Mosque at Ground Zero

[Pain]

Everytime free speech comes up he's always that fervent about it. Goes back to the false DMCA attempts to take down his (and others) videos.

 

[Grega]

We shouldn't be shying away from our rights when THEY are the ones too immature as a people to react to satire and criticism in a civilized way.

They dont like hat you are saying about them and protest about it and you want to kick their ass. Yea really mature. Freedom of speach is one thing, but disrespecting people is another. Yes you are alowed to say waht you want, but if you say something that disrespects something other people believe in you should get a smack in the face. Then again with all the freedoms you advertise the US is pretty damn fast to strip people of their rights for being the wrong nationality. It happened during WW2 it happened during the Vietnam war and its happening now. Just cause they are of the wrong nationality or have the wrong skin colour they get stripped of all those damn freedoms you are talking about no matter if they are the first generation living in america or the tenth. They are seen as outsiders just because the ethnological group they belong to is not acting how you dictate it. And when i say america i mean people who are to damn stuborn to think for themselves and only act as the personal dog of your own government throwing round and wiggling their tails by the masters command like some kind of brainless puppets.

So dont come round with bull**** like that. Its exactly those views that make the US seem like the Bully thats picking on the rest of the world.

 

[J-Dude]

**** you, yet again. I'm tired of this mamby-pamby crap that tries to act as if it should be another nation's right to have laws that condone unambiguously barbaric treatment. This is the 21st century. Don't we have some kind of international code for human rights? How is it in this day and age, that we can still have countries that treat women as 2nd class, or force you to follow the laws of a religion?

No, don't talk to me like that, I won't ****ing stand for it. If the world is ever going to move forward, the cancerous bits need to be cut. The questions of "is free speech a good thing?", "should everyone be treated equally?", and "should religion influence man-made laws?" are not to be debated, these things are not something to be questioned. These things are truth, they are basic rights, and it is not to be questioned they should be abided by all. Saying otherwise backslides into the abyss. Should America enforce such things? It's not our personal obligation, but it certainly is the civilized world's obligation. And if nobody else is man enough, we may as well.

Customs and traditions, within reason, are what we should tolerate. WITHIN REASON. And tolerating what is NOT reasonable, is akin to letting and passing by a bleeding man as he dies on the floor, in tolerance of his right not to exist.

 

[-Origin]

Remember when this thread didn't have cursing in it?

I enjoyed it way more back then. Those were good times.

 

[Zeonix]

**** you, yet again. I'm tired of this mamby-pamby crap that tries to act as if it should be another nation's right to have laws that condone unambiguously barbaric treatment. This is the 21st century. Don't we have some kind of international code for human rights? How is it in this day and age, that we can still have countries that treat women as 2nd class, or force you to follow the laws of a religion?

No, don't talk to me like that, I won't ****ing stand for it. If the world is ever going to move forward, the cancerous bits need to be cut. The questions of "is free speech a good thing?", "should everyone be treated equally?", and "should religion influence man-made laws?" are not to be debated, these things are not something to be questioned. These things are truth, they are basic rights, and it is not to be questioned they should be abided by all. Saying otherwise backslides into the abyss. Should America enforce such things? It's not our personal obligation, but it certainly is the civilized world's obligation. And if nobody else is man enough, we may as well.

Customs and traditions, within reason, are what we should tolerate. WITHIN REASON. And tolerating what is NOT reasonable, is akin to letting and passing by a bleeding man as he dies on the floor, in tolerance of his right not to exist.

And once more, I point you in the direction of your country of origin. All of these things apply to us because, while we claim to uphold these values, beneath the surface we ignore them as much as possible, and when upholding them is least convenient.

Women as 2nd class citizens? They still don't get paid the same as men in America.

Disregard for human rights? Do I even need to bother? Besides the obvious torturing angle, what do you think all of that DU we used in the invasion of Iraq is going to do to its inhabitants? Here's a hint:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE5B01I320091201

Although, to be fair, our right to impose our will on all others supersedes any and all rights lesser civilizations might have. Obviously.

Equal treatment for all? Again, women aren't exactly treated the same as men in the workplace. Then we have the whole "all muslims are bad, there's no such thing as a moderate muslim" tirade found in this thread. We have the "Brown people from down south are takin our jerbs" and the "black people are going to rob me, I should cross the street" angles, and the blah blah blah blah. Yeah, we're not equal in the states. Not yet. I didn't realize just how widespread racism was until I joined the Marine Corps, and it's disgusting. These people aren't aberrations in their respective towns and cities, either. They're the way they are because it's the norm for them.

Again, if you want to go out there and change the world, switch out the governments and defeat the evil doers of the world, by all means, take my job. It isn't what I signed up for, but you seem more than willing so have at it.

Also, little sidenote. Stop with the **** yous. I don't know when that became acceptable, but I'm not going to tolerate it for much longer. I'm being awfully polite about your bigotry and ignorance of how the world works. Do me the favor of responding in kind.

 

[Darth Revan]

I think this thread Should Be closed Now it seems to be getting Out of controle

 

[Damaera]

I wonder if we're ever going to have a thread like this without anybody getting angry and/or throwing insults.

 

[Zeonix]

I think this thread Should Be closed Now it seems to be getting Out of controle

Or the one person losing control could correct himself or be reprimanded. As was the case long ago.

 

[Pain]

Women as 2nd class citizens? They still don't get paid the same as men in America.

I'd like to point out that this is not true.

 

[Brosiris]

It's also not an entire fallacy either. My fathers wife used to be in management for huge company and made something like 2,000 dollars USD less than the guy right under her. And if I recall correctly, she makes less than most men in her current job.

I'm not saying it's true for every woman in America. I make less than the girl at my job, and I'm also her senior. However, I do know there are women out there who make less then men.

 

[Zeonix]

I'd like to point out that this is not true.

Depends where you go for the statistics, although the consensus now is if a woman stays unmarried and focuses solely on her job, she will make equal to or greater than the average male in the same occupation.

 

[J-Dude]

Oh please, shut it will you. There are no more ore less domestic problems in the US than in any other country. But any slights and technicalities we might have in more or less a country where you needn't fear having your hand lobbed off pale in comarison to the Middle East. These people suffer and don't even know it, brainwashed into thinking they've got it made somehow. I'm sure there are more good guys out there than bad ones, but the ratio is alarming. It's all a matter of priority. Even the instability in many African nations more or less confines itself to it's own nation. When things go bad in the Middle East, everyone has to duck.

I never said the Muslim religion was bad, no more than mine in fact. I know Muslims, they're cool, they're rational. You'll have your extremists in any case, but if the Puritan villages predating America are any more of an indicator than the entire Middle East, we know nothing good EVER comes from a theocracy, and things will be better for everyone if it is snuffed out. You'll need only a few generations for things to calm down, though undoubtedly you'll have resistance to the new way of doing things. It has to get worse before it gets better. And once the dust settles, the list of things to fear in the world will be drastically reduced. These places aren't only Theocracies either, they're dictatorships. There's no such thing as a good dictatorship, and there is no such thing as a great nation that doesn't give you freedom. So there are still some racists here, so there are still wage disputes? That's beside the point. The point is we can protest them, we can act against them, we can make our nation better, by acting upon the freedom to apply our reason, without worrying about the polticians silencing us, or the thought police making our families disappear.

THEY CAN'T

Their politicians use dirty tricks to keep themselves in power, don't tolerate disagreement and likely quote their own scripture out of context to further a personal agenda. This shouldn't happen anywhere. Yes, Bush, our soldiers, they seriously ****ed up in places, although I can't judge them, not knowing what it's like to fill their shoes. But given the big-bads don't have some half-assed coup after we file out completely, given a decade or two, Iraq may well be a better place for them.

Again I say, everyone should be entitled to their freedom. That is worth fighting and dying for. I say to Hell with anyone that thinks that giving people freedom can ever be negative for them. And on that note, I'm done discussing this. That's my stance.

 

[Zeonix]

Oh please, shut it will you.

You want to silence me, but freedom of speech for everyone? Gotcha. Definitely not a hypocrite.

There are no more ore less domestic problems in the US than in any other country. But any slights and technicalities we might have in more or less a country where you needn't fear having your hand lobbed off pale in comarison to the Middle East. These people suffer and don't even know it, brainwashed into thinking they've got it made somehow. I'm sure there are more good guys out there than bad ones, but the ratio is alarming. It's all a matter of priority. Even the instability in many African nations more or less confines itself to it's own nation. When things go bad in the Middle East, everyone has to duck.

Most developed countries aren't trying to rewrite history textbooks to fit their religious and political ideologies, either. Do you know what state is? Texas. Because, like extremists, they're ****ing crazy. But we're going to leave these guys to their own devices, allow them to pollute and brainwash the minds of the youth, and try to fix somewhere else. Good to go. Roger that.

There are no more ore less domestic problems in the US than in any other country.

These people suffer and don't even know it, brainwashed into thinking they've got it made somehow.

Couldn't have said it better myself, kiddo.

I never said the Muslim religion was bad, no more than mine in fact. I know Muslims, they're cool, they're rational. You'll have your extremists in any case, but if the Puritan villages predating America are any more of an indicator than the entire Middle East, we know nothing good EVER comes from a theocracy, and things will be better for everyone if it is snuffed out. You'll need only a few generations for things to calm down, though undoubtedly you'll have resistance to the new way of doing things. It has to get worse before it gets better. And once the dust settles, the list of things to fear in the world will be drastically reduced. These places aren't only Theocracies either, they're dictatorships. There's no such thing as a good dictatorship, and there is no such thing as a great nation that doesn't give you freedom. So there are still some racists here, so there are still wage disputes? That's beside the point. The point is we can protest them, we can act against them, we can make our nation better, by acting upon the freedom to apply our reason, without worrying about the polticians silencing us, or the thought police making our families disappear.

You haven't said Islam is bad with those words, but you've said the majority of muslims are extremists, and you seem to hate extremists and what they preach....so....I'm going to go ahead and connect the dots. Saying you're friends with Muslims doesn't somehow make you not a bigot, btw. That's similar to the "Hey, I don't hate [insert N-word]. My best friend is black!" Yeah, okay.

You're responding as if I said I fully support theocracies. In case you haven't figured it out, I absolutely hate organized religion, and so it doesn't take much to infer that I hate a government run on religious principles. You're missing the point. It isn't our job to correct the world. We have not been assigned that duty by the rest of the world. We have not received anyone's permission to be Team America: World Police. Though you may disagree with everything a nation stands for, you owe them the right and the freedom to make their own decisions and govern themselves however they like. It's only when we're physically threatened by a regime that they forfeit their right to exist peacefully. Until that happens, we stand by. A bunch of crazies threatening us isn't the same as a government threatening us, either, so don't try to draw parallels.

THEY CAN'T

Their politicians use dirty tricks to keep themselves in power, don't tolerate disagreement and likely quote their own scripture out of context to further a personal agenda. This shouldn't happen anywhere. Yes, Bush, our soldiers, they seriously ****ed up in places, although I can't judge them, not knowing what it's like to fill their shoes. But given the big-bads don't have some half-assed coup after we file out completely, given a decade or two, Iraq may well be a better place for them.

As an American, I'm not familiar with the practice of politicians lying and being deceitful to gain and maintain power. Please explain this concept to me.

You know who else quotes scripture out of context? Yeah you do! Do you know who quotes their constitution out of context, while fabricating entire parts of it? Yeah, you do. Perhaps Europe needs to perform some corrective measures on us. I mean, what nation has been at war more or less since the end of WW2? Yeah, you know. Of course, I'm being pedantic.

Again I say, everyone should be entitled to their freedom. That is worth fighting and dying for. I say to Hell with anyone that thinks that giving people freedom can ever be negative for them. And on that note, I'm done discussing this. That's my stance.

That's all well and good, but you say you support those things in one breath, and then you say you want to destroy governments the world over in the next. When you do more than simply say freedom is worth fighting and dying for, I'll take you seriously. Until then, you're just another chickenhawk.

You know what brings about all the freedoms we claim to value? Some form of democracy. You know what doesn't help democracies form naturally? Forcing an unwilling population to bow down to your rule and your principles. Democracies need to grow organically, much like it is in Iran. See how pissed off the general populace is? See how they take to the streets and riot? See how they want change? Yeah, when we interfere without their permission, all of that goes away and they're back to square one, in much the same way they went back to square one after we dismantled their democracy the first time.

 

[Prozac]

Depends where you go for the statistics, although the consensus now is if a woman stays unmarried and focuses solely on her job, she will make equal to or greater than the average male in the same occupation.

Oh people are going to dislike me for saying this but..
If you look at it fairly, women should be payed less, as they have a higher "risk" of not being able to work.
Statistically it checks out!

As for a more ontopic reply.
tdogg90, having this conversation with j-dude is nothing but a waste of your time. Your replies are good, your reasoning is solid, however J-dude won't accept them, as we won't accept his views. We are simply the products of our environment. The reason between us and J-Dude? When we were at a certain age, our parents explained to us that santa isn't real. Others keep up the myth, and you should not underestimate the power of indoctrination, ESPECIALLY on little children. Stuff becomes hardwired (for the lack of a better word) in their brain, and even if they do realize their mistake, it's hard to overcome.

It's also in peoples nature to always have an opinion ready concerning these matters but fail to take into account what's happening right under their noses.
If only it was easy to judge yourself and your own surroundings as it is to judge others.

 

[Zeonix]

Oh people are going to dislike me for saying this but..
If you look at it fairly, women should be payed less, as they have a higher "risk" of not being able to work.
Statistically it checks out!

*cough*

I don't disagree.

But at the same time I do.

And so I'll have to agree to disagree to agree some of the time.

 

[Grega]

That last bit was confusing. I got lost in the second agree from the first disagree XD

In any case let me just count 2 times where a nation tried to "correct" the world.

1.) The dark ages and the "holy crusades"

2.) WW2

those are pretty much the best examples of so called "Correction"

You could throw in other stuff to like the colonization wars (and lets face it Africa would be a lot less ****ed up if it wasnt for those), you could also throw in the Vietnam war and ofcourse the Gulf war. But thats besides the topic in this thread.

So how about we get back to the topic and leave the political debates of why 1 country should have the right to rule the world to something else like instant messengers.

 

[J-Dude]

Here's the thing; I've barely as much as MENTIONED my being Christian, and when I did, I did so either to criticize members of my own religion that can't accept division of Church and State, or take a stab at how my own religion's earlier scriptures have equally Barbaric messages, which I content to have long done away with for the sake of reason...and I'm still getting personal sniping regarding my religion?? What more do you people want of me, my ****ing soul?? I'm a Christian, DEAL WITH IT! I'm also an opponent to anti-gay legislation and have serious verbal throw-downs with people who use the word "******" in a homophobic context.

Also, no, I'm not a bigot for seeing all that goes on over there and having less and less faith in the notion that this live-fire version of "Lord of the Flies" is going to right itself of it's own accord. I don't know what became of Iran, but I doubt even if their election went the way they wanted that they're any keener on changing their government so it revolves around the needs of all people instead of the needs of Allah. Show me proof of that, I'll observe in interest. But thus far all I've seen is a time-warp centered around the 15th century, repeated over and over like a broken record. And for the record, anytime I see an obvious Muslim on the streets, I might take notice, since they're rarer to come across, but I never assume anything about Muslims who live in the United States.

As to the America bashing, I'm weary of hearing it. It's totally overblown in proportion to how much the world media points its cameras at us, like a microscope. We have no more troubles as a people and as a country than any of our allies or critics; we're just fashionable to rag on and blame for the world's ills as people sidestep their own problems. And of course, because you can ***** at America and mostly get no reaction back. Despite having the most powerful military in the history of creation, we don't send so much as a rock in the general direction of our detractors, which is more than I can say for a lot of countries spread across the planet.

In short, you douchebags who have more of a problem with ME and my RELIGION and the fact that I HAVE a religion than what I actually have to contribute, stop beating around the bush and just be up-front for once. Just tell me you hate my guts for being religious or for being tired of the international status quo and far more interested in seeing some real problems solved than sitting around pretending that some people can actually be reached by the snail-like dance of diplomacy. At the very least it'll make it easier to add certain people to my ignore list for being high-and-mighty, pretend-to-know-betters who try to suggest they're in their 30's or something (yeah sure, there are really working adults with jobs that matter visiting a forum for a Dragonball Z Half Life mod; happens all the time in between bouts of Farmville) or else like they're Harvard graduates in the realms of physics, anthropology and sociology.

 

[Grega]

OK first of all im religious. Raised as a christian i am a believer in God. I dont hate you or your religion. But i dont agree with your views. Yes every country has problems but the reason people are bashing america isnt because its easier to point and rant. Its because the US is in fact acting like a bully. If a nation doesnt share its views itll have to prepare for consequences. That or if it just isnt usefull in its current state.

Take China for example. The US and China are best of friends and do you even know what sorts of inhumane things are going on in China? Its got nothing to do with justice or being humane. Its just about being usefull for the government. Heck The US and Iraq were best of friends to untill Saddam began ignoring the US. Its only then that the US attacked on false charges even.

Now if youll excuse me its sunday morning and time to get to the church. If you want to cintinue this with me and Zeo we can easily set up a conversation over MSN or any other program of your choosing. But youll have to wait till i get back.

 

[J-Dude]

I've never been for our relations with China. I want our manufacturing back the Hell HERE. Most of what you mention is a direct result of the damn corporate/rich coup that took place under Reagan's regime. That patsy of a president took his orders from Merrill Lynch, and single-handedly gave ultimate control to the super-rich, who made a thousand short-term budget cuts that annihilated our ability to export. My hope now is for the evidence that Obama is genuinely not another paid flunky and actually wants to do some good around here. Nearly all our jobs are sedentary so we become morbidly obese from lack of necessary exertion, and God only knows how many jobs are sold wholesale to the Chinese. I'm hoping part of his guaranteed four years go to providing serious incentive for building here, or serious discouragement from going elsewhere. You want the US economy to flourish again? Lets bring back the best working parts the 50's had to offer.

Also...Zeo?

That ******* with the unicorn tag?

I thought he left, is he under a different name now? Who is he, his ass is so on ignore...

 

[Grega]

Sorry theres a lot of talk about Zeo lately so i kinda put his name there by accident. Didnt even notice untill you told me >.<