Left 4 Dead 2

[Spunky]

It's new in almost every way... The core gameplay is the same, but if you sit down and actually play the game (which I'm going to assume you haven't done), there's character development and a pseudo-storyline to be found. The campaigns are linked together. The end of the first campaign is the beginning of the second campaign. The end of the second begins the third. It's an adventure. With the addition of the new special infected and "uncommon" infected (mudmen, clowns, etc.), there's more of a challenge to be found this time around. The game is a lot more polished than the first. This is what L4D should have been.

It's well worth the money, I haven't stopped playing since release. Of course, there's MELEE now! Nothing satisfies quite like taking an axe to a zombie's face. Melee + mass dismemberment = epic win. You could take out all of the other changes and additions and the melee alone would still make this a worthy buy. Realism mode is awesome too when playing with good people. It can be frustratingly difficult with bad people though.

Left 4 Dead 2 is a worthy sequel and at no point comes across as a game that should have been released as a downloadable expansion to the original.

http://g4tv.com/games/xbox-360/61952/Left-4-Dead-2/review/

 

[-Origin]

I agree with everything Spunky just said and linked. L4D2 is awesome.

 

[Pain]

G4 also gave MW2, Halo 2, 3, and ODST a 5/5. Not to get on a review site rant here, but G4 is very obviously part of the brainless hype machine.

You'd be correct if you meant that I haven't played the full game. I have tried the demo though, and I wasn't impressed.

• The melee weapons are good when you get swarmed, but they all do the same thing, putting so many in is a gimmick.
  
• More firearms is good, no complaints there.
  
• Three new SI, good. I can't really speak about them because I haven't used them yet. I've only dealt with the bullet proof zombie, which I found to be more annoying than challenging.
  
• More maps, that's a given. The fact that they connect with each other is irrelevant.
  
• New characters was a pointless addition. Not only are they less likable than the previous ones, (I hear the woman is getting a lot of hate, as well as the hick), but the first group had plenty of development.

And while they don't count against the gameplay, I found the new music to be awful as well as the daylight maps.

So what have we got in reality here that's really extra? One melee weapon, some new guns, and a few more infected types. Seems like expansion content to me.

You could take out all of the other changes and additions and the melee alone would still make this a worthy buy.

Ok, well it's obvious from this that money doesn't matter to you. I can see why you don't mind paying full retail price for expansion content.

 

[Spunky]

It sounds to me like you just want to find things to hate about it. This is the first I've heard about anybody thinking any of that. Nobody I've played with (and this is what I've been playing the most since it was released) has had anything really bad to say about it. This sounds more like social dogma than constructive criticism.

 

[Pain]

If that's true, thankfully I don't have to look very hard. amirite?

In any event, the Steam L4D2 forums were full of complaints about the new characters. It's died down a bit since release, but I imagine a thread still pops up every now and then. Most of what I remember is about how the lady has no personality, and the guy is a stupid hick, and that the con man guy tries to be funny but isn't.

Just what I've read, not my personal opinion.

 

[sub]

Those sound like fairly accurate descriptions of the characters, but I haven't played a ton of L4D2.

I will say this, Pain - Based on what I've played, it is a good game that has a certain charm that the original lacked. Although the original had better characters, the dialog in the second is on the all better. It's worth picking up for 25 bucks if you don't want to pay 50, which it'll inevitably be.

 

[Spunky]

Try playing the game, you might be surprised.

 

[Pain]

Those sound like fairly accurate descriptions of the characters, but I haven't played a ton of L4D2.

I will say this, Pain - Based on what I've played, it is a good game that has a certain charm that the original lacked. Although the original had better characters, the dialog in the second is on the all better. It's worth picking up for 25 bucks if you don't want to pay 50, which it'll inevitably be.

Bingo. I don't think I ever said it's a bad game, only that it's not justifiable at such a high price. I am going to pick it up on the half-price weekend.

 

[Skyrider]

Good thing I'm getting it for free then, heh.

 

[Pain]

Good thing I'm getting it for free then, heh.

Explain.

 

[-Origin]

I really felt the need to reply to some of this.

[*]The melee weapons are good when you get swarmed, but they all do the same thing, putting so many in is a gimmick.

[*]More firearms is good, no complaints there.

How is putting in more firearms (which all .. you know.. shoot bullets?) different than putting in melee weapons? It's nice not to see everyone running around with the same weapons as it adds more diversity. Not only do all the new guns and all new melee weapons handle differently, they all have different kinds of impacts. A nightstick will not do the same kinds of damage as a fire axe will, for example. It's like choosing the shotgun over the uzi.

[*]Three new SI, good. I can't really speak about them because I haven't used them yet. I've only dealt with the bullet proof zombie, which I found to be more annoying than challenging.

Again, more diversity. I can honestly say that when playing on the higher difficulty levels, Uncommon Commons are very annoying and the new SI open up a whole new way of playing and dividing the survivors. There's some very interesting comments about them in the Developer Commentary, and the thoughts behind each's playstyle. The Riot Cop can only be killed from behind, the Clown is basically a mini-Boomer as he attracts all nearby zombies because of his squeaky shoes (which by itself is awesome), the Construction Worker is immune to pipebombs because of his earmuffs, and the CEDA Agents are immune to fire because of their hazard suit. And trust me, on Expert or Realism you do not want one of these zombie bastards zerg rushing you through your own molotov. And the Wandering Witch? Jesus, try getting through the Sugar Mill with 3 of these wandering around. I've never clenched harder.

[*]More maps, that's a given. The fact that they connect with each other is irrelevant.

How is that irrelevant? I actually played through the Campaign from the first to last scenario, and it's nice to know what happens and why exactly they're getting out of the helicopter they only just escaped in. Although it adds nothing to the gameplay, it's nice to see all campaigns being connected to each other. It makes the journey much more coherent.

[*]New characters was a pointless addition. Not only are they less likable than the previous ones, (I hear the woman is getting a lot of hate, as well as the hick), but the first group had plenty of development.

How can you say they're less likable? Getting hate? The woman I would agree with, she's very bland and has very little dialogue, from what I've heard in game. The "hick", on the other hand, might very well be the best thing L4D2 added. Ellis alone has more personality than all of L4D's survivors combined. Although I love L4D1, all I know is Bill is a Vietnam veteran, Francis just hates everything, Louis is grabbin' peels, and Zoey, well.. did she ever speak? Ellis has stories that make me stop running around, just so I can hear them. They're funny as hell. Coach has a bit of the father role going on, and comforts everyone constantly. As for Nick.. Oh man. If anyone here has seen the Dawn of the Dead Remake, Nick = Steve. He's arrogant, sarcastic and a complete bastard. I love him.

[/LIST]
And while they don't count against the gameplay, I found the new music to be awful as well as the daylight maps.

That's personal preference, I love the daylight maps and not being in the complete dark for a change.

So what have we got in reality here that's really extra? One melee weapon, some new guns, and a few more infected types. Seems like expansion content to me.

Now how many sequels do just that?

Doom 2 added new maps, new guns, new enemies.
Doom 3 added new graphics, new maps, new guns, new enemies.

Quake 2 added new graphics, new maps, new guns, new enemies.
Quake 3 removed the story, added new graphics, new maps, new guns, player enemies.
Quake 4 added a story, added new graphics, new maps, new guns, new enemies.

See where I'm going with this? What exactly is it you want from a sequal, then? A complete change of the gameplay that was established in the original? I'm kind of lost here.

 

[Pain]

How is putting in more firearms (which all .. you know.. shoot bullets?) different than putting in melee weapons? It's nice not to see everyone running around with the same weapons as it adds more diversity. Not only do all the new guns and all new melee weapons handle differently, they all have different kinds of impacts. A nightstick will not do the same kinds of damage as a fire axe will, for example. It's like choosing the shotgun over the uzi.

The firearms, while true they all shoot bullets, have different effective ranges and pros/cons. Melee has one range and one purpose, making every melee weapon effectively the same with the exception of damage, which ends up making the weaker melee weapons useless anyway.

Again, more diversity. I can honestly say that when playing on the higher difficulty levels, Uncommon Commons are very annoying and the new SI open up a whole new way of playing and dividing the survivors. There's some very interesting comments about them in the Developer Commentary, and the thoughts behind each's playstyle. The Riot Cop can only be killed from behind, the Clown is basically a mini-Boomer as he attracts all nearby zombies because of his squeaky shoes (which by itself is awesome), the Construction Worker is immune to pipebombs because of his earmuffs, and the CEDA Agents are immune to fire because of their hazard suit. And trust me, on Expert or Realism you do not want one of these zombie bastards zerg rushing you through your own molotov. And the Wandering Witch? Jesus, try getting through the Sugar Mill with 3 of these wandering around. I've never clenched harder.

Most of this stuff wasn't in the demo, and as such I can't really speak about it. I'm not saying the new infected types are useless.

How is that irrelevant? I actually played through the Campaign from the first to last scenario, and it's nice to know what happens and why exactly they're getting out of the helicopter they only just escaped in. Although it adds nothing to the gameplay, it's nice to see all campaigns being connected to each other. It makes the journey much more coherent.

It's a perk, sure, but I wouldn't be having any more or less fun knowing the campaigns were or weren't linked together, making it essentialy irrelevant.

How can you say they're less likable? Getting hate? The woman I would agree with, she's very bland and has very little dialogue, from what I've heard in game. The "hick", on the other hand, might very well be the best thing L4D2 added. Ellis alone has more personality than all of L4D's survivors combined. Although I love L4D1, all I know is Bill is a Vietnam veteran, Francis just hates everything, Louis is grabbin' peels, and Zoey, well.. did she ever speak? Ellis has stories that make me stop running around, just so I can hear them. They're funny as hell. Coach has a bit of the father role going on, and comforts everyone constantly. As for Nick.. Oh man. If anyone here has seen the Dawn of the Dead Remake, Nick = Steve. He's arrogant, sarcastic and a complete bastard. I love him.

As I mentioned, I didn't get enough exposure to the characters via the demo, but that critisism was leveled against them by many other people on the official L4D2 forums.

That's personal preference, I love the daylight maps and not being in the complete dark for a change.

Indeed, it is personal preference, which is why I added it in as an afterthought rather than in my general critisism of the game.

Now how many sequels do just that?

Doom 2 added new maps, new guns, new enemies.
Doom 3 added new graphics, new maps, new guns, new enemies.

Quake 2 added new graphics, new maps, new guns, new enemies.
Quake 3 removed the story, added new graphics, new maps, new guns, player enemies.
Quake 4 added a story, added new graphics, new maps, new guns, new enemies.

See where I'm going with this? What exactly is it you want from a sequal, then? A complete change of the gameplay that was established in the original? I'm kind of lost here.

Doom 2 and 3 were mainly single player games, and as such can justify sequels if the single player content can amount to its own full game. Not to mention the time scale by which the games were separated. By the way, you forgot to mention that Doom 3 had an expansion with much the same new content you've been listing. Difference being, the expansion came out about a year after release of the main game. Weird how that works, isn't it?

I can't speak to the Quake games as I am not familiar with them.

L4D is a mainly multi player game, and as such, sequels are a bit trickier. Releasing a new game so soon after the first is simply put, a **** move. Destroying the first game after only a year for a "sequel" with only a few new additions of content is not something I'm happy about, and that's the only thing I've ever tried to point out.

I can pick up Doom 2 to this day and still have the full experience I was meant to have. Try that with L4D1 in a few years, or hell, a few months.

 

[hleV]

Just played L4D2 demo. It's the same **** as L4D1.

 

[-Origin]

I don't know Pain, after seeing what L4D2 has to offer, also in terms of new Gameplay modes, I didn't mind paying the full price for it. I guess we can argue about this all we want but it basically boils down to, "Do I think all of this is worth 60 bucks?". And I do.

 

[Spunky]

The firearms, while true they all shoot bullets, have different effective ranges and pros/cons. Melee has one range and one purpose, making every melee weapon effectively the same with the exception of damage, which ends up making the weaker melee weapons useless anyway.

The melee weapons all handle differently. There are one-handed as well as two-handed weapons. With a frying pan, you can only really take out one zombie at a time, and it's nowhere near as satisfying as slicing open a stomach with a katana or fireaxe. You can slice open pretty much every part of the body, and it looks fantastic. With a katana, I can usually get two, sometimes three zombies at a time. With a fireaxe, I can almost always get three zombies at once, and the rest behind them get knocked back. With a chainsaw, forget it, they're all dead (with blood and dismemberment galore).

There's also dismemberment. I can shoot the arm off a zombie, and instead of this somehow killing it like in the first game, it will survive and continue to run after me. I was thrown off the first time dozen times it happened because I was used to firing and forgetting. Now I have to shoot until I see a body drop.

L4D is a mainly multi player game, and as such, sequels are a bit trickier. Releasing a new game so soon after the first is simply put, a **** move. Destroying the first game after only a year for a "sequel" with only a few new additions of content is not something I'm happy about, and that's the only thing I've ever tried to point out.

Except this is a true sequel. This doesn't feel like expansion content at all, it's an entirely new game. Even the demo felt like a genuinely new experience. At its core, sure, it was the same zombie-killing action I've grown to adore, but there's just no denying that everything they've added to it is for the better. I hear they had to completely rewrite a lot of things, like the AI director, to get what they wanted out of it, and that just couldn't have been done through a patch to the original game.

Until you pick up and play the game, and have experienced the full of what it offers, you just don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Viper]

To the people ranting at L4D2.
If the new content counts as expansion content, what content would make L4D2 sequel worthy.

 

[Pain]

Time.

 

[Damaera]

To be fair, I think they started on L4D2 before L4D1 even came out.

 

[Majin_You]

To the people ranting at L4D2.
If the new content counts as expansion content, what content would make L4D2 sequel worthy.

Compare HL 1 and HL 2.

Ideally, I wish all sequels would be as stark an improvement as that, but we don't all get what we want.

 

[Spunky]

Time.

Time is not content, and is irrelevant.