Suggestion for explodiing beams prematurely.

[RobiZ]

I didn't just say "It's Cool"... I said it'll never be released because, sorry to say but for 1. All of you fans voted on a poll that you DIDN'T WANT THE TEAM TO RELEASE ESF:Final IN TWO PACKAGES!!! MEANING WE HAVE TO SIT HERE UNTIL THE ENTIRE THING IS COMPLETED BEFORE WE CAN EVEN TEST IT!!! Now, who in their sane mind sees a game that's been in development for consecutive years and doesn't even yearn to TEST it???? It would have been way better than 1.2.3!!! That to me has me thinking that all the fans here are in love with the IDEA of this game more so than actually playing it.

Well it doesn't mean it will not release. Plus there was a post long long ago where developers said that it will be at least close to finishing the game in end of 2013 or in 2014. So waiting another year is not that long. At least there is a hope that it will release next year. Nothing guaranteed ,but at least hope

 

[Zeonix]

Ok, cmon now. For one, this thread it two years old. And two, this has been suggested by every regular forum-goer we have still around. It's always met with "why bother when you can teleport away in the same amount of time?"

Why, seriously, -why- in gods name would you sit around and wait for a beam to hit you? A block struggle should be an "oh shit" thing that you get into at the last second. After all, getting hit directly does more damage than the splash, so the beam user will WANT to hit you for more damage. The reason you should be able to detonate is for when and if you realize someone is gonna block it and you still want to do some damage rather than take the chance you'll be drained entirely of energy and be hit with your own attack/splash.

In conclusion, it's not cheap and you shouldn't be standing around waiting to initiate a block struggle. You ARE going to die.

I don't mind block mitigating some of the damage sustained by detonations. Granted, whoever compared to trying to block a grenade with your arms is insane, but its dbz, so who cares? As someone who knows a thing or two about the game, there have been plenty of times where I've been in a fight, had someone fire a beam at the two of us and, noticing this, tried to drift away while blocking toward the explosion only to have it end terribly for both fighters. There are times when you can teleport away, and there are times when you can't. Either, mitigation through blocking doesn't hurt the game, and simply adds another layer of protection from the inevitable spammer with no manners.

@Grega: I know you guys focused on gen beams because gen beams are the devil and 50 hits against the walls and roof are alright, but are ki blasts being touched at all? I ask as those are a major source of damage during a gentleman's duel (a source of damage I do not mind, provided the game allows the player to recover in time and avoid it). Speaking of which, one of my biggest gripes in 1.2 is the recovery time, which holding left click is supposed to help hasten, but in my experience operates slightly more effectively than the close doors button on elevators.

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[DaRkOwNs]

It doesn't matter, and it's only annoying and unattractive to you. No one else in the forum has ever had a problem simply moving away from an incoming projectile. If you hadn't noticed, we can't be accurate to DBZ because that would mean Buu and Goku destroys everything.

I don't mind a disconnect at all as a mechanic, but there's a specific reason we have the controlled detonation. And this isn't really a fighting game in the same way the budokai games are. It's major strengths are it's ability to let you act immediately. The detonation is a cancel button so you can get out of an attack and defend from an incoming enemy. And, as I said, it's also an option for when you're good enough to notice someones about to block your attack and you don't have any energy. It does next to nothing in terms of damage compared to being hit head on.

 

[Zeonix]

It isn't true that detonating beams does next to nothing versus getting hit head on. It does a fraction of the damage, but its still enough to be quite significant. I can probably count the number of times I've killed someone with a direct hit using beams. Number of times I've won using detonations? Probably the population of Australia.

 

[DaRkOwNs]

That's probably true to numbers, but that usually comes down to hitting with splash damage is easier to hit people with so you try to detonate near them rather than hit head on more often than not. I also agree about the recovery mechanics. It very rarely seems like holding a mouse button is all that significant.

Still though, we've also discussed the disconnect over detonation and I'm entirely cool with that but it should be applied to certain beams only. Gen beams should still be detonatable. Final Flash definitely needs to be detonatable so you can't just fling one across a map and immediately start on your second. I would like SBC to be connected to piccolo, uncontrollable, and being able to struggle actively with it. Other than those gripes, I don't care one way or another AS LONG AS we don't lose our emergency trigger and don't end up stuck in animation while someones flying at us. SBC is strong enough and fast enough that I do't believe it should be interuptable after firing.

 

[BlueSaiyan]

It doesn't matter, and it's only annoying and unattractive to you. No one else in the forum has ever had a problem simply moving away from an incoming projectile. If you hadn't noticed, we can't be accurate to DBZ because that would mean Buu and Goku destroys everything.

I don't mind a disconnect at all as a mechanic, but there's a specific reason we have the controlled detonation. And this isn't really a fighting game in the same way the budokai games are. It's major strengths are it's ability to let you act immediately. The detonation is a cancel button so you can get out of an attack and defend from an incoming enemy. And, as I said, it's also an option for when you're good enough to notice someones about to block your attack and you don't have any energy. It does next to nothing in terms of damage compared to being hit head on.

"Only unattractive to you" I hate when people post a message alone but act as if there's an army backing them on it. Don't act as if majority agrees with you.. this is YOUR opinion, so recognize that.
And with Generic beams being the PRIMARY beam which is pre-maturely detonated to gain damage by exploiting mechanics cheaply, I would say that it should definitely not be able to be detonated as it is now. At the VERY least, a detonated generic beam should not be able to lower your health past say 25... and if you block a BIG beam which is detonated, you'd be dropped down to, at max, 10 health.... Balance is needed.

 

[Reading Rainbow]

quotes from the new Aurum:

"Well, I'm here to burst your bubble. It won't happen. Keep on waiting...... I'll be playing other games, because unfortunately, ESF will never be playable to the public."

"Shoo troll, don't boooooooother me ;-) Like I said in that thread, we're here to discuss the DREAM that is a great DBZ online game for the PC."

"You're all here just to entertain a fantasy. To fantasize about an awesome DBZ game that you can play online from your PC."

"Balance is needed."

"I said it'll never be released"

"I hate when people post a message alone but act as if there's an army backing them on it."



quoting myself now:

"when I shoot a beam at bluesaiyan, while you're blocking, I detonate it prematurely and not only does it do damage to you but it sends you and your girly yoyo attitude back to 2010 where you stay there in an endless loop."

 

[Zeonix]

That's probably true to numbers, but that usually comes down to hitting with splash damage is easier to hit people with so you try to detonate near them rather than hit head on more often than not. I also agree about the recovery mechanics. It very rarely seems like holding a mouse button is all that significant.

Still though, we've also discussed the disconnect over detonation and I'm entirely cool with that but it should be applied to certain beams only. Gen beams should still be detonatable. Final Flash definitely needs to be detonatable so you can't just fling one across a map and immediately start on your second. I would like SBC to be connected to piccolo, uncontrollable, and being able to struggle actively with it. Other than those gripes, I don't care one way or another AS LONG AS we don't lose our emergency trigger and don't end up stuck in animation while someones flying at us. SBC is strong enough and fast enough that I do't believe it should be interuptable after firing.

I wasn't arguing against detonation. I was arguing for mitigating some of the damage caused by explosions when you block.

 

[DaRkOwNs]

This suggestion isn't the first time it's been suggested that blocking reduce beam damage. So yes, I do know the vast majority agree with me on that. Or at least, the vast majority of 5 - 7 years ago. My posts aren't just me making shit up, i'm telling you all the shit that was told to me when I MYSELF posted this exact suggestion 4 years ago.

And the game is already pretty well balanced. True, there are some character issues and some attacks need a little nerfing, but there's really nothing about combat that I would say is unbalanced. I'm still more curious why you're even putting anything into this discussion when, just a few hours ago, you were ranting about how this game will never be released and the dev team are full of liars.

and still, how is it cheap? I've been playing this game for 10 years and I've never had a problem with someone being skilled enough to follow me with a gen beam and detonate it in my face. If you're talking about someone hitting you with an attack while you're distracted or rolling, you should be paying more attention/not getting hit into the ground.

On that subject, the only problem I have with getting punished on the ground like you can do is the ridiculous damage you can take on double ground rolls. THAT definitely needs to be fixed, but being hit by energy attacks are entirely understandable.

--- edit ---

@Zeo, when it comes to the splash damage I can really give or take. But I would prefer we encourage action in game, versus defensive reaction for energy attacks. I just can't see how it'd be logical that throwing up your arms is gonna protect you from a concussion wave wrecking your innards, even in dbz.

--- edit ---

I WOULD be for all characters getting a personal shield of some sorts for energy attacks, gohans being superior. Yeah, it's been done before but I'm all for more abilities.

 

[hleV]

"why bother when you can teleport away in the same amount of time?"

You won't just teleport away if the explosion radius is big enough or if you don't have much ki/energy at that moment.

Why, seriously, -why- in gods name would you sit around and wait for a beam to hit you?

In ESF: Final now there's a chance to redirect the attack by successfully blocking it. I'm not entirely sure if it works with "beam" type attacks, but it does with "ball" type ones. In OB people even received some PL for successfully blocking an attack, suggesting that the team wants the block struggle feature to be used by players.

It's not about completely nerfing detonated attack's damage, it's about making it reasonable for when the opponent is trying to block but the attack never reaches them. Just so people wouldn't always choose detonation instead of direct hit.

 

[Zeonix]

Honestly, it just sounds like you don't want the team to change a design aspect that you use ingame. Its really not that big of a deal to lessen damage when you're blocking. That's what its there for.

 

[DaRkOwNs]

Alright, alright. Guess I really am the minority here. I just don't see why it's that big a deal to dodge it. The only attack that I've ever see have a splash damage big enough to warrant doing something other than teleporting away is the Spirit Bomb. -Maybe- Final Flash if the character is really dominating the server.

I just don't see why it's logical either. I understand it's just a game and it's just dbz, but they're not getting pelted by rocks. It's a blast wave, and as such what would even be the angle by which you can block something? Just directly in front of you? From all angles as long as you're blocking? For something like this I would think an energy draining concussion shield would be better rather than just straight block. Just hold Q and then E.

 

[Zeonix]

How many times in the show was there a giant explosion, followed by someone crouched in the air with their arms crossed, attempting to block the blast? There are precedents set by the show. If you can physically hold onto a beam of energy, there's no reason not to be able to block some of it, too. How would you block it? Imagine an explosion. Assuming you're facing the source of the explosion, approximate the center with your reticle. You are now mitigating damage caused by the explosion. If your back is to the explosion, and you're holding block, you're an idiot and you're going to take full damage. If the explosion is directly to your side, you're going to take full damage? 3/4 angle? I'd count it as a block as it'd generally be considered a glancing blow.

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[DaRkOwNs]

I...don't know? I don't personally remember that, i've only read the manga a couple times in the last 10 years. Haven't seen the show in longer than that. Can't remember an instance where it happened. Link a video or something.

Still, I just really don't like the idea. I can't think of a single situation where it would've been a better idea to stop and block rather than teleport away and attack my attacker. In nearly every situation I can think of, you either can't stop any damage, simply because you don't have time to respond, or can beamjump/fly/teleport away with seconds before you're hit by it. Which is where the disconnect would come in, rather than the detonation keeping things balanced. The only time I could think of that being useful is this one instance where I turned around and there was a big ass spirit bomb barreling onto me. Of course, when I blocked it I was out of energy and died.

And actually, despite what I said about it not making sense, I think I would prefer it if blocking didn't initiate struggles but swooping into an oncoming attack did. I could see that situation, gliding and blocking INTO an incoming beam so I can take partial damage and get even closer to an opponent, as possibly speeding up gameplay. which is the only thing I really care about.

 

[Zeonix]

Link a video or something.

Still, I just really don't like the idea. I can't think of a single situation where it would've been a better idea to stop and block rather than teleport away and attack my attacker. In nearly every situation I can think of, you either can't stop any damage, simply because you don't have time to respond, or can beamjump/fly/teleport away with seconds before you're hit by it. Which is where the disconnect would come in, rather than the detonation keeping things balanced. The only time I could think of that being useful is this one instance where I turned around and there was a big ass spirit bomb barreling onto me. Of course, when I blocked it I was out of energy and died.

And actually, despite what I said about it not making sense, I think I would prefer it if blocking didn't initiate struggles but swooping into an oncoming attack did. I could see that situation, gliding and blocking INTO an incoming beam so I can take partial damage and get even closer to an opponent, as possibly speeding up gameplay. which is the only thing I really care about.

20 minutes of searching for the grand pay off of you saying, "Oh. Alright."? No thanks.

You answered your own question. I'm perpetually low on ki. I play this way on purpose, as I actually am on the offensive at all times, whereas people will disengage, power up, and then reengage. While you're attempting to power up, I'm coming from a random direction and getting in that extra hit. They add up. So when a random kamehameha, or any beam larger than a gen beam (and even that when your pl gets high enough) suddenly finds its way to my balls, I find that being able to mitigate some of the damage would come in pretty handy. So no, teleporting away isn't always feasible, and some people do react fast enough to press block before a beam detonates.

You have the mentality of we either have a, or we have b. We can't have both or a combination of both. It's one or the other. It's a false dichotomy. Block, as it is, is borderline useless. Some of the time you can block a melee it, but a skilled player will just teleport and strike from a different angle the second time. Stop trying to get rid of block altogether. There's no reason why block can't coexist with a system where charging turbo and swoop or charging your swoop would result with a third kind of struggle where if the person firing the beam loses, you get knocked away at 1.1 speeds. The animation would be similar to Superman essentially ramming his fist through any kind of beam/laser ever, and would look spectacular while also serving a purpose.

 

[DaRkOwNs]

I'm not trying to get rid of block at all, I actually seem to find blocking much more useful in melee than you do. I just believe the idea of blocking an explosion is retarded, and I play similarly to you. Usually dropping down 10% ki to disengage and recharge when I'm finally running out of options to extend my ki usage. But I played alot of deathmatches over simple duels and I learned pretty ******* quickly that you save a little ki to get away from the big ass beam running up your ass. I also learned to keep an eye around me so I can see those beams and blasts coming.

but even considering that, this thread is mainly about that dude complaining about not being able to block gen beam damage. Maybe they're different in Final, but gen beams are quick enough to get around any block, especially if you're already expecting it. And most people do, which is why they tend to do that spiral move when they shoot it. I'd imagine if you were to fire a Kamehameha, you could just fire past the person and detonate behind them and it'd be pretty much a 50/50 chance that you are able to spin around and block it in time.

Yes, I do tend to admit when I'm wrong or at least voted against. But I still like to add to the discussion. and, in case you missed it, I died in that little situation. All I was saying is it -might- have helped, but I seriously doubt it. Still, the point I'd like to make known is that I'm no longer against it but I don't like the execution. I still don't understand why it would block an explosion, maybe? I remember characters blocking incoming blasts and such by curling up, but I would assuming they're guardian from the impact of the attack itself and not an explosion.

 

[Nebulisreconx]

Ok, cmon now. For one, this thread it two years old. And two, this has been suggested by every regular forum-goer we have still around. It's always met with "why bother when you can teleport away in the same amount of time?"

Why, seriously, -why- in gods name would you sit around and wait for a beam to hit you? A block struggle should be an "oh shit" thing that you get into at the last second. After all, getting hit directly does more damage than the splash, so the beam user will WANT to hit you for more damage. The reason you should be able to detonate is for when and if you realize someone is gonna block it and you still want to do some damage rather than take the chance you'll be drained entirely of energy and be hit with your own attack/splash.

In conclusion, it's not cheap and you shouldn't be standing around waiting to initiate a block struggle. You ARE going to die.

You know what. Sometimes I like to block a beam attack and launch it back. SOMETIMES I think it's cooler to do than just dodge or evade. Tell me sir, why would there be a feature to even block beam attacks if it's not ment to be used? WHy block melee attacks when it's faster to dodge?

I'll tell you. Change of pace, and it provides alternate opportunities.

ALSO: I'm with Grega I too think it would be better to have a beam detach, than be able to trigger detonation without impact I don't even know why that feature was ever in ESF, I don't ever recall them doing something like that in the manga, or even the series.. it's stupid. If they didn't want to hit something they would curve the beam last minute.

HOWEVER; DaRkOwNs you do make a good point. Not all attacks possess the versatility(rather the people using them) to have such a feature.

And In terms of the special beam cannon.. wasn't the whole point of developing that technique to make it a very quick, straight shot? One that the creator had no use or need to maintain after the force was released? There is no pumping more ki into it like with other attacks.

--- edit ---

Stop trying to get rid of block altogether. There's no reason why block can't coexist with a system where charging turbo and swoop or charging your swoop would result with a third kind of struggle where if the person firing the beam loses, you get knocked away at 1.1 speeds. The animation would be similar to Superman essentially ramming his fist through any kind of beam/laser ever, and would look spectacular while also serving a purpose.

OMG OMG! THIS SHI* RIGHT HERE!!!! ESF TEAM! TEAAAAAM! WE NEED THIS!!! BEST SUGGESTION EVER MADE!!!

--- edit ---

I...don't know? I don't personally remember that, i've only read the manga a couple times in the last 10 years. Haven't seen the show in longer than that. Can't remember an instance where it happened. Link a video or something.

Still, I just really don't like the idea. I can't think of a single situation where it would've been a better idea to stop and block rather than teleport away and attack my attacker. In nearly every situation I can think of, you either can't stop any damage, simply because you don't have time to respond, or can beamjump/fly/teleport away with seconds before you're hit by it. Which is where the disconnect would come in, rather than the detonation keeping things balanced. The only time I could think of that being useful is this one instance where I turned around and there was a big ass spirit bomb barreling onto me. Of course, when I blocked it I was out of energy and died.

And actually, despite what I said about it not making sense, I think I would prefer it if blocking didn't initiate struggles but swooping into an oncoming attack did. I could see that situation, gliding and blocking INTO an incoming beam so I can take partial damage and get even closer to an opponent, as possibly speeding up gameplay. which is the only thing I really care about.

I think the whole point of blocking in the series was just to create drama, OR to intimidate the opposition and prove they could easily thwart the attack with a swift backhand. Really the notion remains amazingly cool and empowering. Deflecting such a massive force when.. YOU DON"T HAVE TOO.

See, the problem with beams and blocking in the game is that.. frankly, beams are not as dangerous as they are in the series. In quite a few cases it boiled down to ::Well shit if I don't try to block this then the planet is gonna blow up:: Some energy attacks should have massive splash damage, and encourage players who know they cannot escape it to consider deflecting, and redirecting that damage. Sure it doesn't make as much sense as just getting out of there, but remember this is DBZ we are talking about. Lets do it the DBZ way.

 

[BlueSaiyan]

You won't just teleport away if the explosion radius is big enough or if you don't have much ki/energy at that moment.


In ESF: Final now there's a chance to redirect the attack by successfully blocking it. I'm not entirely sure if it works with "beam" type attacks, but it does with "ball" type ones. In OB people even received some PL for successfully blocking an attack, suggesting that the team wants the block struggle feature to be used by players.

It's not about completely nerfing detonated attack's damage, it's about making it reasonable for when the opponent is trying to block but the attack never reaches them. Just so people wouldn't always choose detonation instead of direct hit.

Thank you! I agree most with the last thing you said... we want there to be incentive for people to do things other than explode the beam infront of your face 100% of the time! Literally there is NO reason for anyone NOT to explode the beam in front of your face as it is now, and it's simply annoying and not fun.

As for DarkOwnz, why are you asking me why I'm posting here? I already told you, we're here to discuss the DREAM of this game... I never back-peddled and said that I had faith in it being released, no... But we can still enjoy fantasizing about it and trying to conceptualize the perfect DBZ game, which is why we're all here... So, consider that troll-attempt of yours to be block-struggled and tossed away to the side ;-)

 

[DaRkOwNs]

I told you that you shouldn't be posting here because this is a 3 year old thread, not because of your suggestion. And I did so because you had just an hour prior to this thread, revived another 3 year old thread. And I also told you that this has been suggested multiple times to pretty negative responses in the past. Not to mention you just today created a slam thread regarding the game and the team. Suggest whatever you want, talk about this dream of yours but not only is against the rules to revive threads, it's worse to revive them with a *bump*.

Hence, my first post about the banning fast track. I still don't like the idea, tbh, but it really doesn't matter that much. I'm just annoyed that this particular resurrection went unnoticed after the recent annoying posts by you.

 

[Nebulisreconx]

Well it has sparked a light on some decent conversation ground so.. Resurrection is validated I think, at least in this case.