Power Struggle progression

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I was just checking out the new FX video again and it got me thinking...

What if we altered the values in how a power struggle operates?

We'll assume that two players have the same PL, Ki levels, and stamina. There are no variances which exist, because I don't want to get into that at all. The idea is that the beam struggle will create the same number value regardless of distance, and it will be scaled. Like from say Goku to Vegeta, the path always has a value of 100. Based on the push behind the attacks, it will travel at a value per second.

Now when you look at the FX video, each pump pushes it from one end to the other at the same speed. It never slows down or speeds up once Ki is pumped into it. This tells me that the value is spread evenly throughout. Instead I suggest that on both ends closer to the players, the 'values to beat' gradually increase. So in the middle, it has a very low value to it.

Numerically, based on a 100 value scale, this is how it'd look.

[30][20][10][10][20][30]

P1 & P2 are perfectly even. Lets say P1 pushes the attack towards P2. The attack begins in the middle. The distance it travels is 10 value per second.

To cross the middle, it takes 1 second. To cross the next tier, it's 2 seconds. The last tier is 3 seconds. This will give the effect of the attack speeding up and slowing down as it approaches the other player, even though it's traveling at the same value per second. This adds a little suspense to the attack and in a close struggle can give the other player time to fight back. It also makes it seem like they're trying to fight back the attack on their own, and they need your help!!! :rolleyes:

If the beam is on P1's side for say 4 seconds and he sends it back, it will slowly move back towards the other player before speeding up and slowing down again.

Unless he puts an incredible amount of power behind it, and it goes skyrocketing into him. That's also still a possibility.

EDIT: 30 + 20 + 10 = 60 x 2 = 120. doh
 
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The speed of the PS is determined by how much into the red/blue zone it is on the struggle bar. If its at the middle it travels slower and if its towards an edge it travels faster.

Not to mention after a certain amount of time you will get a double speed warning and the speed of the PS is doubled from that time on.

The power you give into the PS on the other hand is dependant on 5 things.
- What attack you used
- How much you charged the attack
- How much you charged the pump
- Your PL
- The distance the pump has to travel

So the longer the distance of the pump the weaker the pump gets.
 
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cool that will give me something to think on. thanks.

The speed of the PS is determined by how much into the red/blue zone it is on the struggle bar. If its at the middle it travels slower and if its towards an edge it travels faster.

Not to mention after a certain amount of time you will get a double speed warning and the speed of the PS is doubled from that time on.

The power you give into the PS on the other hand is dependent on 5 things.
- What attack you used
- How much you charged the attack
- How much you charged the pump
- Your PL
- The distance the pump has to travel

So the longer the distance of the pump the weaker the pump gets.
Something about the distance thing bothers me. For example, if you're defending a beam, and you fly backwards before blocking it, it'll be more difficult for them to increase its power, because not only will the pump have to travel farther, but it will have a lesser effect. Alright.

Lets see if there's any setbacks with this...

If a player has a beam attack charged, like Final Flash vs Cell's KHH, it would be less advantageous for him to fire it first. If it's easier to put more juice into the beam the closer it gets, and that power is more effective up close, then if you have a stronger attack ready to go, you won't have to worry about it flying into you.

You wait, you fire it when the KHH is right next to you, and you have more influence on pumping it initially. I guess how effective this is depends on how long PS fights can go for. It seems like the longer you can keep it closer to you, the better off you are.

If the opponent tries to keep pushing it while it's next to you, less energy can be used by the defender to counter it. You would just have to time your pumps when you saw the enemy's traveling.

I'll admit I think this is much more involved and strategic, so I like it. It sounds like it favors being conservative and making struggles last longer. If you try to be too conservative and keep the beam closer to you, you take on more risk, but you have a better chance at coming back.

Two questions:
Can you pump Ki into beam attacks being blocked?

Does actual distance effect pumping the beam? Or does relative distance on a fixed scale?



If it's actual distance, it'd be even more easier to do the above, keeping the attack close to you. Although I am overlooking some things, like how much it can possibly diminish over distance. If that loss of power had a diminishing effect, like it lost less of its power the farther it goes, it wouldn't be an issue.

Like distance traveled...
1 seconds, 10% loss in power
2 seconds, 15% loss (-5)
3 seconds, 20% loss (-5)
4 seconds, 24% loss (-4)
5 seconds, 27% loss (-3)
6 seconds, 29% loss (-2)
7 seconds, 30% loss (-1)


The only problem I see is that beam struggles would need to be done above a certain distance, otherwise the attack would move too quickly in one direction or the other.

I see the values spread in this case the opposite of what I suggested.

[13][17][20][20][17][13]

And another question...

Can percentages be coded into the game?
 
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Dont misstake. Pump power is not beam power.

Beam power does not deteriorate with distance. Only pump power does. And while pumping into a struggle you cant move.

Meaning the distance only comes into play once the PS has allready started.

The entire PS system didnt change to much from the last open beta. Aside from effects and some value related changes the PS system is as it was in the open beta. Its been like that all the time now.
 
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Dont misstake. Pump power is not beam power.

Beam power does not deteriorate with distance. Only pump power does. And while pumping into a struggle you cant move.

Meaning the distance only comes into play once the PS has already started.

The entire PS system didnt change to much from the last open beta. Aside from effects and some value related changes the PS system is as it was in the open beta. Its been like that all the time now.
Let me rephrase that. If an attack was coming at you, you'd be better off flying backwards as long as you could before blocking it. It would take longer for the player's initial Ki pump to reach the already existent beam strength, and it would also be less effective to boot once it did. By that time, you'd have more time to fight the beam back some so the pump wouldn't kill you, and it'd make the other person's Ki less effective as well.

So relating this to my questions before, I was wondering how the distance was considered numerically. Is it a closed system where the distance will always be on a relative scale, like 1-100? Or is it an open system where distance is determined by actual distance from the other player?

I just ask because in a closed system, it would be a lot more controlled and contained so you wouldn't have issues if the other player was blocking the beam from the other side of the map.

Visually, on a closed scale, the pump would speed up if they're farther apart. If they were closer, the pump would slow down.

I'm really just curious about 2 things:
  1. Is the distance on an open or closed system? (based on above)
  2. Does it have to be a Beam struggle for a player to pump Ki, or can a player pump ki if someone is blocking it?
 
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Let me rephrase that. If an attack was coming at you, you'd be better off flying backwards as long as you could before blocking it. It would take longer for the player's initial Ki pump to reach the already existent beam strength, and it would also be less effective to boot once it did. By that time, you'd have more time to fight the beam back some so the pump wouldn't kill you, and it'd make the other person's Ki less effective as well.
Ahh but that would only work out if you had a big enough PL advantage to actually throw his attack back. Remember beam strength does not decrease with distance. So if your attack was weaker than his youd basically end up waiting for the last second to start a struggle thats still heading your way with you haveing very little time to make a pump and shoot it.

In reality it would be best for you to start the struggle when his beam is further away.


Pumping allso works for a BS. But only on the attackers side.

As for your questiopn regardiung pump speed. Both your asumptions are wrong. The pump speed itself does not change. Only its strength changes. As in it gets weaker with every second while its moveing. Though there is a min level it can reach im not really sure what that level is set to ATM.


As said its preety much exactly the same as for the open beta. Only that some values were changed. Meaning you can no longer equally struggle a signiture beam with a generic beam unless you have enough PL advantage to cover the beam strength advantage.
 
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Ahh but that would only work out if you had a big enough PL advantage to actually throw his attack back. Remember beam strength does not decrease with distance. So if your attack was weaker than his youd basically end up waiting for the last second to start a struggle thats still heading your way with you haveing very little time to make a pump and shoot it.
Yeah that's why in the example I said Vegeta's Final Flash vs Cell's KHH, since I'm assuming Final Flash is stronger. That initial strength would most likely outweigh whatever PL differences there were so it'd be a safer bet.

In reality it would be best for you to start the struggle when his beam is further away.
True, if you have the weaker beam, that's a must.

Pumping allso works for a BS. But only on the attackers side.

As for your questiopn regardiung pump speed. Both your asumptions are wrong. The pump speed itself does not change. Only its strength changes. As in it gets weaker with every second while its moveing. Though there is a min level it can reach im not really sure what that level is set to ATM.
So it'd be advantageous to get additional distance before blocking regardless.

The assumptions I made were based on if the struggle was under a closed system, that's how it'd affect it. Think of it like this.
I can walk a football field, 100 yards in 100 steps. I can also walk 50 yards in 100 steps, but they would be shorter. Assume that it takes me the same amount of time per step. Two people walking would start and stop at the same time, but one would be walking twice as fast as the other. That's what I mean by a closed system; 100 steps are taken all the time, regardless of distance.​

It sounds to me like it's an open system with a floor cap. So based on how that would work, if you're the weaker player, getting more distance will always be beneficial to a limited extent (that being the distance where min value is reached).

As said its preety much exactly the same as for the open beta. Only that some values were changed. Meaning you can no longer equally struggle a signiture beam with a generic beam unless you have enough PL advantage to cover the beam strength advantage.
Yeah relating this to the above, you'd want to fire the generic beam asap so you'd have time for your PL to kick in.


But overall, why are we talking about this?

My concern, and it's a very minor one, is that...

Vegeta charges a stronger beam, Final Flash. Cell fires a KHH at Vegeta. He waits until it's almost next to him and fires back. Both of them have the same Power Level. The beam moves slowly back towards Cell.

Before they started fighting, Vegeta flew back to the other side of the map, so it takes 8 seconds for the pump to reach the beam.

A Maximum charged pump takes 5 seconds to charge.

Cell will always send a fully charged pump at Vegeta because he has plenty of time and wants to push it as hard as he can.

Every 5 seconds, a pump comes towards him which has the same strength to it.

Now the maximum amount that power can diminish over distance is say down to 75%.

After the pump is fired by Cell, 3 seconds into it, Vegeta will counter with a 3/4 charged Pump, so that both are perfectly equal. It takes him .75 x 5 seconds = 3.75 seconds to charge it, and say 1 second for it to reach the beam (= 4.75 seconds). This is like a math problem here lol.


The outcome is that, because ki pumps travel the same speed regardless of distance (takes 8 seconds in this example), and because there's a predictable amount to which the pump's effectiveness wears down to(75% in this example), it can be easily predicted by the defender so that he can keep the beam exactly where he wants it all the time.

It costs Vegeta 25% less Ki, and when the power timer hits, he can use all of his reserves to push it into a Ki-less Cell.

The only variance in this is how Turbo affects Power Level and how that affects the pump strength. That's also visual and can be mimicked.

If this was under a closed system and it always took the ki pump 5 seconds to reach the beam, regardless of distance, then this could never happen.
 
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If this was under a closed system and it always took the ki pump 5 seconds to reach the beam, regardless of distance, then this could never happen.
Ahh but would that not only work correctly if the football field did not change in size. Your whole viewpoint at this time is that there is a PS. But that the PS does not move while the pump is traveling.

So having a said closed system of 5 seconds would mean that if the PS is right next to you it would take 5 seconds for it to travel that 2 meters from you to the PS. And with the PS comming to you in a rate of 2 meters per 4 seconds (for example) youd end upo with a pump thats moveing backwards ^^
 
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Ahh but would that not only work correctly if the football field did not change in size. Your whole viewpoint at this time is that there is a PS. But that the PS does not move while the pump is traveling.

So having a said closed system of 5 seconds would mean that if the PS is right next to you it would take 5 seconds for it to travel that 2 meters from you to the PS. And with the PS comming to you in a rate of 2 meters per 4 seconds (for example) youd end upo with a pump thats moveing backwards ^^
Sorry I used the wrong word. I meant 5 seconds to reach the other side, not the beam. So if the beam was in the middle, it'd always take 2.5 seconds.

What do you think about that?

EDIT: Not what do you think about the amount of time, but just the concept.
 
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Well i see what you mean.

BTW couldnt you have said that in the first place? And not overcomplicated the explanation >.<


Only flaw i can find with it is the possible time. If the people are close youd need a faster time. But when they are farr off that faster time would be really weird. If you get my drift.

Taking the 5 second example again. The people are closer than what a PS needs to travel in 5 seconds would mean that the pumps wouold travel insanely slow, where a large distance would result in the oposite. The pumps traveling insanely fast. So on one side you have a PS where the PS travels to the other guy and back befor the pump gets to the middle and in the other hand you have a pump going so fast that it would catch the PS before it reaches the middle going from your side to the other.
 
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That might be offtopic, but I prefer PS without pumping sprites shown (like in some video, Power Struggle FX I think). I don't recall seeing those "pump balls" in manga/series.
 
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Goku VS Vegeta.
The whole beam enlarged. That was the pump. Besides we dont necesairily need to stick to DBZ. Seeing pumps gives you more information of whats going on. Meaning you are able to see when your pump will hit the struggle and thus plan a bit ahead.
 
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Well i see what you mean.

BTW couldnt you have said that in the first place? And not overcomplicated the explanation >.<
I didn't know what kind of system was in place. I've been changing the ideas around for the most part the entire time. :p

It's true, in extremes it'd look vastly differently. But this way distance would be irrelevant in any beam struggle, so whether you were up close or far away, you could still fight back just as well.

I think if the sprite sizes of the beam were changed depending on actual distance, it wouldn't look as odd. Like if you're closer, the beam sprites are much larger. If you're farther away, the beam sprites are smaller. The pump sprites could also be larger/smaller depending on actual distance as well.
 
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You still missed my other point about pumps moveing faster than the struggle on big distances and so slow that the struggle comes back before the pump even gets to half when close up.
 
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You still missed my other point about pumps moveing faster than the struggle on big distances and so slow that the struggle comes back before the pump even gets to half when close up.
Sorry, I guess I should've quoted the whole response you said instead of part of it. I did respond, but maybe it wasn't clear.

"I think if the sprite sizes of the beam were changed depending on actual distance, it wouldn't look as odd. Like if you're closer, the beam sprites are much larger. If you're farther away, the beam sprites are smaller. The pump sprites could also be larger/smaller depending on actual distance as well."

Something that's big moves slower, something that's smaller moves faster. Visually it makes more sense. The beam sprites could start off bigger and grow at a faster rate too. Bigger pumps means bigger beams. The number values would all stay the same though.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vBU3VFd5Ic[/ame]
3:05 Starts out smaller, distance closes, both start pumping into the attack, it grows incredibly larger before exploding.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tda24eLmo04[/ame]
Cell and Gohan are both relatively close with KHH beams. The beams are much larger, and the stream going into it is thicker.
 
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Goku VS Vegeta.
The whole beam enlarged. That was the pump. Besides we dont necesairily need to stick to DBZ. Seeing pumps gives you more information of whats going on. Meaning you are able to see when your pump will hit the struggle and thus plan a bit ahead.
I was aware of that before making a post. It's just that IMO it would look cooler and not really affect the gameplay much if the main beams' collision sphere went bigger and no pump balls were shown. That way it would look that a character (not player, but the character he's controling) is trying harder and not sending some additional power into the PS.
 
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I think there may be plans for the beams themselves to enlarge during a pump instead of a ball travelling along.
 
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I'm glad to know that. I hope that's not only an "I think".
 
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I think there may be plans for the beams themselves to enlarge during a pump instead of a ball travelling along.
Yeah just to re-emphasize where this thread is going...

If the distance for pumps was under a fixed system, where it took 5 seconds to get from one end to the other, then there would be more consistency in the system, and it'd be easier to balance.


In order to avoid the problem Grega mentioned under extremes, where if you're extremely far the pump travels really fast, and if you're really close, the pump travels incredibly slow, the size of the pumps could be determined by the ACTUAL distance of the beam struggle.

Actual Distance affects Pump size which affects Beam Growth
This does not affect the struggle values of the pump or the beam, only how the visuals are displayed.
EX
P1 is very close to P2. The beam is in the middle.

The pump still takes 2.5 seconds to reach the beam, but it's much larger, because the ACTUAL distance is shorter. The size of the beam is influenced by the size of the pump, so the beam grows larger much more quickly as a result.

EX2
P1 is on the other side of the map from P2. The beam is in the middle.

The pump still takes 2.5 seconds to reach the beam, even over a long distance. However the pump is much smaller, and thus the size of the beam increases more slowly.​

The stream feeding into the beam could also have its size increased or decreased depending on how short/long the distance is as well, with a minimum and maximum size in place.


Now the beam itself could travel on an ACTUAL distance scale or under the fixed scale. That you'd need to test to determine.

If it was under an ACTUAL distance, you may want the pump speed to go from one side to the other in 3 seconds instead of 5 so that last minute pumps by the defender won't be delayed for too long.

Or you could create a short pause, maybe for 1 or 2 seconds, before the beam actually detonates once it reaches the other side. However, if the PS timer kicks in and speeds are ramped, this delay would be removed.


There are several other solutions and factors to consider too. Turbo could speed up how fast the pumps travel.

Pump speed plays a big role in power struggles, and there may be solutions other than changing how the distance works.

EDIT
So far I think this is how things should work:
The beam should travel on a fixed scale unrelated to actual distance.

Pump Size should increase or decrease depending on how actual distance. If they're closer, the pump size increases.

Pump Size affects the Beam Size in turn.

So long distance beam struggles, the beams and pumps would be smaller, but the beam would travel faster.

Short distance beam struggles, the beams and pumps would be much bigger, but the beam would travel slower.

Pump Speed could be affected by several things: Actual/Fixed distance scales, Turbo, SAM, who knows.​

And on a side note, maybe players can have the option of flying/walking closer together. This would affect visuals.

It may or may not affect strategy. If anything, it should benefit the one trying to overpower the other, but how that would work, I don't know. If no balanced solution could be determined, it'd simply affect visuals.
 
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In the whole first part of your post you still neglected one important issue. The struggle moves. And the speed is determined by the strenght on each side of the struggle. Meaning the beam itself. Each pump gives energy to the struggle. The more the energy difference btwean the sides of the struggle the more speed the struggle has.

So simply altering visuals wont really affect the flaws of a closed space concept.

And i allso honestly think the current solution works best. Meaning the pumps have their own speed. And the speed is not affected by distance. Instead having the speed be affected by pump charge or turbo would be simpler and not leave any hols ion the design.
 

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