Mosque at Ground Zero

[Chakra-X]

If the majority of the Muslims/Middle Eastern people I see are rioting/in mug shots, and I see a Middle Eastern looking guy at a Wal-Mart, those images are going to pop up. This could be said with urban-looking black people, country-looking white people, etc. I think that's just how humans process information.

Buuuuuuuuut people need to be smart enough to look past perception. And honestly it can be very hard for some people to look beyond the isolated images when all they see are extremist Muslims on TV and movies. That's why a positive and open ended Muslim-backed community center would be welcomed diversion from the "flag burning muslim" image that runs so rampant.

Shoot I'll even admit when I read that someone was trying to build a Mosque on *Ground Zero*, I was like "", but then I was like "=]". I am not surprised that people would react negatively toward it, but ultimately the RIGHT decision would be to understand this is a Muslim center, not an extremist center. I forget who but the comparison to Christian-backed centers (YMCAs I thought were Christian backed?) works. I personally would like religion detached from such institutions but it's a nice community that's not trying to tell gays to go to hell (like an Extremist Christian Community Center would), but just wants everyone to have a good time.

And I'll trust Zeo about the opinion of New Yorkers. But now, being from the Philadelphia area, I have this irrational desire to bad talk your city despite it being legitimately better a number of aspects. I'm watching you, buddy.

Er, and the whole "the world is ****ed" pessimism/realism, whatever you want to call it, that's nice. Careful with that though (this is not addressed to anyone in particular), I've seen people on this forum and in person that actively believe this and come off as jaded, snarky, and sometimes just an unpleasant. Like this 'edgy' filmaker at my school. Congrats for getting "the big picture" and knowing how the world *really* works, but you're still an *******. There are kids starving in India while I get to go to college for animation. Unfair, but I have my own life to worry about. There would be time and money needed to help those kids *in China*, then the kids in Africa (UGH that entire continent has been ****ed since colonization ), then the poor in Europe, the drug cartels in Mexico, the poor state of living in South American countries, or hell let's not forget the ****ty, dangerous, opportunity-lacking inner cities of America.

But these are just words. Am I part of the problem for not volunteering? Looking at these horrors on TV and saying "that's a shame" while I go back to playing my PS3? I'm going to admit I am not willing to sacrifice my relative "luxuries" because I only have a finite amount of time on this planet and I want to make it the best that I can make it.


I miss threads like these . I mean yeah a lot of the arguments could still be fiery-wait no, **** that, I'll use my own term-"sexy spicy". Yeah. A lot of arguments here could be sexy spicy without the snarkiness, but there's too much internet condescension. Or is there too much internet condensation? It's one of those. Maybe it's the latter. Yall are slippery. Got too much drops of water coming out of ya. But I digress.

 

[J-Dude]

What I oppose about this isn't moderate Muslims (though in a lot of cases, that "moderate" bit is bull****, as I've seen so-called moderates make death threats or simply act neutrally towards the acts of their extreme brethren) it's the fact that no matter what, this will spark rage on the American side and be seen by the extremists either as some kind of victory, or as a mockery for Muslims to be condoning Western values. The odds of a place like this not begin heavily vandalized one way or another are extreme.

Also, let's not forget, these extremists aren't hard to find. We've all seen those mobs who burn flags and chant for the blood of any and all critics. They represent a significant percentage of Muslims.

Forgive me if I feel a bit zealous over this. It was bad enough hearing the guys who threatened the South Park creators were from New York city. I've been following that debate very closely, along with the vids posted by Thunderf00t on the matter. I even contributed to "Draw Muhammad" day.

 

[Zeonix]

@Devon: Do you know what's going to be near that mosque? The Freedom Tower. If we want to go the propaganda route, at ground level will exist an islamic community center, and towering above it is a symbol of America's supremacy and its capitalistic and imperialistic ambitions. What more could you ask for?

As for bringing muslims and everyone else a little closer, I think allowing muslims to help rebuild the city their renegade brothers destroyed is apt. There is no better **** you to extremists than to have real muslims fuel the machine with their money and energy, and have all of it directed to letting steel rain fall from the sky.

Now, this isn't my perspective, but it may be an easier pill to swallow for some folks if they see it this way.

@ J-Dude: You're confusing extremist muslims who call themselves moderate with actual moderate muslims in much the same way non-americans sometimes confuse extremists christians/crazy people in general with the average American, and it's a little unfair considering there are about 1.57 billion muslims in the world.

The odds of this place being vandalized by bigots is high if everyone chooses to standby and allow it to happen. At the very least, local law enforcement will be on the job and they're desperate for real assignments. Not a good day for vandals to say the least.

Once more, you're using extremist and muslim interchangeably and it's unfair. Dude in the middle east burning an American flag? Not automatically an extremist; not automatically muslim. Even if the latter is the case, it still doesn't make him/her an extremist. There are plenty of reasons to hate America, and religion isn't necessarily the primary reason. If a significant portion of middle easterners hate America, it's probably due to the fact that we've meddled in the lives of a significant number of middle easterners in a significant number of countries. Action to reaction/consequence and all that.

The guy who threatened the South Park creators is named Joseph Cohen, and he's not entirely what he appears to be. Was he stirring the pot? Absolutely, but I question his motives considering his background. That's an entirely different story altogether, though.

I'm all about freedom of speech, but the "Draw Muhammed" day may have been a bit much. It wasn't just a **** you to extremists. It was a **** you to muslims everywhere, so the baby was kinda thrown out with the bath water. We're forcing our values (freedom to draw caricatures of religious figures) on a people who'd rather not, while demanding they stop forcing their values on us. Then again, it boils down to "you came to our country, so you play by our rules". Still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, though.

On that note, I'll be making my leave. Apparently, no one realized I was Zeo,or they forgot I was banned at some point, so they rebanned me yesterday. Good to go. Can't really get angry at that.

So.....It's been a pleasure, gents and a solid however many years.

Thanks for the discussion, Rocky. It's been awhile for me and I enjoyed it thoroughly. Hopefully you and everyone else with an opinion and the balls to voice it keep making threads like this so the forum looks like less of a graveyard.

 

[Pain]

I've been following that debate very closely, along with the vids posted by Thunderf00t on the matter.

You should watch his "Why do people laugh at creationists" series.

 

[Chakra-X]

Also, let's not forget, these extremists aren't hard to find. We've all seen those mobs who burn flags and chant for the blood of any and all critics. They represent a significant percentage of Muslims.

Careful with this. It's a fact that the large majority of Muslims are not the flag-burning, die Ameri-kan, kind. We see this a lot on the news yeah but that is only a snapshot of a people consisting of about 1.2 *billion*, around 22% of Earth's population. That's a lot of people and no matter how many interviews or news stories there are, you are not going to get a completely accurate picture of the Muslim faith.

I could look on the news and see a lot of angry white people calling Obama Hitler, venting irrational fears about the government taking over our lives, and running around with "God loves dead soldiers" signs and come to a conclusion that a "significant" percentage of white people are violently paranoid. I'm just saying be careful with what you perceive and what is fact.

A lot of the worries here are worst case scenarios. I am all for "hoping for the best, plan for the worst", I do it all the time, and yeah if this thing gets built there will be backlash that may materialize, but **** anyone that would because if we go by the "Founding American Values" the same type of people who would be hostile toward this jack off to, we would embrace such an institution.

 

[Avenger]

@J-Dude:

I'm pretty sure you know your share of fundamentalist Christians (a freaky amount of which are what I'd call extremist in their views), and that you really shouldn't be pointing your finger at moderate Muslims who don't directly oppose extremist Muslims. I mean, when did you ever stand up to your fellow Christians to tell them that they are bat-**** crazy? It's just not polite.

 

[J-Dude]

I absolutely disagree that "Draw Muhammad Day" goes too far. It's struck such a blow that the entire nation of Pakistan blocked Youtube and Facebook.

I happen to be extremely proud of how Americans and believers in free-speech have handled all this, using ideas and peaceful protest to dis-empower terrorism for the first time in my living memory.

But at the end of the day, I hope they lash out, and collectively piss off the world to such a degree that we stop being spineless pussies, march in, and put a final end to the ridiculousness that is theocracy. The world would be better off. The extremists and backwards nature of the area are a product of their surroundings. We destroy the idea of a religion forming the laws of the land, and in a few mere generations, stability will follow. They will begin to apply reason to their religion and decipher the reasonable from the unreasonable. They will be Muslim, complete with their rich cultures, without being so trapped in the past.

We have been criticized so often for meddling, as if to say it is their right to ensure Barbary is learned hand-in-hand with learning to look both ways when you cross the street. Theocracy is evil, it does not work or contribute to our future, and it is poisonous to its people. And most important of all, the nations that employ it are militarily weak. They can be subjugated and improved by international mandate with little working opposition. And their later generations will thank us on bended knee for delivering their ancestors kicking and screaming from the darkness and into the light.

I'm pretty sure you know your share of fundamentalist Christians (a freaky amount of which are what I'd call extremist in their views), and that you really shouldn't be pointing your finger at moderate Muslims who don't directly oppose extremist Muslims. I mean, when did you ever stand up to your fellow Christians to tell them that they are bat-**** crazy? It's just not polite.

I criticize my fellow "Christians" plenty, even if I don't share it with you. They're much of the reason I'm done with the Republican party. Catholicism gives us a bad name, and then most of the others are still so keen on shoving our faith down another's throat. I have to clarify myself as a rational person every time I mention my own Christianity in another forum anymore, and tell them I very much desire that the laws of man's world be ruled by reason alone.

 

[Pain]

I have to clarify myself as a rational person every time I mention my own Christianity

You can believe in magic and still be rational? Just sayin'.

 

[najeeb]

you guys have a wrong idea about muslims . alqaida and taliban are not muslims , the 9/11 was blamed on muslims . in the holy quran in the verse 9/11 warnings have been givin to muslims that they will be blamed for certian things , the verse number corrosponds with the date , how ever muslims teach peace . muslims donot thret to kill if a person makes a art of hazrat Muhammad (s-a-w) . IT IS ALSO not allowed in islam , muslims are tought peace and harmony . moderate muslims are not like that , extremest people are actuaaly illitrate/ or false muslims like the alquaida . stop blaming muslims for things they didnt do . the world trade centre was not destroyed by muslims , there where plans to demolish it if the plane hit on the top then where the hell the smoke come from the ground one second before hitting , also all asians died no amerecian died . yes i am a muslim and i know my teachings , we are tought to be polite and mercy full . this thred is entirely use less .

 

[Pain]

you guys have a wrong idea about muslims . alqaida and taliban are not muslims , the 9/11 was blamed on muslims . in the holy quran in the verse 9/11 warnings have been givin to muslims that they will be blamed for certian things , the verse number corrosponds with the date , how ever muslims teach peace . muslims donot thret to kill if a person makes a art of hazrat Muhammad (s-a-w) . IT IS ALSO not allowed in islam , muslims are tought peace and harmony . moderate muslims are not like that , extremest people are actuaaly illitrate/ or false muslims like the alquaida . stop blaming muslims for things they didnt do . the world trade centre was not destroyed by muslims , there where plans to demolish it if the plane hit on the top then where the hell the smoke come from the ground one second before hitting , also all asians died no amerecian died . yes i am a muslim and i know my teachings , we are tought to be polite and mercy full . this thred is entirely use less .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Two seconds of googling on that second one.

Also lol @ 9/11 was an inside job bullcrap
And lol @ only asians died in the attack?

For that ignorance I share this with you.

 

[Grega]

you guys have a wrong idea about muslims . alqaida and taliban are not muslims , the 9/11 was blamed on muslims . in the holy quran in the verse 9/11 warnings have been givin to muslims that they will be blamed for certian things , the verse number corrosponds with the date , how ever muslims teach peace . muslims donot thret to kill if a person makes a art of hazrat Muhammad (s-a-w) . IT IS ALSO not allowed in islam , muslims are tought peace and harmony . moderate muslims are not like that , extremest people are actuaaly illitrate/ or false muslims like the alquaida . stop blaming muslims for things they didnt do . the world trade centre was not destroyed by muslims , there where plans to demolish it if the plane hit on the top then where the hell the smoke come from the ground one second before hitting , also all asians died no amerecian died . yes i am a muslim and i know my teachings , we are tought to be polite and mercy full . this thred is entirely use less .

While its true that its not the muslims that destroyed the WTC its allso true that the ignorant masses dont know the difference. Nor do they want to know the difference because its way easier to simply point a finger at something or someone and let it/them take the blame instead of actually using their heads to think.

If you follow this thread you should notice that noone here is blaming muslims, people only state that the average Joe thinks like that and there is a lot of those average Joe kinds of people. Which in term might cause trouble.

 

[Zeonix]

I absolutely disagree that "Draw Muhammad Day" goes too far. It's struck such a blow that the entire nation of Pakistan blocked Youtube and Facebook.

Yeah, that's a huge blow. Let's give governments more reasons to block information, ultimately making it easier for their respective populations to be controlled and manipulated by state-sponsored media. Also, let's anger the one nation we need assistance from to have some semblance of victory in Afghanistan. This will surely foster better and more cooperative relations between our two nations.

I happen to be extremely proud of how Americans and believers in free-speech have handled all this, using ideas and peaceful protest to dis-empower terrorism for the first time in my living memory.

You haven't disempowered terrorism. You may have irritated them, strengthened their resolve and made moderate muslims feel like you're blaming them for something they had no part in, but terrorists are still terrorizing. IEDs are still being planted on the roads. Suicide bombers are still killing themselves and everyone within a 100m radius. Al Qaeda is still functioning. The Taliban is still....Talibanning.

But at the end of the day, I hope they lash out, and collectively piss off the world to such a degree that we stop being spineless pussies, march in, and put a final end to the ridiculousness that is theocracy. The world would be better off. The extremists and backwards nature of the area are a product of their surroundings. We destroy the idea of a religion forming the laws of the land, and in a few mere generations, stability will follow. They will begin to apply reason to their religion and decipher the reasonable from the unreasonable. They will be Muslim, complete with their rich cultures, without being so trapped in the past.

What's going to happen when they lash out? We're going to continue dropping bombs on everyone we perceive to be an enemy? Hoorah! Because that's been working out for us so well. Do you know what makes it easy for extremists to come into power? Us destroying legitimate governments for our benefit and installing puppet leaders. Remember when Iran had a democratically elected leader? No? Well, we're the reason the Ayatollah is in power now. We installed the Shah (at the UK's behest), people said **** that, a crazy took advantage of their anger, used it to his benefit, focused it on forming his own government, and won. Bam. Ayatollah and Achsamdnsajdhasdasdjsadjad. Amazing how we create our own enemies.

We have been criticized so often for meddling, as if to say it is their right to ensure Barbary is learned hand-in-hand with learning to look both ways when you cross the street. Theocracy is evil, it does not work or contribute to our future, and it is poisonous to its people. And most important of all, the nations that employ it are militarily weak. They can be subjugated and improved by international mandate with little working opposition. And their later generations will thank us on bended knee for delivering their ancestors kicking and screaming from the darkness and into the light.

Theocracy is evil. That's why we need to focus on cleaning up our own house first. How many times have christian extremists called America a Christian nation founded on Christian values? How many times have they attempted to take political office in order to change the laws to suit their views of the world? How many times have we stalled scientifically because a bunch of fundamentalists decided research into X was an affront to God? Too many, and it's still happening. I don't feel the need to meddle in other countries, because I'm the one they're going to send to fight on the ground. Thanks, but no thanks. When we have a legitimate war, I'm all for it, but I'm tired of this nation building bs. It isn't our place to dismantle every government in the world and replace it with something similar to ours, especially when one considers how corrupt and ineffective our system is.

I criticize my fellow "Christians" plenty, even if I don't share it with you. They're much of the reason I'm done with the Republican party. Catholicism gives us a bad name, and then most of the others are still so keen on shoving our faith down another's throat. I have to clarify myself as a rational person every time I mention my own Christianity in another forum anymore, and tell them I very much desire that the laws of man's world be ruled by reason alone.

And moderate Muslims criticize their fellow "Muslims" plenty, even if they don't care to share it with you. Keep in mind that at one point, the Muslim Empire was the most scientifically advanced Empire in the world. Once we (Western World) started ****ing with their ****, and the crazies took over, things went downhill. We really aren't all that different. Hell, half the world hates America for that very reason. We should, at the very least, learn from their mistakes before attempting to "correct" them.

I honestly don't understand the notion that it's our place and right as America to do whatever we like, force our values on anyone we wish and destroy anyone who resists. I don't know what it stems from, but it needs to stop unless we're intent on going the way of the British Empire, and basically every other Empire that ever existed in under 300 years.

 

[J-Dude]

Y'know what? **** you, you people can drag your feet all you like, but just go **** yourself.

Yeah, sorry, but I think I can remember United Flight 93. Those dudes kept shouting "God is great" as they nose-dived the plan into the ground, and I think "Holy War", speaks for itself.

I'm sick of this asinine bull**** double standard that behaves like Americans have to be the ****ing scapegoat to everything. This time, WE'RE the ones in the ****ing right.

And by the way, I didn't say it was our place, I said it was the WORLD'S place to actually subjugate these sub-human dog-****ing theocracies, and not act like there's nothing we can do about it. Oh, they don't like it? We've made them not like that? Who gives a rat's ass? What can they POSSIBLY do? They are outnumbered and outgunned a million to one, and the few guns they send are paragons of ineptitude.

Free speech forever, freedom forever, be-damned the consequences.

 

[Zeonix]

Y'know what? **** you, you people can drag your feet all you like, but just go **** yourself.

Yeah, sorry, but I think I can remember United Flight 93. Those dudes kept shouting "God is great" as they nose-dived the plan into the ground, and I think "Holy War", speaks for itself.

I'm sick of this asinine bull**** double standard that behaves like Americans have to be the ****ing scapegoat to everything. This time, WE'RE the ones in the ****ing right.

And by the way, I didn't say it was our place, I said it was the WORLD'S place to actually subjugate these sub-human dog-****ing theocracies, and not act like there's nothing we can do about it. Oh, they don't like it? We've made them not like that? Who gives a rat's ass? What can they POSSIBLY do? They are outnumbered and outgunned a million to one, and the few guns they send are paragons of ineptitude.

Free speech forever, freedom forever, be-damned the consequences.

You're exactly the type of person I'm talking about when I say we need clean up our own house. You want to go fight everyone in the world? Fine. Sign up for the Army or Marine Corps right now, because I refuse to fight your battles for you.

 

[Pain]

This time, WE'RE the ones in the ****ing right.

Did Jesus tell you that?

 

[J-Dude]

Did Jesus tell you that?

No, Matt, Trey and Thunderf00t did. We shouldn't be shying away from our rights when THEY are the ones too immature as a people to react to satire and criticism in a civilized way. We will not stand for it anymore, and if they don't like it, they are welcome to come over and get their asses kicked.

 

[Zeonix]

Did Jesus tell you that?

@J-Dude: I guess other countries dont have the right to govern themselves however they choose without fear of a foreign nation ignoring their sovereignty and waging war based on contradictory morals and values, with a hint of religious extremism. I guess our rights supersede all others. That's cool, I guess.

When I'm in Afghanistan again, I'll be sure to tell the Taliban tales about you and your epic battle for freedom of speech (for you; no one else). That'll strike fear into their hearts.

 

[Avenger]

I used to like Tfoot until he started his bull**** Pat Condell ripoff. It makes me sad that he's sunk this low for ratings.

 

[Pain]

What makes him a Condell ripoff? Because he's talking about islam now?

 

[Avenger]

He was never this aggressive before he started getting paid for his videos.