ScrewAttack: Goku vs Superman

[Almighty_Gir]

if we're counting all movies, then superman can move fast enough that time goes backwards.

good luck with that, goku.

 

[macdaddymario]

It was counting DBZ movies. Not the Sups ones. Even still, his flying around the Earth in that way was more or less a straight line.. good luck with getting the chance to do something like that in a fight.

 

[Renyori]

I'm 11 pages in to this now, and I just need to mention 2 things I haven't seen yet.. they said they were taking into account movies as well. Goku used IT as movement speed against Meta Cooler. First to move out of the way of his 'Super Nova' attack.. then to counter Cooler as he was also using IT as movement speed.

I don't think movies should be able to retcon how a technique works. Canon should overrule non Canon. Instant Transmission should work how Akira Toriyama designed it to work. Anyway, in the movie he was still using his movement speed like 90% of the time atleast.

On the note of the 40 tons weights things.. he was in other world. King Kai's planet was 5x Earth's gravity.. so we MUST assume that it was the same at the least for the Grand Kai's planet, in fact I seem to recall it being said that it was actually 10x Earth's gravity there. This I could be wrong on and I would like someone to correct me if I am wrong, but that would mean it was more along the lines of 400 tons that ssj Goku has 0 problems moving at his training speed in. We don't know if it was his maximum speed so we can NOT argue that it was, we can only assume that he could have been moving even faster showing that he is much stronger then we know at that point.

"I will concede, but once again: "It doesn't matter if an Ant can lift 10 milligrams or 100,000 milligrams, it's still absolutely nothing compared to a Human who can lift 100 kilograms.""


"Okay well, base Goku struggled to lift 40 tons in the otherworld. Let's be generous and say because of the gravity and everything, it was multiplied by 1000x. So lets say base Goku struggles with 40,000 tons. Then let's be extremely generous this time and say with the Super Saiyan buffs, it multiplies by 10,000x . So now he lifts 400 million tons. That's still nothing compared to Superman, who actually just recently lifted 5.972 sextillion metric tons for 5 days straight."

It was counting DBZ movies. Not the Sups ones. Even still, his flying around the Earth in that way was more or less a straight line.. good luck with getting the chance to do something like that in a fight.

Supes only flies in more or less a straight line? Where did you hear that from? Supes basically sees everything in slow motion.

There is no way he could've straight lined to another country, get some champagne fly back inside and prepare everything before Louis Lane could even finish her sentence. He's had a race on feet vs Flash around the planet. If they did these things while going "more or less a straight line" they would've destroyed a shit ton of crap.

 

[macdaddymario]

Be it retcon or not, that is the basis for the vs match on the forum page, that DBZ/GT and the movies are all counted so in the debate, it must be taken into account. The straight line thing wasn't to you, it was to gir when he referenced Sups flying around the world to turn back time in Superman 2. It was shown with slight alterations in flight patters, to make it look visually nice for the audience, but overall was him flying in a straight line to generate the speed to spin the globe in reverse and thus time travel as he did.

 

[Zeonix]

Be it retcon or not, that is the basis for the vs match on the forum page, that DBZ/GT and the movies are all counted so in the debate, it must be taken into account. The straight line thing wasn't to you, it was to gir when he referenced Sups flying around the world to turn back time in Superman 2. It was shown with slight alterations in flight patters, to make it look visually nice for the audience, but overall was him flying in a straight line to generate the speed to spin the globe in reverse and thus time travel as he did.

I don't think the gravity of the concept that a man can fly so fast so as to reverse time is impressing itself upon you.

 

[macdaddymario]

I don't think the gravity of the concept that a man can fly so fast so as to reverse time is impressing itself upon you.

I don't think you understand my counter argument to the fact at all. He needs to fly in a straight line, to generate the speed in order to do this.. what in the world makes you think that in a fight, Goku would allow the time for this to happen? Even if he got around the world twice before Goku put himself in Sups path.. it's a skill that simply would have 0 effect in a battle between the two.

 

[Zeonix]

You don't understand what I'm inferring. If an entity can move in such a way as to reverse time, which should be altogether impossible, especially by said means, then to think that any other kind of movement of his could be matched is ludicrous. It isn't a skill. It's a capability. A capability that gives one an inkling of just how much power this person can generate if he would only apply himself. Ren has already listed his achievements and accolades. You're comparing a man to a God, as that is precisely what Superman is.

 

[IFlip92]

"Faster than a speeding bullet" doesn't mean much to Superman as well, since a speeding bullet is basically not moving at all to Superman.

There is no evidence that a DBZ character can move FTL. I highly doubt a DB character can lap the circumference of the Earth 7.5 times in a single second.

I believe Gotenks lapped the Earth but I don't quite remember how fast he did it.. Found some info on that:

To date, the best speed feat in the DBZ manga is Gotenks circling the world a few times in 20+ minutes.

Piccolo was able to fire a beam to the moon and destroy it in about a second and a half when Gohan had transformed into an ape. I don't know the math, but I assume that's a pretty significant amount of speed on that shot. Raditz was able to dodge something like this, so a better explanation than "dub fabrication" is needed to debunk that fully. Still, it may not be close to light speed at all...

As for Gotenks, he took a nap in that amount time as well. In the anime, it took him about 6 seconds to circle the world 9 times, and he took a nap afterwards.

0. Gotenks really wasn't trying

1. That was SS1 Gotenks.

2. Mystic Gohan is faster than SS3 Gotenks.

3. Super Buu is faster than Gohan after absorbing Gotenks and what-not.

4. Vegito is faster than Super Buu.

5. Super Vegito is faster than regular Vegito.

In DB, Master Roshi is regarded as faster than sound...This is MASTER ROSHI we are talking about here people!

The Moon is 405,503 KMs MAX distance away so about 1 sec of FTL travel. The Earth is 40,075 KMs in circumference... Of course this all doesn't mean much since we all know Gotenks and he was just a goofball that almost never went all out and he was also only in SSJ1... Some calculations made by people where I got that info put his feat at over a quarter (1/4) of the speed of light. I think its rather safe to assume SSJ3 Gotenks could FTL and SSJ4 Goku as well.
(Source: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-527409-lightspeed-in-the-dbzverse.html)

Then that means he just ran away from the battle.
It's not really fair to have the battle take place where only one of the characters power works.

So is it fair to have a buff then? If so, then Goku should place a fake moon up there next to the sun and see what happens.

Also, a fact that noone has mentioned here as far as I've been reading is, that a Sayian grows indefinitely in Power level as he fights and the more powerful his opponent the more excited they get and the more powerful they get quicker. Goku is quite a smart fighter remember and I think that if he had to, then Goku might have to pull a d*ck Ginyu move like harm himself close to death then take a Senzu bean while he is in SSJ4.

Also, after SSJ3 Goku stopped using Spirit Bomb I think because it was way too powerful of an Area of Effect (AoE) attack. In SSJ4 a Spirit Bomb may be able to decimate more than we can imagine. This is all just speculation though. I am only arguing for Goku as I am not that informed on Supes. I just think people aren't taking all angles in consideration.

PS: I wonder if Gogeta is still classed as being Goku?...

Edit: I found more info on the speed subject but it seems inconsistent. The spaceships are 300 times faster than light and King Kai could talk to people while travelling. If King Kai can't sense Goku's movement, then Goku's battle speed is much faster than that? Also Burter was regarded as being able to travel FTL apparently but that's clearly bogus, as Frieza was faster than him....

Also, this:

Don't you think it is gay when someone writes a comic where Supes is killed by Batman, even though you know Bats could never harm Supes? It is that kind of garbage that I hate. But, since it has the "stamp of approval" on it, its canon.

It was that kind of scenario which caused me to be so disgusted with the "canon laws" that everybody uses.

 

[Grega]

I believe Gotenks lapped the Earth but I don't quite remember how fast he did it.. Found some info on that:



The Moon is 405,503 KMs MAX distance away so about 1 sec of FTL travel. The Earth is 40,075 KMs in circumference... Of course this all doesn't mean much since we all know Gotenks and he was just a goofball that almost never went all out and he was also only in SSJ1...



So is it fair to have a buff then? If so, then Goku should place a fake moon up there next to the sun and see what happens.

Also, a fact that noone has mentioned here as far as I've been reading is, that a Sayian grows indefinitely in Power level as he fights and the more powerful his opponent the more excited they get and the more powerful they get quicker. Goku is quite a smart fighter remember and I think that if he had to, then Goku might have to pull a d*ck Ginyu move like harm himself close to death then take a Senzu bean while he is in SSJ4.

Also, after SSJ3 Goku stopped using Spirit Bomb I think because it was way too powerful of an Area of Effect (AoE) attack. In SSJ4 a Spirit Bomb may be able to decimate more than we can imagine. This is all just speculation though. I am only arguing for Goku as I am not that informed on Supes. I just think people aren't taking all angles in consideration.

PS: I wonder if Gogeta is still classed as being Goku?...

Goku cant use the spirit bomb in any form. The SSJ state prevents its use.

 

[IFlip92]

Goku cant use the spirit bomb in any form. The SSJ state prevents its use.

But he used it in SSJ form on Buu.... ( I won't mention the movies cos I know you will disregard them).

 

[Deathshot]

But he used it in SSJ form on Buu.... ( I won't mention the movies cos I know you will disregard them).

He wasn't in control of it. He had already launched it.


This is what happens with it. In this fight that is. This is because the Super Saiyan transformation is inherently malicious and taints the heart and soul.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWY1K468tog

 

[IFlip92]

And hence the birth of the Dragon Fist.....And that makes sense that SSJ is inherently malicious....but I really hate saying this now...that is a movie and as you folks say it " it is non-canon..."

 

[hleV]

He wasn't in control of it. He had already launched it.

Goku was in control of it, just that the Genki-Dama was already "made" when he went SSJ.

 

[Eon]

There is no way he could've straight lined to another country, get some champagne fly back inside and prepare everything before Louis Lane could even finish her sentence. He's had a race on feet vs Flash around the planet. If they did these things while going "more or less a straight line" they would've destroyed a shit ton of crap.

See I'm pretty sure Supes doesn't carry cash on him so that means he stole it and is an ass.




...which makes him that much cooler. Goku doesn't steal booze, but Superman does.

 

[Zeonix]

See I'm pretty sure Supes doesn't carry cash on him so that means he stole it and is an ass.




...which makes him that much cooler. Goku doesn't steal booze, but Superman does.

http://super****ery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=28&Itemid=45

And it appears di_k is still censored. For the children.

 

[macdaddymario]

You don't understand what I'm inferring. If an entity can move in such a way as to reverse time, which should be altogether impossible, especially by said means, then to think that any other kind of movement of his could be matched is ludicrous. It isn't a skill. It's a capability. A capability that gives one an inkling of just how much power this person can generate if he would only apply himself. Ren has already listed his achievements and accolades. You're comparing a man to a God, as that is precisely what Superman is.

I understood exactly what you were trying to infer. Fact: he (Sups) can not, and does not start off at the speed needed to reverse time (why we're even arguing this fact is pointless, as the Superman movies do not fall into the mythos that is in the realm of debate by the official rules of the match up as it only happened in Superman 2, and the Superman movies are not permitted in the match up) he moved like any other object of mass, starting at a set speed and generated more the further he went. It's a skill as he did not start off at time altering speeds, thus you can not say that it is at all useful in the fight, which is the argument to begin with.

 

[Renyori]

I believe Gotenks lapped the Earth but I don't quite remember how fast he did it.. Found some info on that:



The Moon is 405,503 KMs MAX distance away so about 1 sec of FTL travel. The Earth is 40,075 KMs in circumference... Of course this all doesn't mean much since we all know Gotenks and he was just a goofball that almost never went all out and he was also only in SSJ1... Some calculations made by people where I got that info put his feat at over a quarter (1/4) of the speed of light. I think its rather safe to assume SSJ3 Gotenks could FTL and SSJ4 Goku as well.
(Source: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-527409-lightspeed-in-the-dbzverse.html)

The calculations are wrong because that scene in the anime was time lapsed anyway. In actual canon, there is no statement of how long it took him only that by the end of it all his fusion time was almost done. Theres no actual evidence that ssj3 can reach lightspeed. Remember, that's 7.5 laps around the planet in a single second.

So is it fair to have a buff then? If so, then Goku should place a fake moon up there next to the sun and see what happens.

So you want them to start somewhere out in the middle of space where no sun exists and have them fight in darkness and absolute freezing temperature? Goku would instantly freeze.

Also, a fact that noone has mentioned here as far as I've been reading is, that a Sayian grows indefinitely in Power level as he fights and the more powerful his opponent the more excited they get and the more powerful they get quicker. Goku is quite a smart fighter remember and I think that if he had to, then Goku might have to pull a d*ck Ginyu move like harm himself close to death then take a Senzu bean while he is in SSJ4.

Again, Superman just needs to land a punch and Goku is dead.

Also, after SSJ3 Goku stopped using Spirit Bomb I think because it was way too powerful of an Area of Effect (AoE) attack. In SSJ4 a Spirit Bomb may be able to decimate more than we can imagine. This is all just speculation though. I am only arguing for Goku as I am not that informed on Supes. I just think people aren't taking all angles in consideration.

Doesn't matter since Superman isn't going to wait half an hour for Goku to do it. Even if he did do it, I don't think it would harm Supes just as it wouldn't harm Goku.

Edit: I found more info on the speed subject but it seems inconsistent. The spaceships are 300 times faster than light and King Kai could talk to people while travelling. If King Kai can't sense Goku's movement, then Goku's battle speed is much faster than that? Also Burter was regarded as being able to travel FTL apparently but that's clearly bogus, as Frieza was faster than him....

Plothole. King Kai was having trouble following SSJ Goku fighting Frieza.

Also, this: Don't you think it is gay when someone writes a comic where Supes is killed by Batman, even though you know Bats could never harm Supes? It is that kind of garbage that I hate. But, since it has the "stamp of approval" on it, its canon.

It was that kind of scenario which caused me to be so disgusted with the "canon laws" that everybody uses.

Bats can't harm Supes. Nor has he ever killed the mainstream DC Supes. Maybe an alternate universe Superman that couldve been much weaker, or Batman could've been much stronger or just had a Batman-style Kryptonite Bazooka.

 

[Zeonix]

I understood exactly what you were trying to infer. Fact: he (Sups) can not, and does not start off at the speed needed to reverse time (why we're even arguing this fact is pointless, as the Superman movies do not fall into the mythos that is in the realm of debate by the official rules of the match up as it only happened in Superman 2, and the Superman movies are not permitted in the match up) he moved like any other object of mass, starting at a set speed and generated more the further he went. It's a skill as he did not start off at time altering speeds, thus you can not say that it is at all useful in the fight, which is the argument to begin with.

Clearly not. I am not arguing that his ability to time travel would make any kind of difference in the fight (other than to kill Goku multiple times). What I am arguing is Superman is capable of traveling at speeds that break down the very laws the Universe and us mere mortals abide by. If it takes 20 seconds to spin in circles fast enough to time travel, cool. And it is precisely because we are not using the movies to depict Superman that he is all the more powerful, because the movies and cartoons do nothing more than limit his abilities for the sake of theater. In the comics, he's more than capable of moving fast enough to turn anyone and anything not on his level into pink mist the instant he wants to. You're comparing Goku, a man, to Superman, The God. He is a being who is limited mostly by his imagination and good will and not much else. One can argue how much Goku could lift and try to calculate how fast he's moving because he operates by the laws of the Universe. Superman is as strong as he needs to be and as fast as he needs to be when ​he needs to be.

 

[macdaddymario]

Simply put, you are arguing that he can move fast enough to time travel, which he has never done/shown to be capable of doing/been even remotly hinted at that he can do outside of that one film. Meaning, by the rules posted on the official page, we must assume that it was a silly plot for the film, and thus not an abbility he activly posseses. Thus, he is not capable of traveling at speeds which break down the very laws of fabric and time. Again by the rules of the debate.

 

[vector]

it is obvious who would win in this fight. goku grabs hold of superman, instant transmissions to a system with a red planet, breaks superman's neck with his pinky

you guys forget, goku's powers cant b taken away from him and have no restriction or limits as to how he can use it .... superman on the other hand, pwnt