The 7,497th Annual ESF Tournament

[nsw316]

jesus watching lefties playing is weird..
you think you're so cool cuz you use the other side of the keyboard... I'll have you know that w a s d e are all worn out on my laptop from this game

 

[Shadi]

Disallowing scripts was just meh in the first place. Scripting is globally accepted on ESF and it's not considered "cheating or hacking" as you simply create aliases to do stuff for you, like in CS and buy configs. It's not a programme interfering or changing values.

I do not script myself because I wanna play the game it's meant to be, only thing I have different is teleport on mousescroll. Although I thought Revan didn't script... I do see why some people discourage scripts and I never respect a player as much once I find out he scripts but to disallow it..

 

[Zeonix]

Scripting was never allowed on the US side, because it gives an unfair advantage in a game that relies heavily on movement. The difference between double tapping and single tapping is tremendous, as is having movement keys or your charge key activate turbo. You're removing one or two steps from the process, literally giving yourself a tactical advantage. Scripting has always been a Euro problem, and I guess now that the only people who play the game script, it isn't viewed as such. With the arrival of 1.3, however, know that the movers and shakers of the community will be returning, and order will be restored.

 

[Shadi]

Scripting was never allowed on the US side, because it gives an unfair advantage in a game that relies heavily on movement. The difference between double tapping and single tapping is tremendous, as is having movement keys or your charge key activate turbo. You're removing one or two steps from the process, literally giving yourself a tactical advantage. Scripting has always been a Euro problem, and I guess now that the only people who play the game script, it isn't viewed as such. With the arrival of 1.3, however, know that the movers and shakers of the community will be returning, and order will be restored.

I beg to differ, already reading the first line that's incorrect; it's been "allowed" since 2009 at least. (When I began playing and finding the real community, as I was pretty much not playing before that, used to play ECX and stuff once a month or so)

While it relies heavily on movement scripting also leads to a lot of jamming, and not always being able to properly control everything and often swoop when they don't want to; despite experience. People think it only brings advantage, if I was to go script now I'd play worlds worse than without and it'd prolly take me a long time to be able to play normally with scripts and with no guarantee of improving. You still have to be really good in order to use the scripts well which is a kind of reward.

And yeah it's true it's much more apparent in EU and not that many in US and because less do in it US it's also harder to come out and admit if you do so. I'm a pretty good chain swooper and can do AA WW/DD WW or even SS DD WW in a second and it's really not that much faster with scripts.

 

[sub]

I don't think it was ever allowed, certainly not in America. This should be obvious because no one wants to admit to scripting, everyone claims to not do it. In either case, this was never really a problem in America. I think Europe took the game a lot more seriously, and had problems like this as a result.

As for you being worse if you were to switch to scripting, well of course. You need to get used to it first. Once you do, though, you have a clear advantage over someone who doesn't script. It can't be compared to the buy script in CS because buying weapons is a miniscule part of CS, and swooping is a core function of ESF. Scripting is total bullshit, and anyone who does it deserves no respect.

 

[Shadi]

I don't think it was ever allowed, certainly not in America. This should be obvious because no one wants to admit to scripting, everyone claims to not do it. In either case, this was never really a problem in America. I think Europe took the game a lot more seriously, and had problems like this as a result.

As for you being worse if you were to switch to scripting, well of course. You need to get used to it first. Once you do, though, you have a clear advantage over someone who doesn't script. It can't be compared to the buy script in CS because buying weapons is a miniscule part of CS, and swooping is a core function of ESF. Scripting is total bullshit, and anyone who does it deserves no respect.

It was allowed and no server owner since 2009 disallowed it, especially not now that I own the servers the past 1-2 years. (They wouldn't get kicked or banned for it, at some point Triple X did it for a little while on my servers but I pretty much told him to take the kicking effect off, so it was used to detect but after a while it got annoying for spamming ur console so it was completely removed)
Thing is HL1 allows it, it's not something you can be vac banned for and thus not considered cheating. It's "lame" but to go so far as to flame and disallow it is over the border imo.

 

[Grega]

As far as i recall there are AMXX pluggins that totally dissable the alias commands.

But yea i dont mind scripters, but i do get pised off when they start going on about how good they are.

In any case the final should fix the scripting issue once and for all. The turbo powerup script will only cause you to not power up but start charging turbo instead, and the doubletap thing is history anyhow.

And since turbo no longer deactivates when powering up the direction + turbo thing is also useless, since more than not itll just switch it off for you instead of turning it on. Not to mention there is still the charge turbo thing.

 

[Damaera]

By "double tapping is history" do you mean you no longer need to double tap to chain-swoop, or you no longer need to double tap to swoop? I remember there being a single button to swoop that was added, but double tapping was still in the game.

 

[Shadi]

Hold shift and choose your direction, no more double tapping idd.

 

[Eon]

Thing is HL1 allows it, it's not something you can be vac banned for and thus not considered cheating. It's "lame" but to go so far as to flame and disallow it is over the border imo.

HL1 allows me to crash servers so I guess that's cool too.

 

[nsw316]

My opinion in scripting is the same as Hyb's.
It was frowned upon in the US when we were playing, however exploits were too. People used them in pubs but not for another player they had respect for.
And honestly... who are you going to kick/ban? The 5-8 players that offer a challenge? I kicked/banned more than enough ppl to kill any interest ppl had playing the game in US, but when the population dies down as does the talent then you have to make sacrifices on who you should play with... What I'm trying to say is: Trex is okay with scripting, and it may be frowned upon but when you only have 8 players playing do you need to kick people off of a dying game? I think, (and of course this is speculation) trex wants to regrow the population and if that is allowing some ppl to script then so be it. Some players are better than no players.

 

[Shadi]

HL1 allows me to crash servers so I guess that's cool too.

Doesn't allow, that's exploiting.

Alias is something they added intentionally.

 

[Grega]

Doesn't allow, that's exploiting.

Alias is something they added intentionally.

Yea but its something Valve added, not the ESF devs. You should remember that the only reason there is a teleport delay in ESF, is because the team wanted to stop the teleport scripts from 1.1

 

[Reading Rainbow]

I wouldn't script against another player because I wouldn't want to be scripted on. As far as I'm concerned it takes away from the skill involved with the game by simplifying functions - this causes an advantage for the scripter before the game even starts. I think ESF 1.2.3 is an amazing game that is one of the harder games to learn and master. Scripting detracts from the player experience by allowing shortcuts and I would think that in a duel you would want to strive to make it as even as possible. I'm pretty black and white when it comes to cheating, even if there were 10 people left in the entire community and if I knew half of them were scripting I would ban half the community from my server.

The best players that I know of, and as far as I know do not script are: Okazaki, Trex, Sub, Twigsnapper annnnddddd thats it lol

 

[Zeonix]

It was allowed and no server owner since 2009 disallowed it, especially not now that I own the servers the past 1-2 years. (They wouldn't get kicked or banned for it, at some point Triple X did it for a little while on my servers but I pretty much told him to take the kicking effect off, so it was used to detect but after a while it got annoying for spamming ur console so it was completely removed)
Thing is HL1 allows it, it's not something you can be vac banned for and thus not considered cheating. It's "lame" but to go so far as to flame and disallow it is over the border imo.

As I previously stated, because scripters make up a hefty portion of the population (where the population is like 20 people; big whoop), it isn't an issue. But if there were a resurgence in the community before 1.3 came out, and certainly after, scripting would again no longer be allowed on the US side. Why? Because while you owning 1 or 2 servers is great when almost no one plays the game, thus giving you a monopoly on the enforcement of rules, an influx of older players would undoubtedly set the standards for all future matches and would probably own most of the servers, as well. I think you'll find most of the older players dislike the idea of giving themselves the kind of advantage found in scripting.

I'm not sure what stating VAC won't ban you for scripting has to do with anything, as HL and ESF are completely different games with completely different game play mechanics, and thus completely different rule set.

What scripting boils down to is a difference in player philosophy. On the one hand, you have people willing to win by any means necessary. It doesn't matter how you win, so long as you do. On the other, you have people who want to win with a sense of honor and fair play intact. This is why the US side created rules to prevent the use of exploits, and why you can't just juggle someone against the ceiling until they're dead. The US servers embodied the latter philosophy, while the EU servers embodied the former. As Hyb, said, its because EU players tend to be, I guess, more competitive. Not exactly my thoughts on the matter, but its probably best to keep how I really feel to myself.

You mention the initial difficulty in scripting. Hyb covered that. By changing the way you do anything, you're forced to adapt to something new. In other words, you're learning to walk again. But because you've previously learned to run, the progression is easier and faster this time around. Whatever initial downsides there are to scripting are alleviated with time and experience. I know this first-hand, because when Jinx decided to find every which way to cheat in the game, I made sure I learned what he had to offer and tried it for myself to make it easier to detect it in others, preventing false accusations in the future. When 1.2 first came out, aimbot was a factor. I remember suspecting, but never really knowing if people were using it. Eventually, I convinced evilchimp to give it to me, and I learned what to look for in others via spectating. These were big enough issues to me that I devoted time to learning all that I could about them, and how to detect and mitigate them.

These were huge issues in the past. Because it was viewed as cheating. The team went so far as to try to cripple teleportation, because the team viewed it as a threat to their system. Now, the few guys who still play, most of whom script, may not view it as an issue, but that's because they play the game in an echo chamber. ESF is no longer competitive. It's a circle jerk.

All of that said, I really don't care. The ingame community died long ago, as did the forum community. The few people still around refuse to acknowledge that, and look to brighter horizons, but nothing short of a new release is going to reverse what happened, and even then, unless proper measures are kept to retain players, its bound to happen all over again.

 

[Grega]

To be fair to the EU side. We had those rules in the past. But once the old guard no longer hosted servers, and the new guard took their place, those rules disappeared. We had the exact same rule set as the US at one time. That was when clans like Ocrana and H.H were the ones hosting servers, along with our S2k servers. But ill be honest here. Not all exploits are bad for competitive gameplay.

The 4 most notable being "attack-lame", "block-lame", "advanced speed" and "roll-hitting". They are all preventable.

You can prevent "attack-lame", by using "block-lame" and vice versa provided you expect it and time it correctly. Alternatively you can also use teleport.
"Advanced speed" is basically a free initial advanced melee hit, that can be blocked if you react in time.
"Roll-hitting" can be broken by using the "roll stop". The only issue is that you are still prone to a barrage of turbo charged generic beam damage. Which is also a cheap trick in the US rules BTW.

But provided that those exploits are known as they were in the beginning of 1.2.3 days in europe, everyone is using it, and it adds 1 extra level of skill. Mastering them and their counters.

Thats my rant as a player. As a dev team member id probably just say exploits that were not foreseen and should not be used.

In any case those exploits and scripts that i am aware of, should be gone from the final due to one mechanic or another. In example with teleport being unnerfed, you are free to use the teleport script again, but in doing so you will empty your stamina pool, leaving you unable to teleport or swoop for a while, making you a sitting duck.

No advanced melee means no attack/block lame or advanced speed, and the instant recovery/sliding should nullify rollhitting/ceiling hitting.

 

[Zeonix]

As far as generic beams are concerned, as hitting a person on the ground more than once isn't allowed (2 air, 1 ground/wall/ceiling), you're really only susceptible to ki blasts or a single gen beam/ball. It isn't an exploit, it isn't something extra that you have do in order to perform that act. What it is is an oversight by the team as far as recovery is concerned, both after being hit by melee and making contact with a surface.

 

[Shadi]

A detected .exe file or thing that interferes with values or variables will get you vac banned is what I meant, an alias doesn't do that.

Yes, it takes a while to get used to but even when you get used to it, it makes you jam and do mistakes; even removes your ability to do stuff and react to normal swoops. Yeah sure it makes you jam for a while. I have yet to see a real elite player with scripts (I dno with Kai, he claims to not have scripted in his prime but doing so now, and he's pretty good).

I have seen people remove their scripts and play for long and put them on and play for long, it's pretty equal from what I have witnessed. Only changes their style..

 

[Zeonix]

In other words, its like playing without scripts, except with the added bonus of single-tap swooping and linked turbo. People make mistakes regardless. If it was bad enough, people simply wouldn't script. Revan still does, however, so he must be coping just fine.

 

[Grega]

Zeo you may not remember but the 1 hit on the ground to give the guy a roll, turbo charge a genbeam and jump away before he can recover is nearly as deadly as hitting him 3 times on the ground.

And im not saying it isnt an oversight, but that should be fixed with 2 things:
1.) Instant recovery that costs stamina
2.) No more splash damage on beam jump