504/dragon-ball-72304.jpg

Are the guidebooks from akira, too?
 
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I don't own anything related to DB. Unlike DB manga, I doubt the guidebooks are fully scanned and published on the internet, only certain pages (in Japanese, obviously). You can find the list of the guidebooks here.

And I already told that the guidebook(s) tells that Vegeta (and Goku) achieved SSJ2 through training, unlike Gohan. While Akira Toriyama wasn't directly the one who wrote everything in the guidebooks (as some of them focus on anime, some on manga), the guidebooks were supervised by him (to an unknown extent). Basically the information found in the guidebooks was "approved" by Akira Toriyama, in a way. Guidebooks have their own inconsistencies, though.
 
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And this is where I stopped reading your post. Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense, because Babidi "released Vegeta's hidden powers" (on top of trying to take him under control, of course), that's all.
Right....so the M on his head just got drawn with a pen....Majin seems to be a transformation to me just like how in SSJ2 just their hair goes funkier and have lightning around them. One could argue that SSJ2 is also just a powerup since you never actually see their first transformation. They both achieved it off camera.

A transformation doesnt necessarily imply a change of the xterior.
And I would like an opinion from the team on my argument about Majin being in the game although I am aware it has been discussed before... (dont think it can get any more annoying than askin for a release date)
To add to the argument, the amount of power Majin gave Vegeta would also be a good justification as to why it should be added in ESF Final, because compared to Kaioken which is overshadowed by SSJ1 therefore rendered useless in a short time in the game, Majin would be permanent and a last transformation. This can also close the gap between SSJ3 Goku and Vegeta and it would also be easy to implement as you could use the same xact model and animations for Majin, just put that fancy M on his head. His signature attacks are the only thing that would be an argument to not putting him in the game.
 
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Majin isn't a power up or a transformation. its a buff. to have majin you must have babidi. babidi isn't in the game so majin isn't in the game.
 
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Majin isn't a power up or a transformation. its a buff. to have majin you must have babidi. babidi isn't in the game so majin isn't in the game.
It's possible that in ESFF Vegeta will have Majin SSJ2 as his 2nd transformation.
 
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Majin isn't a power up or a transformation. its a buff. to have majin you must have babidi. babidi isn't in the game so majin isn't in the game.
I'm the same opinion as Grega: It's a powerup (in form of a buff).

One could argue that SSJ2 is also just a powerup since you never actually see their first transformation. They both achieved it off camera.
Nope, it's a transformation, because we can prove it with Gohan. If he has to transform into ssj2, goku and vegeta have to do as well. I guess the reason they didn't show it to us is, because it wasn't sth "special" or without any "special conditions".
 
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Toriyama was pretty lazy for a mangaka, that's probably where most of the confussion about DB-related things among its fans come from.
 
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I'm the same opinion as Grega: It's a powerup (in form of a buff).



Nope, it's a transformation, because we can prove it with Gohan. If he has to transform into ssj2, goku and vegeta have to do as well. I guess the reason they didn't show it to us is, because it wasn't sth "special" or without any "special conditions".
True a lot of "achieve transformations" happened off camera even if it the first time we see that transformation (ssj3 is a fine example)..... majin is a power up but not "turn into ssj if you're saiyan" power up.
 
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Powerups:
-Kaioken
-100% Frieza
-USSJ
-Majin

Powerups differ from transformations in such a way, that they affect the current form. The best examples of the bunch are USSJ and Kaioken (100% Frieza is pretty much equal to USSJ in the way it functions). With those power ups they dont surpass the form they are in, they enhance it. As such a buff is a nice way to describe the state.

Majin is a buff that affects Vegetas normal form. Because of the buff on his normal form, his SSJ forms also gain power from it.

Conclusion Majin is a buff/power up on the same level as USSJ, 100% Frieza, Kaioken and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jF6w5tonmw
 
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Super Saiyan Grade II and Grade III are officially classified as transformations.
So bulking up with a speed decrease translates into a transformation, but having appear a magic M on your forehead accompanied with a similar increase in power with no drawbacks doesn't? This would also mean that 100% Frieza is a transformation since it is xactly the same concept as USSJ.

To me, anything that is permanent or can be sustained for long periods of time SEAMLESSLY is NOT a powerup. Otherwise SSJ would also be a "powerup" and not a transformation since it can't be sustained forever as it drains Ki. Also, the definition of a buff is essentially the same as a powerup:
Buff = "A form of Status effect, a temporary beneficial effect" with the only difference from a powerup being that some buffs can be turned on and off at will. Couldn't this definition also class SSJ as a buff? So any SSJ form is actually either a powerup or a buff according to what has been said so far in this thread.

Kaioken IS a powerup since it can't be sustained for long, its temporary or used in short on & off bursts when needed. You can pull on me all the manga proof and whatever guide stuff you wish regarding what I just said but I'm just going about this logically.
 
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So bulking up with a speed decrease translates into a transformation, but having appear a magic M on your forehead accompanied with a similar increase in power with no drawbacks doesn't? This would also mean that 100% Frieza is a transformation since it is xactly the same concept as USSJ.
That's not for you, me, or anyone else who doesn't have any copyrights to Dragon Ball to decide. So give up on that matter.
 
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Powerups:
-Kaioken
-100% Frieza
-USSJ
-Majin

Powerups differ from transformations in such a way, that they affect the current form. The best examples of the bunch are USSJ and Kaioken (100% Frieza is pretty much equal to USSJ in the way it functions). With those power ups they dont surpass the form they are in, they enhance it. As such a buff is a nice way to describe the state.

Majin is a buff that affects Vegetas normal form. Because of the buff on his normal form, his SSJ forms also gain power from it.

THATS A PERFECT IDEA!!!! so what if you had this. once Vegeta gets to SSJ2 (and has perfected it) ALLOW HIM TO GO MAJIN which increases his power ... but the Majin STAYS WITH HIM IN ANY TRANSFORMATION. so he has the Majin in normal/ss1/&ss2. definitely helps against all the other classes with like 3-4 transformations each. of course Majin CAN NOT B REMOVED UNTIL DEATH (downside of Majin is, faster ki burn up in those forms as well and/or lesser hp regen) & of course he would b able to use his IMBA AOE move (Final Explosion) he used on Majin Buu, but of course it would b a suicide each time, only in ss2.

oh n also .... Krillin's transformation should b considered a power up to if the above is ur definition. (and it's still in the game ^_^ just a thought khekhekhe)
 
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THATS A PERFECT IDEA!!!! so what if you had this. once Vegeta gets to SSJ2 (and has perfected it) ALLOW HIM TO GO MAJIN which increases his power ... but the Majin STAYS WITH HIM IN ANY TRANSFORMATION. so he has the Majin in normal/ss1/&ss2. definitely helps against all the other classes with like 3-4 transformations each. of course Majin CAN NOT B REMOVED UNTIL DEATH (downside of Majin is, faster ki burn up in those forms as well and/or lesser hp regen) & of course he would b able to use his IMBA AOE move (Final Explosion) he used on Majin Buu, but of course it would b a suicide each time, only in ss2.

oh n also .... Krillin's transformation should b considered a power up to if the above is ur definition. (and it's still in the game ^_^ just a thought khekhekhe)
Krillin falls in the same Category as Trunks. There is just nothing else to give him. So for balance sake it was kinda necesary to give him that. And yes his thing is a power up.

As for Vegetas suicide. Nah. Its pointless in a game where you respawn a few seconds after death. Thats either an OP ability or a totally useless one.

In the show it had its merit, since Vegeta was dead and done with once he used it. No respawns and such, but the game is a tad different.
 
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Actually, I was under the impression that the only thing Babidi did is unleash Vegeta's emotions ( the rage, hatred , etc ), no physical power up. He just "unleashed" the power he already had.

I do consider USSJ a transformation because they're hair get spikier when they do it (not to mention the body bulk).
 
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Actually, I was under the impression that the only thing Babidi did is unleash Vegeta's emotions ( the rage, hatred , etc ), no physical power up. He just "unleashed" the power he already had.
In that case, all the Super Sayian forms fall into the same category because SSJ1 is released from the inside when overcome with strong emotions like hopelessness/xtreme anger/etc., Super Sayian 2 is also brought up from the inside once the body reaches a higher level that allows for it to be sustained, and SSJ3 is also an even deeper inner power that is unleashed from its dormant state (you can see this from Goku's first SSJ3 transformation when the camera pans into his eye and effectively IN him). Same with Gohan's release of his hidden power by Guru....
 
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