ScrewAttack: Goku vs Superman

[macdaddymario]

All you are serving to do is show that you can't maintain this debate within a set parameter. Like screwattack or not (I can take em or leave em) you're posting in a topic, about their topic. That's the same thing as someone going into a thread you make and throwing out any basis for debate you attempted to establish. You can say you wouldn't care, but that isn't the point.

As you said, that's the beautiful part about a conversation. Being able to change the parameters of it. However, what is set up here (screwattack) is a debate with set parameters, meaning they aren't changed to make an argument more valid one way or the other.

You're also seem to be using pre-crisis Sups, when the perameters of the set debate was for the modern day, more interesting Sups that doesn't sneeze out a universe because of magic dust.

You can insult the idea of a neutral universe all you want, but fact is it is the only way to do a proper vs between two characters. Otherwise one character is getting an unfair advantage over another.. doesn't matter what universe they are from. Which is the only way you're getting an objective view on a set of characters.

 

[Renyori]

The feats Zeo posted are post crisis, and everything i've mentioned are post crisis. Pre-Crisis was sneezing away solar systems, and tossing around multiple planets simultaneously, Goku shouldn't even be mentioned against him. Screwattack is basically trying to put Superman vs some amalgam uncanon Goku that doesn't exist in the actual continuity. They might as well throw in my little sisters fanmade dragonball comics as well and say it's allowed.

If people were to debate both characters, I do agree that they should fight in a neutral place where both their abilities are in play. But that doesn't mean Superman should be made into a DB character and suddenly have ki when he normally doesn't. So I do agree with Grega that Goku wouldn't beable to sense Superman's ki, because it doesn't exist in the DC multiverse.

But really, the bottom line here is that Goku actually has no way of touching Superman, let alone harming him. The dude tanks point blank Supernova's, going through black holes, and being in the center of 2 planets colliding together. While Goku gets cut, bruised, injured, by getting punched, kicked, etc by people around his own strength level. What will happen if he gets punched by someone who physically travels faster than light, and lifts 6 sextillion tons?

 

[Grega]

Mario you missunderstood me. I didnt say take away Gokus KI. I was saying that Goku senses the KI of his foes in order to somewhat predict their moves. And Sups doesnt have KI. Its essentially a fight against the androids in DBZ. They didnt have KI and thus no one could sense them. The only reason they got destroyed is because the difference in power. Think Gohan VS Cell on the topic of power difference. Now imagine Superman round Gokus level. So Goku VS Cell in a way. Now make Cell like the other androids and prevent him from being read through KI.

The result would be that Goku looses a lot more than he did in the show. And that is with a similar level of power, and Goku retaining ALL his techniques and abilities.

 

[hleV]

Why do you capitalize ki

 

[Almighty_Gir]

So here's an interesting observation.

at no point in the history of DBZ, has a character hit another one WHILE TRAVELING AT INSTANT TRANSMISSION SPEEDS. you see plenty of occasions where IT is used to move one character into a position around another, and then the blow is struck. even during Gokus fight on planet Namek where he first shows his ability to move faster than the eye could follow, he wasn't traveling at IT speeds. I believe the reason for this, is down to simple physics... if a DBZ character were to hit someone while traveling at near light speed, they would destroy both characters in the process.

it's simple physics.

as you increase in speed, you also increase mass. which also increases your output energy. the formula for this is:
<energy> = <rest mass2> * <constant2> / ((1 - <velocity2> / <constant2>) / (1 - <velocity2> / <constant2>)) = <mass> * <constant2>

forgive the sloppiness of that formula, there's no way (i'm aware of) to format it properly for this forum, but in words:
Energy is equal to the rest mass of an object divided by the square root of one minus velocity squared devided by the constant squared, which is equal to the total mass multiplied by the constant squared.

the only weight information i can find about goku, is that he weighs 63kg. but that's at the end of the piccolo saga. so i imagine at the end of the Buu saga he's bulked up a bit and probably weighs somewhere around 90kg. so i'll use that.

so if he were to be traveling at IT speeds, or in other words, the speed of light. then his energy would be:
90sq * 299,792,458sq = 7.27992 to the power of 20 joules.

now, whenever Goku fights people of equal or greater power than him, they are almost always stationary. their punches move fast for sure, but their punches can't move faster than the speed of light as the rest of their body doesn't either... or you wouldn't see them at all. so we know that no punch in the history of DBZ has ever hit with anywhere close to that force. but here's where it gets interesting. Superman HAS been hit by that force (by the flash), and all it did was stagger him. so if goku being hit by forces much lower gets cut, bruised, knocked to the ground and/or unconscious, and superman is only staggered momentarily by it, then there's a clear winner there.

also take into account that the total energy of the hit needs to be multiplied by a coefficient based on the strength of the character using it. Goku's power level is largely set in stone, there was a final canon value given and anything past that point is purely speculation but is still finite. Supermans power level is infinitesimal, there is no number by which it can be measured. it can be whatever he wants/needs it to be.

so if goku were to punch superman while traveling at the speed of light, he would break himself utterly on impact, and superman would only be momentarily stunned. if superman were to hit goku at the speed of light, due to the coefficients involved, the damage to goku would range from being broken utterly, to simply disappearing in a pink mist.

 

[Renyori]

Well IT isn't actually physically travelling. It's more like doing a technique, and allowing the technique to interdimensionally get you from point A to B. You don't gain any momentum. Canonically, it should be slower to use IT, than it is to use movement speed in the heat of a fight. But you're correct, if Superman does go FTL and hits Goku with his ridiculous strength, Goku should disappear upon contact.

 

[Almighty_Gir]

i'm not counting faster than light travel, just light speed.

but the observation is still correct, you never ever see a DBZ character traveling anywhere near that speed, not even a fraction of it, and landing a punch. because they either move at a slower speed while fighting, or they become stationary and then go for the hit.

 

[macdaddymario]

Ren, I'm honestly not trying to debate wether Goku would get instakilled or not. Like I said, I've seen arguments that go both ways on the subject. I'm just intrested in making sure people don't just sweep one character under the rug simply because they like one more then the other, because that's not the point of a debate.

Also, Grega. I wasn't assuming you were saying take away Goku's ki. That was based on something Prae posted. Maybe I misunderstood him, but that's what I was basing that off of.

 

[IFlip92]

Dudes, if Superman doesn't use some form of ki then I demand an autopsy or some form of analysis made on his muscle formation. In the end Superman is fantasy while Goku retains some form of believable content. There is no way that the mass of Superman's (and Goku's as a matter of fact) muscle size could exert the amount of physical force alone, without some form of invisible energy/radiation behind it coming from an yet humanly unknown source or unless they have bionic/mechanical implants and not even then. You got to remember here we humans don't know everything in the Universe yet (for eg. explain to me Deja Vus) but I assure you ki is real. If you don't believe so there are some monks that are able to perform unbelievable what-we-would-call stunts who might want to have a word with you and also Yin-Yang and Karma (none of these to be confused with religion, I am atheist as a matter of fact).

Just like the sun emits the radiation that gives Superman more power/ki, or Kryptonite gives him negative/lethal radiation to his atomic structure. The way I think about Superman is that he is a fully developed Brolly that is composed and wasn't dropped on his head as a baby lol and as we all know Brolly's power increases even when he is standing still and considering how long Supes has been around I would guess he would be about Brolly SSJ10 lol. With a power like that I think Goku could sense him from one edge of the galaxy to the other and even if he ITed him away from the sun I think Supes would still be about Brolly SSJ5 lol.

 

[Renyori]

Superman is not even human so there's really no logic in using human size muscles as a template. Kryptonion cellular structure is more dense, resilient, and biologically more effective than human tissue. It also absorbs the suns radiation for boosted strength. Comics don't take muscle formation literal. There's characters like Batman who is peak human level and can regularly bench press 1000lb yet looks smaller than most power lifters.

Goku wouldn't sense him because ki doesn't exist in the DC multiverse, so there's no reason to assume Supermans power is from it.

Ren, I'm honestly not trying to debate wether Goku would get instakilled or not. Like I said, I've seen arguments that go both ways on the subject. I'm just intrested in making sure people don't just sweep one character under the rug simply because they like one more then the other, because that's not the point of a debate.

Anyone debating on the side of Superman on this forum most likely have knowledge of both characters. The same cannot be said for the other side. You should be replying to these people:

Naahh Goku would win, he would easily match Supermans speed and since energy blasts would destroy any material, it would in theory also be able to destroy Superman. Case closed.

I would still cheer for Goku, I think he could defeat Superman but not utterly destroy him. I see it as Goku is a lot stronger, faster and has a lot more destructive force. So he could pummel Superman to the brink of death, but that's it.

Goku will rearrange [re-ar-range] Superman's face because he'll turn into supersaiyan 2 and beat the crap out of him in 2 seconds.

Goku shook the entire planet with his screams. SSJ3 Goku would demolish Superman.

Superman is a cripple compared to Goku. Superman has no energy attack like Goku does.

Superman can suck hi's ****.
Goku can destroy the sun like is nothing, in GT goku can easy destroy the whole universe , Goku is more powerfull than the shitty Gods ,Goku is overpowered, this battle sucks.

Goku actually has a fighting style that's taken him years to master. All Superman has is his brawler strength, which in essence is comparable to fighting games where less-experienced players would just mash the punch button.

I think Goku would wtf stomp Superman I honestly think Frieza could kill Superman lol

it is obvious who would win in this fight. goku grabs hold of superman, instant transmissions to a system with a red planet, breaks superman's neck with his pinky

 

[IFlip92]

Superman is not even human so there's really no logic in using human size muscles as a template. Kryptonion cellular structure is more dense, resilient, and biologically more effective than human tissue. It also absorbs the suns radiation for boosted strength. Comics don't take muscle formation literal. There's characters like Batman who is peak human level and can regularly bench press 1000lb yet looks smaller than most power lifters.

Goku wouldn't sense him because ki doesn't exist in the DC multiverse, so there's no reason to assume Supermans power is from it.

May I remind you Goku isn't human either? Because they are a warrior race, they also have some form of hardened skin and other improvements over human beings (like their tails , I wish I had one ). In fact, I can't recall any fights he had against any powerful humans in order to compare how tough his anatomic structure is compared to humans. He always fights aliens and other sayians etc. and never breaks a sweat with humans apart from when he was like... what? 8 years old?

I am not arguing that he would win here, although before reading this thread I always had the impression he would, but I gotta try and give some credit to Goku where it is due since he's my favorite ^^.

 

[Renyori]

I didn't compare Goku's muscles to human muscles

 

[Zeonix]

I'd argue the only ability inherent to the Saiyans is the potential to grow stronger through physical trauma. They're glass cannons, powered by ki. Harder skin due to being a "warrior race"? I don't know about that. My memory of DBZ consists of Goku getting the everliving shit beaten out of him time and again, and either magicking his way out of certain death or some completely ridiculous plot device saves him.

 

[IFlip92]

@Praetorius that is just speculation and wishful thinking on my part haha. What led me to believe that is from the simple fact that I stated that I can't remember "any fights he had against any powerful humans in order to compare how tough his anatomic structure is compared to humans. He always fights aliens and other sayians etc. and never breaks a sweat with humans apart from when he was like... what? 8 years old?"

A thought just occurred to me reading through the quotes @Ren posted. Since the Sun can affect Supes powers, the Sun being a form of energy in itself, with the risk of sort-of contradicting my previous post, it makes me wonder what effect would ki energy have on Superman? I think that's Superman's weakness actually, his powers fluctuate in different environments due to the energies/radiation waves he receives (or doesn't receive)? Btw before anyone says anything, this question doesn't have an answer unless AT would pair up with the current or previous Supes authors and answer this for us lol.

On another note, I'm not sure how this would help Goku cos as far as I've been reading into this lately, Supes can see through the full radiation/radio waves/light etc. spectrum and if he sees something potentially harmful to him coming his way I doubt he would stand still and just take it.

RE: Where the hell is the video anyway? It's 21/12/2012 already....

 

[macdaddymario]

Ren, I would be replying to those people, if others would stop trying to take everything away from the other player in this fight and instead focus on their said character. For example, as I said before some people are saying that ki wouldn't have any bearing in the fight at all because it doesn't exist in DC land. But doing so takes away any fight that may have been. So I instead can only reply to current comments because people again seem to think you should just drop Goku in DC land, which would end the fight right off, and the same could be said about dropping Sups in Dragonball land where silly plot devices pop up to help the Z fighter who needs it most. Thus putting me in possition of making sure neither one of these is the case for a proper comparison to be drawn and debated.

That being said, doesn't help that I'm doing this on my phone, really should use the PC for this kinda stuff.

 

[Renyori]

@Ren posted. Since the Sun can affect Supes powers, the Sun being a form of energy in itself, with the risk of sort-of contradicting my previous post, it makes me wonder what effect would ki energy have on Superman? I think that's Superman's weakness actually, his powers fluctuate in different environments due to the energies/radiation waves he receives (or doesn't receive)? Btw before anyone says anything, this question doesn't have an answer unless AT would pair up with the current or previous Supes authors and answer this for us lol.

On another note, I'm not sure how this would help Goku cos as far as I've been reading into this lately, Supes can see through the full radiation/radio waves/light etc. spectrum and if he sees something potentially harmful to him coming his way I doubt he would stand still and just take it.

No.. Ki is just Ki. It's not Red Sun radiation or Kryptonite.

 

[macdaddymario]

Well, to be fair. Ki is what flows through the body, bonding it together with the earth, wind, spirit, mind and such.. the binding energy refered to by most serious martial artists and spiritualists. If we want to nerd it up a bit more.. it is basically what the Force is in Star Wars and was actually the idea for such.

 

[Eon]

So what you're saying is that Goku is a jedi.






This changes everything.

 

[Grega]

Well, to be fair. Ki is what flows through the body, bonding it together with the earth, wind, spirit, mind and such.. the binding energy refered to by most serious martial artists and spiritualists. If we want to nerd it up a bit more.. it is basically what the Force is in Star Wars and was actually the idea for such.

Minus the fact that they changed that to micro organisms ^^

But yes KI is what you say in he DBZ universe. And Goku being from the DBZ universe is also affected by its laws. Supes is from the DC universe where KI doesnt play any major role if it even exists. So Sups may not have any KI flowing though him based on the universe he originates from. Just like Goku wouldnt have any connection to the DC universe.

KI in DBZ is thought as pure energy, not a form of magic and as such Supes is as resistant to it as he is resistant to the heat of a sun, or a black hole.

 

[Damaera]

Well, to be fair. Ki is what flows through the body, bonding it together with the earth, wind, spirit, mind and such.. the binding energy refered to by most serious martial artists and spiritualists. If we want to nerd it up a bit more.. it is basically what the Force is in Star Wars and was actually the idea for such.

i think what this all boils down to is superman > goku