Philosophical Belief Thread

[sub]

All hail Thor!

 

[kam!]

NOOOO christians started it. They should provide evidence so atheists can prove them wrong!!

The "problem" is, it's about belief. Christianity did not prove that all other gods do not exists, they simply
don't believe in them (well in their view they don't exist, but there is no proof).
Atheists however say that there are no gods at all, without any prove.
Agnostics really go the smartest way.

A funny quote I read a few days ago:

Those who believe need no evidence at all; for those who don’t, no evidence is needed."

 

[J-Dude]

NOOOO christians started it. They should provide evidence so atheists can prove them wrong!!

The "problem" is, it's about belief. Christianity did not prove that all other gods do not exists, they simply
don't believe in them (well in their view they don't exist, but there is no proof).
Atheists however say that there are no gods at all, without any prove.
Agnostics really go the smartest way.

A funny quote I read a few days ago:

You see, HERE is where agnosticism confuses me.

They take the middle road and say anyone can be right, and search for absolute proof, or at least search for what's proof enough for them.

But if you can't prove or disprove, then as an agnostic, you never commit to anything, and so when it comes time to meet the maker, or lack thereof, what are you going to do? You can't stick your finger in every pie, pray to God, Allah, Buddha (okay, he's not supposedly a "God", but whatever), or Shiva and hope one of them is the right one and that he/she/it will let you into whatever fluffy afterlife exists for either.

That's why I say it's safer to have faith in something than to have faith in nothing (deity-wise).

 

[MC]

But what if the thing you have faith in turns out to be false?

 

[J-Dude]

But what if the thing you have faith in turns out to be false?

Then so be it. What's the harm in believing in something, even if there's a chance that thing may not exist? Isn't that what faith is about?

That's where I don't see eye to eye with a lot of people here. Most of you want to see something with your own eyes before you'll believe it, but that's really missing the point of it entirely. In Christianity, you're supposed to believe and keep that belief despite all the worldly things and people who try to get you to do otherwise. Faith in the face of uncertainty, in the face of persecution, prosecution and otherwise is what you have to endure to make it to heaven. It was once said that it's easier to pull a camel through the eye of a needle than to make it to the kingdom of heaven.

So really, the reason I take offense so often to atheists (the persistent, pushy ones, anyway) is that they try to take faith away from those who have it. Those WITH religions and faiths trying to bring others into their fold are trying to give faith to those who have none. Which, to you, seems the nobler cause? You can disagree, be my guest, but we're all entitled to our own opinions.

 

[Zeonix]

You see, HERE is where agnosticism confuses me.

They take the middle road and say anyone can be right, and search for absolute proof, or at least search for what's proof enough for them.

But if you can't prove or disprove, then as an agnostic, you never commit to anything, and so when it comes time to meet the maker, or lack thereof, what are you going to do? You can't stick your finger in every pie, pray to God, Allah, Buddha (okay, he's not supposedly a "God", but whatever), or Shiva and hope one of them is the right one and that he/she/it will let you into whatever fluffy afterlife exists for either.

That's why I say it's safer to have faith in something than to have faith in nothing (deity-wise).

Even when you describe other gods, you're thinking in Christian terms. Should it turn out that there is a cosmic deity, why should that deity judge us? Why would that deity punish us for our ignorance? If there is, in fact, a cosmic deity, I can guarantee you that none of our religions accurately depicts it. If there isn't, no harm done.

I'll proceed using your route. One doesn't have to "stick his or her finger in every pie" in order to remain "safe". That is something only someone full of fear would do. If one simply accepts all possibilities, and is open to anything within that person's ability to reason, he or she would probably be better off than someone who devotes his life to a single God. Why? Because you have far more chances to be right than you do to be wrong. You aren't denouncing any God, really. You may not be welcoming a specific God with open arms, but you aren't making it a point to throw them under the train either. If it turns out that Odin is actually the one true God, and he lists all of the times you've denounced him, and if he's anything like the Christian god, you're going to have one hell of an eternity.

Personally, I see no reason to fear a supreme deity. If that deity is threatened by my inquisitive nature, perhaps it isn't my superior after all. Perhaps I am the superior creature. If a deity damns me for choosing a different God during my life on Earth, then that God is a jealous God. A jealous God is no God at all, for a true supreme being would not be so weak as to share our emotions. Especially not the basest of our emotions.

A true God is a kind God. A true God is a just God. A true God doesn't judge a person, no, scratch that, a sentient being (after all, it is accepted even by the scientific community that the chances of us being completely alone in this galaxy, let alone the entire Universe is much lower than the chances that we aren't) based on his skin color, religion, race or sexual orientation. That would be silly. No, a true God does not judge us at all.

And again, from my personal perspective, any religion that touts to have a male or female God can't possibly be correct, because any true supreme being wouldn't be one gender or the other. A true cosmic being would encompass both genders, as the two genders are simply parts of a whole and aren't limited to our sexual organs. No, gender extends far beyond the physical realm.

I don't care about being safe. I'm not going to compromise my character on the off chance that a being who appears in stories told by humans, and thus inherently flawed, may meet me at some kind of gate and judge me for all of the things I've done, and all the things I didn't do. I refuse to bow to anything: man, alien, deity, god, supreme being, it doesn't matter. If there is a cosmic being, to even think you'll have the distinct honor to meet such a being face to face is preposterous really. I won't have to bow to a God, because I'll never be good enough to meet such a being, and neither will any of you.

So live your life however you'd like. You obviously shouldn't go out and do evil things, because there are still very real consequences, whether a cosmic being is there to enforce such rules or not. But don't live your life as a slave, be it to your idea of what a God should be or to what others tell you God actually is. Don't chain yourself to dogma, or to your beliefs, or to anything. Keep an open mind. Be prepared for change, and welcome it when it comes.

As complex as life is, it is still quite simple if you want it to be. Living your life by a book isn't the way to do that, though.

This post was originally a lot longer, but I don't think anyone wants to hear what I believe God to be and I sure as hell don't want to rearrange all the paragraphs so it makes some kind of sense. I didn't even bother arranging the few paragraphs I did post, so it might make more sense if you jump around. After reading it again, I can see I rambled a fair bit, but whatever. Next post will be slightly better.

 

[SailorAlea]

But if you can't prove or disprove, then as an agnostic, you never commit to anything, and so when it comes time to meet the maker, or lack thereof, what are you going to do? You can't stick your finger in every pie, pray to God, Allah, Buddha (okay, he's not supposedly a "God", but whatever), or Shiva and hope one of them is the right one and that he/she/it will let you into whatever fluffy afterlife exists for either.

That's why I say it's safer to have faith in something than to have faith in nothing (deity-wise).

So you view your faith as a cynical insurance policy? I'm not sure that if such a "God" were obsessed with making sure people believed in it, that that God would somehow look more favorably on someone who "believed because it was in his best interest."

Also, the notion that anyone who doesn't believe in one particular deity "goes to hell" is silly. We can prove humans have existed for far longer than any established religion. So you're saying all your ancestors who existed before Christianity.. are going to hell because they couldn't believe in a God who hadn't been fabricated by Christianity yet?

 

[Optional22]

My view of life leaves no room for the deities or supernatural of any kind. It's very cold, hard, scientific, and unfortunately, depressing. Be that as it may, I cannot pretend to believe in something I know is untrue even if happiness is at stake.

 

[Zeonix]

Also, the notion that anyone who doesn't believe in one particular deity "goes to hell" is silly. We can prove humans have existed for far longer than any established religion. So you're saying all your ancestors who existed before Christianity.. are going to hell because they couldn't believe in a God who hadn't been fabricated by Christianity yet?

I'm pretty sure they have a loophole for that. Jesus died for everyone's sins, so anyone who lived before the foundation of Christianity is instantly given a "get out of hell for free" card.

 

[sub]

There are two people.

One does good deeds because he feels it is the right thing to do. He is an athiest.

The other does good deeds because he is a religious man, and believes that if he does good deeds, he will get into heaven.

A just got would send person number 1 to heaven, regardless of his religion.

 

[VideoJinx]

God's Traits in my opinion are as follows:

1) Infinte(names, abilities, personalities, etc)
2) Loving


When you look "all that is".. thats what I see to be God, so what would that make you?

I believe we all have an infinite potentil because I believe we're apart of an infinite being, yet I believe we rarely excersise these possibilities because we use our infinitely limited thoughts and beliefs, instead of infinite(open minded) thoughts.

I believe nobody can harm you but yourself, what we call death, isn't and end to life. Fear constricts us and our ideas while sincere care(Love) generates the opposite.

I see no difference in a genius and a "declared" retard, except how one part of myself has chosen to express itself.

I believe we are not alone because we have ourselves to comfort us.

I believe I am you and you are me.. along with my pc my desk and anything you can take note of, because it exists.

 

[MC]

Then so be it. What's the harm in believing in something, even if there's a chance that thing may not exist? Isn't that what faith is about?

That's where I don't see eye to eye with a lot of people here. Most of you want to see something with your own eyes before you'll believe it, but that's really missing the point of it entirely. In Christianity, you're supposed to believe and keep that belief despite all the worldly things and people who try to get you to do otherwise. Faith in the face of uncertainty, in the face of persecution, prosecution and otherwise is what you have to endure to make it to heaven. It was once said that it's easier to pull a camel through the eye of a needle than to make it to the kingdom of heaven.

So really, the reason I take offense so often to atheists (the persistent, pushy ones, anyway) is that they try to take faith away from those who have it. Those WITH religions and faiths trying to bring others into their fold are trying to give faith to those who have none. Which, to you, seems the nobler cause? You can disagree, be my guest, but we're all entitled to our own opinions.

Then, knowing that there's a possibility that the thing you have faith in is false, how would it be any better (or worse) than being agnostic?

 

[Chakra-X]

Or yourself. I find I'm reliable in a tough situation, and if I speak to myself, I respond almost immediately. Whenever I need someone, I'm there. Whenever I need love, I'm there. Whenever I'm sad, I'm there. When I need advice, I'm there. I can depend on me. That goes for everyone, really. You don't need to search for comfort way out there. Everything you need is within you.

Thank you. I really wish people were more independent and not rely on God as there last friend. I mean, in a crisis, if that helps, I understand, but it seems like a crutch. When I win an award, I'll thank those who helped, the family I was brought up in, and my self for the hard work. Why do people thank god for awards? Did he let it happen because he wanted to, meaning, if he did not care, you would not have won it?

Personally, It think its healthier to look toward yourself in a crisis if that is your last resort.




I can't really see an agnostic going to hell if there is a God waiting for us when we die.


Nix basically summed a lot of things up. I sincerely believe that the idea of an almighty can not be accurately depicted by humans. 2000 years ago, they needed shepherds, floods, and bugs to describe God. Things that were relevant to the time. If God was to judge an agnostic, and say "well, you were a good person, but you never committed your life to me, so you shall rot for ever" sounds like a very black and white God, which is contradictory for something that is almighty.

The idea of a God having a gender, a human like appearance, an Anglo-Saxon skin color/voice, to live in the clouds (when that's only a sliver of atmosphere), are concepts that humans are used to. It's how we comprehend. It's very similar to how ancient civilizations thought the Sun was a deity that needed to be fueled by human sacrifices, or that wind was being blown by a giant in the clouds.

But, I am open to the idea of a higher being. Once I learned how ****ing complicated biology is, I thought "ok, something's going on". And DNA changing to fit environments? Not "intelligent design", but there is definitely some kind of force that "knows" these things.

Oh, and this is no offense to you J-Dude. I am not attacking or denouncing any religion. Just adding in some thoughts which make me believe the way I do.



And, according to Wikipedia, (west?) Europe has about a 40%-50% population that is atheist/non theistic. A hell lot more compared to America, which I think it said 70%?

 

[J-Dude]

Augh...you PEOPLE...

...Have you any idea how offended I am right now?

@Nixanthros: You just DON'T GET IT. You HAVE to be devoted to a single God in order to receive any blessings the afterlife has in store. You can't be undecided and see heaven. You are too wrapped up in your fly-like existence on this miserable rock to see that our time here is meaningless save for ensuring the eternity thereafter is a good one.

Your talk of "open-mindedness" is all well and good until it makes you indecisive. You have to make an ultimate choice, and that means you can't maintain being open to all religions, all deities. There can only be one true God, and that God will accept nothing less than your true allegience.

@Alea: Sorry to bring you back to reality, but it's not a sin to look after yourself as well as others. And as to your "proof", don't try and pretend it's as perfect as you believe.

@Optional: I feel genuinely sorry for you and the utter staticness your preception of the Universe must be.

@Sub: Your post particularly offended me. I mean, really, how dare you? How dare you suggest that all atheists are inherently more virtuous than Christians, and that Christians only do things for their own gain and not for the simple sake of others? I'm sorry, but I cannot ignore the sheer gall of that statement. You're pinning us all as self-serving jackasses, and it's libel of the sort that really stuns me that someone can find the nerve to say.

@MC: You know the chance exists, but you persist anyway, because you BELIEVE. You genuinely BELIEVE, that the way you have chosen is indeed the one true way. That means you accept that others are led astray, and you try your best to bring them back to the light. Having faith means you must face great trials, tests of faith such as I have endured here. People you wish to save so convincingly trying to convince you to abandon the path of God and stray on towards Satan. And you must persist, you must be able to hear their words and throw them off, you must stand by your belief whatever the instruments of Hell will use to tempt you, to be taken by the darkness and have your soul won by Satan, and from God.

I am happy to say that none of you, so unwittingly doing Satan's work, have managed to move me one iota. I shall persevere. I shall overcome, and one day walk with Christ in His kingdom.

@Chakra: I dunno. Any time I've been in a time of need, I've alway prayed for God's help and guidance, and always, my prayer was answered. Somehow I made it through, escaped terrible consequence. Somehow, everything turned out okay where it seemed so likely that it shouldn't have. It always indeed felt like there was someone, or something, watching out for me and those I care about. I've seen, heard and experienced so much that has solidified my faith that at times has even brought me to tears. It's nothing I can properly explain, not really. I can only conclude that these things were meant for me alone to understand and feel.

As for sterotypes like angels having wings, God having a large beard and flowing white robes, heaven being in the clouds, yeah, those things have skewed the perception of things and places which more than likely are much different than we preconceive.

And it's true, we cannot be absolutely sure as to how God would judge others. Perhaps he does take pity on the virtuous non-believers. I can't be sure. But still, I do not question His judgement.

 

[SailorAlea]

Augh...you PEOPLE...

...Have you any idea how offended I am right now?

@Alea: Sorry to bring you back to reality, but it's not a sin to look after yourself as well as others. And as to your "proof", don't try and pretend it's as perfect as you believe.

I haven't left reality. In any case, you shouldn't be offended. Even if you disagree with other people's opinions, you should be able to accept them.

Faith, however, is not an insurance policy. I've heard people say that before: "Well, I see your point, but if you're right and there is no afterlife, you're screwed. But if there is one, and I believe, I'm saved."

As numerous people have stated earlier: If the second person were right, I really doubt a God obsessed with ensuring people believed in it with no proof would find a person whose faith was a cynical "insurance policy" praiseworthy.

People are highly suggestible when they're young. This is the time that parents or religious institutions indoctrinate their followers. People at this age don't know anything about logic, reason, proper research, etc.

A child being told by its mother is going to believe its mother when she says that "God lives in Heaven, and watches all of us. So be good," and that faith can be very difficult for some, impossible for others, to bend or change.

As an adult, I'm skeptical about many things. After all, people are very manipulative and dishonest, trying to scam others constantly. This is why proper research and criticism come into play.

I haven't been indoctrinated by any religion as a child; my mind is fairly open.

If you come to me and say "You should believe in God." I'll respond: "Why?"

You look at me, slightly confused. "I'm trying to save your immortal soul; if you don't believe in God, accept Jesus and repent your sins.. when you die, you shall burn in Hell."

"What exactly makes you believe that?" I respond. "That's what I've been taught. It says it in the Bible" you say as I raise my eyebrows.

"And who wrote the Bible? Do you have documentation for it? What were their motivations, qualifications, etc?", shaking my head a little.

"The Bible is the word of God. While written by man, it was divinely inspired," you indignantly respond.

"Yes, but who told you that? Other people who read the Bible? Your parents, when you asked questions? What makes you believe something with absolutely no proof, when if I approached you with a similar situation, about something less believable like a flying spaghetti monster, you would ridicule me? You're believing something, taking something as fact, because somebody merely told you, and somebody told them. You're an otherwise reasonable person who would be understandably skeptical if I tried to tell you something else incredible with no proof, unless I'd indoctrinated you with it since you were a child, just like your parents did."

"My parents didn't indoctrinate me; they merely told me the truth and what they believe!" you snap back.

"Your parents weren't doing it maliciously, trying to deceive you. I'm not saying that. But they did what their parents did to them--brought you with them to church, specifically told you to believe their beliefs, and you'll likely do the same to your children."

Summary: People believe religion easily, blindly, without questioning the basis of their beliefs, because they've been indoctrinated to do so since birth. You very, very, very rarely see secularly raised adults spontaneously "find the majestic truth" in religion and become religious. Because of how suggestible children are, when you tell them things, especially something that seems credible, like what the Church you take them every week to repeats to them, they'll believe it and "know" it, without ever doing research on their own.

Let an educated, reasonable, skeptical adult research religion; and you'll understand why people are skeptical, J-Dude. It's not an assault on your religion, it's skepticism of all religion. I feel pity for any child that is indoctrinated instead of being free to find their own faith.

 

[J-Dude]

I haven't left reality. In any case, you shouldn't be offended. Even if you disagree with other people's opinions, you should be able to accept them.

Faith, however, is not an insurance policy. I've heard people say that before: "Well, I see your point, but if you're right and there is no afterlife, you're screwed. But if there is one, and I believe, I'm saved."

As numerous people have stated earlier: If the second person were right, I really doubt a God obsessed with ensuring people believed in it with no proof would find a person whose faith was a cynical "insurance policy" praiseworthy.

People are highly suggestible when they're young. This is the time that parents or religious institutions indoctrinate their followers. People at this age don't know anything about logic, reason, proper research, etc.

A child being told by its mother is going to believe its mother when she says that "God lives in Heaven, and watches all of us. So be good," and that faith can be very difficult for some, impossible for others, to bend or change.

As an adult, I'm skeptical about many things. After all, people are very manipulative and dishonest, trying to scam others constantly. This is why proper research and criticism come into play.

I haven't been indoctrinated by any religion as a child; my mind is fairly open.

If you come to me and say "You should believe in God." I'll respond: "Why?"

You look at me, slightly confused. "I'm trying to save your immortal soul; if you don't believe in God, accept Jesus and repent your sins.. when you die, you shall burn in Hell."

"What exactly makes you believe that?" I respond. "That's what I've been taught. It says it in the Bible" you say as I raise my eyebrows.

"And who wrote the Bible? Do you have documentation for it? What were their motivations, qualifications, etc?", shaking my head a little.

"The Bible is the word of God. While written by man, it was divinely inspired," you indignantly respond.

"Yes, but who told you that? Other people who read the Bible? Your parents, when you asked questions? What makes you believe something with absolutely no proof, when if I approached you with a similar situation, about something less believable like a flying spaghetti monster, you would ridicule me? You're believing something, taking something as fact, because somebody merely told you, and somebody told them. You're an otherwise reasonable person who would be understandably skeptical if I tried to tell you something else incredible with no proof, unless I'd indoctrinated you with it since you were a child, just like your parents did."

"My parents didn't indoctrinate me; they merely told me the truth and what they believe!" you snap back.

"Your parents weren't doing it maliciously, trying to deceive you. I'm not saying that. But they did what their parents did to them--brought you with them to church, specifically told you to believe their beliefs, and you'll likely do the same to your children."

Summary: People believe religion easily, blindly, without questioning the basis of their beliefs, because they've been indoctrinated to do so since birth. You very, very, very rarely see secularly raised adults spontaneously "find the majestic truth" in religion and become religious. Because of how suggestible children are, when you tell them things, especially something that seems credible, like what the Church you take them every week to repeats to them, they'll believe it and "know" it, without ever doing research on their own.

Let an educated, reasonable, skeptical adult research religion; and you'll understand why people are skeptical, J-Dude. It's not an assault on your religion, it's skepticism of all religion. I feel pity for any child that is indoctrinated instead of being free to find their own faith.

Religion isn't about proof. If you want proof, you're missing the point. It just astounds me how linear you all are, you need everything thrust right under your nose to believe it, and I can't help but pity that narrow outlook at the world.

And just so YOU know, my own mother was an atheist, as currently is my on grandmother, when she married my father. She was extremely irked when my Dad tried to get her to join him in neighborhood Bible studies. Nowadays, my mother speaks PASSIONATELY about the stories in the Bible. I ask one or two questions, and she explains to me with great enthusiasm. I can't help but find all of it awe inspiring.

My own father told me that nobody could ever force me to believe something, and whatever I believed was my choice. I've made my choice of my own freewill. This "indoctrination" crap is just another excuse for atheists to validate their opinions that anyone religious must be an ignorant nut, and can only be religious because they were told to be. I say you people stop trying to totally invalidate our opinions by spreading this bull****. And it's not that I don't comprehend what you're saying, so don't bother trying to reiterate so my "teeny tiny underdeveloped religious brain" can understand it.

And I have every right to show offense to things as disgusting as what Sub tried to say. I just find it incredible that you can pass judgement on every religious person and say that they're essentially dirt, and that their opinions don't matter, and then call yourselves the pinnacle of virtue and morality.

I'm sorry I just can't stomach this. I can't stand being spoekn down to like this from people who have never truly seen...

 

[MC]

Religion isn't about proof. If you want proof, you're missing the point. It just astounds me how linear you all are, you need everything thrust right under your nose to believe it, and I can't help but pity that narrow outlook at the world.

It's not that we want proof, we need it. You need proof as well, which is why you read and live by the Bible. If you don't need proof, then stop reading and living by the Bible.

I just find it incredible that you can pass judgement on every religious person and say that they're essentially dirt, and that their opinions don't matter, and then call yourselves the pinnacle of virtue and morality.

And how is that any different than you passing judgment on us? You did say a few posts ago that we were unwittingly doing the work of Satan, did you not? And just because you're a Christian, doesn't mean you're above criticism and believe it or not, everyone on this forum is criticized at one point or another.

I'm sorry I just can't stomach this. I can't stand being spoekn down to like this from people who have never truly seen...

We're speaking down to you? What about yourself? Are you not speaking down on us with these statements?

It just astounds me how linear you all are, you need everything thrust right under your nose to believe it, and I can't help but pity that narrow outlook at the world.

I say you people stop trying to totally invalidate our opinions by spreading this bull****. And it's not that I don't comprehend what you're saying, so don't bother trying to reiterate so my "teeny tiny underdeveloped religious brain" can understand it.

You are too wrapped up in your fly-like existence on this miserable rock to see that our time here is meaningless save for ensuring the eternity thereafter is a good one.

 

[Spunky]

Agnostic, leaning toward Atheism.

 

[Zeonix]

Augh...you PEOPLE...

...Have you any idea how offended I am right now?

@Nixanthros: You just DON'T GET IT. You HAVE to be devoted to a single God in order to receive any blessings the afterlife has in store. You can't be undecided and see heaven. You are too wrapped up in your fly-like existence on this miserable rock to see that our time here is meaningless save for ensuring the eternity thereafter is a good one.

According to whom, exactly? Because my God says otherwise. I'd sooner believe in reincarnation than in the existence of a super Disneyland at the end of a single lifetime.

 

[SailorAlea]

Religion isn't about proof. If you want proof, you're missing the point.

No.. I think you're missing my point. You say faith is important. What you call faith I call gullibility. Someone is telling you to be faithful. Who? Why?

How do you know that the texts you've read and told you to believe, to be faithful, are anything more than words? Do you know the author? It's absurd.

If you tried to go about a research project in the same manner, with the same leeway that you're giving Christianity, you would be laughed at. "I believed my sources." You have to scrutinize. It's romantic to think, "Oh.. I just have faith in God." Yes, but what is it based on?

It just astounds me how linear you all are, you need everything thrust right under your nose to believe it, and I can't help but pity that narrow outlook at the world.

On the contrary. I view you as the narrow-minded one. You're choosing to believe in something because other people, or texts written by other people, have instructed you to.

And just so YOU know, my own mother was an atheist, as currently is my on grandmother, when she married my father. She was extremely irked when my Dad tried to get her to join him in neighborhood Bible studies. Nowadays, my mother speaks PASSIONATELY about the stories in the Bible. I ask one or two questions, and she explains to me with great enthusiasm. I can't help but find all of it awe inspiring.

I've already stated my opinion on atheism: it is equally as delusional as baseless faith. It's a faith or assertion that God doesn't exist, which I believe no human can know for sure without a deity presenting itself, which I have yet to see in my lifetime.

My own father told me that nobody could ever force me to believe something, and whatever I believed was my choice. I've made my choice of my own freewill. This "indoctrination" crap is just another excuse for atheists to validate their opinions that anyone religious must be an ignorant nut, and can only be religious because they were told to be. I say you people stop trying to totally invalidate our opinions by spreading this bull****. And it's not that I don't comprehend what you're saying, so don't bother trying to reiterate so my "teeny tiny underdeveloped religious brain" can understand it.

Even if your father was more open-minded and more free about your religious pursuits, Christianity is pushed on all westerners from birth, even if your family isn't Christian. At least in the US, mentions of the bible, "God," are on our public buildings, on our money, in our previously enforced pledge of allegiance, formerly in enforced school prayer--you see Churches and people worshipping.. Even if your parents didn't force you to go to Church, and they went themselves--you inherently deeply trust your parents and are very influenced by their views.

And I have every right to show offense to things as disgusting as what Sub tried to say. I just find it incredible that you can pass judgement on every religious person and say that they're essentially dirt, and that their opinions don't matter, and then call yourselves the pinnacle of virtue and morality.

I can't speak for Sub. I don't find religious people offensive or stupid. I think it's unfortunate that most of them have basically been brainwashed by their parents and communities.

If you look at numbers, people with higher intelligence and education are much less likely to be religious. The more education, the more secular they lean. It's also why less advanced, sophistocated countries (especially in the Middle East, Asia and Africa) tend to be more religious, and war over it constantly.