Ground Combat

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To continue with the idea from the Ice Wasteland Thread.

After watching the Majin Vegeta vs Goku fight, Ive actually been thinking of suggesting ground combat melee, although the only way to make it work effectively would be to give it a purpose over flying melee, I say:
- Ground combat deals more damage than aerial melee.
- To make ground combat appealing, have the characters gain access to tiers a lot faster then they normally would through regular combat. Im unaware of how the Tier system works, so if this isn't possible just make it have a triple PL gain advantage.

TWO WAYS TO INTEGRATE:
- Ground combat is a duel. Players can challenge other players through a menu. Once accepted by both sides, both players will drop to ground level and initiate combat.
Both combatants will be rendered invulnerable to other players.

OR

- All players are free to engage in ground combat in a free-for-all mode (Thinkin of Jedi Knight here). Moves (animations) will remain the same (depending on DT's willingness to create new animations). Combatants will be restricted to MELEE moves only. To prevent other players from being little *****es and beam spamming ground combatants to a pulp, the beams fired by these players will only deal 2-5% damage, while melee blows also deal insignificant damage. The ground combatants, on the other hand, are able to knock any interlopers away with triple the damage. (One hit kills with discs are also ineffective)

- Players can transform during combat.
- Players can choose to leave ground combat mode, but with PL, KI, or Health penalty. This way, you rather much prefer to finish your fight, then to retire without your honor, kakaroto!

I made up all this stuff as I typed, lol, maybe some stuff doesn't make much sense... yet.
 
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Yeah, but you might have noticed that suggestions such as these are likely to get turned down, specially considering the release date is drawing ever so closer.

Edit: 15 views so far! Cmon, gimme something ya fools!
 
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I just don't really see the point in ground combat to be honest if you consider that Dragonball was more based on the concept of ground combat seeing as not everyone had perfected flying techniques a whole lot. DBZ on the other hand is a mix of both, yet features a lot more aerial combat since every major villain pretty much used aerial combat as their main fighting style. You must also consider that the Z fighters also quickly adopted aerial combat as their preferred fighting method when taking on their enemies.

I just really don't see a whole lot of point to it. If you look at the game as it is now, a lot of players fight in the sky and use the ground in basic melee as means of gaining extra damage and as a way to get an energy attack or two in. People already use the ground to glide into the air after swoop from jumping off the ground, so the ground pretty much already serves a purpose to the overall combat of ESF if you consider that fighting in esf is predominantly based in the air.
 
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Other ground melee specifics I would envision would be:

- Lower maximum jump height to about 3 or 4 times the players height. Allows for more and quicker jumping around.
- Swooping is not available, instead, double tapping a direction key would allow a quick and very short range teleport (2 players height worth of distance). (For quick counters, think DBZ Budokai series)
- Melee speed (and thus damage) is upped a bit (By melee speed, I mean punches per second for example). Advantage of ground melee over aerial melee.

I personally wouldn't like the idea of a ground duel system. It would be a lot more fun if it were to be integrated within the actual game. Including teamplay.


I just don't really see the point in ground combat to be honest if you consider that Dragonball was more based on the concept of ground combat seeing as not everyone had perfected flying techniques a whole lot. DBZ on the other hand is a mix of both, yet features a lot more aerial combat since every major villain pretty much used aerial combat as their main fighting style. You must also consider that the Z fighters also quickly adopted aerial combat as their preferred fighting method when taking on their enemies.

I just really don't see a whole lot of point to it. If you look at the game as it is now, a lot of players fight in the sky and use the ground in basic melee as means of gaining extra damage and as a way to get an energy attack or two in. People already use the ground to glide into the air after swoop from jumping off the ground, so the ground pretty much already serves a purpose to the overall combat of ESF if you consider that fighting in esf is predominantly based in the air.
Obviously a lot of players fight in the air right now. Because there isn't any ground based combat. Fighting near the ground has absolutely no advantages right now, heck, it has more disadvantages because you are basically missing a large space where you could move in. Make ground combat more interesting, and people will use it.
 
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i think ground combat advantages are a good and balanced idea. Extra melee damage, faster tier bonuses, less ki consumption, and smaller knockbacks due to actually having your foot planted on something. Making it an entire duel mode would probably be excessive, though.

I was under the impression that they had something like that already, though it's been a while since I've checked the forums.
 
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I don't remember fighting on ground being an any sort of advantage in Dragon Ball.
 
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I don't remember fighting on ground being an any sort of advantage in Dragon Ball.
This is a game however, and you need gameplay balances and motivations to make it worthwhile over aerial combat.
 
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I don't remember fighting on ground being an any sort of advantage in Dragon Ball.
the characters DID have their own preferences. But if we're talking physics in and out of game, it'd make sense that fighting on the ground would have it's advantages. Not using ki to fly, you have better stance control for a stronger punch, and you have an actual footing so the knockback wouldn't be as bad.
 
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the characters DID have their own preferences. But if we're talking physics in and out of game, it'd make sense that fighting on the ground would have it's advantages. Not using ki to fly, you have better stance control for a stronger punch, and you have an actual footing so the knockback wouldn't be as bad.
Its pretty much the difference between Neo fighting on the ground in Matrix 1/2, and him fighting in the air in 3.
 
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the characters DID have their own preferences. But if we're talking physics in and out of game, it'd make sense that fighting on the ground would have it's advantages. Not using ki to fly, you have better stance control for a stronger punch, and you have an actual footing so the knockback wouldn't be as bad.
As far as we know the characters have become masters of bukujutsu and literally don't consume almost any KI at all (unless when they're flying at their top speed), and the damage of punches and kicks are mostly relied on actually using KI(which explains why they can destroy mountains by poking them :p) so better stances and footings on ground wouldn't really justify higher damage. The only good thing i could see is that if you're knocked away, you could recover quicker by jumping on the ground and sliding (sort of like you can sometimes see in naruto)
 
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Its pretty much the difference between Neo fighting on the ground in Matrix 1/2, and him fighting in the air in 3.
Neo was much stronger in the last movie, although I can see where you're getting at.
Remember Hlev, this is different from the anime, or the manga, being such a purist limits the brainstorm.
I think that a separate system altogether isn't aplicable right now. The only way to make the ground have its advantages over air is:

- What Mr. Plow said, use the ground for grabbing whe thrown back.

- By grabbing, we could also incorporate a new attack. Instead of jumping harmlessly through the air (ESF 1.2.3), make the character blast off as fast as possible towards his enemy with the possibility to land a strong blow with huge knockback. This requires a small charge, but its good for surprise attacks and for a quick and effective evasion. (Im thinking of Vegeta vs Recoome, after Vegeta gets knee'd in the face.) It would make a good recovery/counter move as well.

- Have a specific moveset for ground melee. Players will run out of KI and lay low to recover energy. For defense, the player will automatically switch to strong, one-hit punches/kicks. These will be blows that require minimal charge, thus it requires some skill to use, but will feature excellent knockback for desperate situations. In this sense, we can say that the advantage of ground is stronger footing, but the player suffers from very limited mobility. This moveset is activated after stamina has been throughly depleted, thus the player will have to make use of the ground.

- You can plant sensu beans in the beautiful soil and watch those babies grow... you can also plant indicas and sativas and have a smoking session with king yama.
 
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I was once on the ground melee side but then I felt like it would make them revamp melee AGAIN and I have a bad feeling it would make the transition from the two awkward.

As of now, given the graphic updates, i at least FEELS like your are fighting close to/on terrain with the enhanced dust, water, and speed line effects. If Darktooth sees this maybe he can shed light on if he has anything in the works for ground melee animations.

For actual gameplay, while I do not think a radical new type of melee for ground is what ESF needs, there should be some factors to take in to account when fighting an opponent, so when I think "Hmm, if I take him to the ground, what will happen?". Before it allowed the rolling hit combo, which I suppose it's a tactic, but I'd rather see something with more finesse/DBZness.

Perhaps teleporting on the ground uses less Ki than teleporting in the air? Being able to shoot ki blasts while in turbo running? Or like Mr. Plow said, allowing the victim to recover from a knock back by launching themselves in the air, immediately capable of attacking/shooting ki blasts.

I fear too many changes will make ground melee slow. Also by the end of the series most fights were aerial, and where they were grounded, like when SSJ2 Goku fought Majin Vegeta, they did more acrobatic, martial-artsy stuff, which can't really be conveyed properly in ESF.

One thing DBZ does that ESF CAN do is terrain effects, which I KNOW does not affect gameplay and would be "another eyecandy feature", but hey at least you would feel like your on ground and not just flying above polygons. I would like to see dust when melees collide on the ground, skid marks when a character is hit on an angle and slide across the terrain, etc.
 
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Although this will add another month or so on the development time, this feature may work fine.
I would love to see a balance between air and ground battle damage.

Plus it will give the user a feeling that the map is larger than it is. The user will pay more attention on the surroundings.
I'm sure the developers didn't mean to make a great terrain just to view it from high up in the sky.

This feature would make the player feel that the game is much bigger than it already is.

F1
 
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Am fine with any form of "ground combat". But before we can continue further imagining how cool it would be, we need a confirmation from the devs that, if the idea seems enticing enough, they'll work for it. Only then should we start offering suggestions, otherwise we'r just filling a null thread.
 

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im rooting for this one
though imo no drastic changes are needed besides adding a mini swoop only activated on ground which is 50% slower and costs no ki
therefor it will pay off to use it when ur low on ki
the mini swoop should have no aura effect
and the sliding mr.plow said sounds really good perhaps enable the mini swoop in the middle of the slide at the cost of a ki for a suprise attack
 
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im rooting for this one
though imo no drastic changes are needed besides adding a mini swoop only activated on ground which is 50% slower and costs no ki
therefor it will pay off to use it when ur low on ki
the mini swoop should have no aura effect
and the sliding mr.plow said sounds really good perhaps enable the mini swoop in the middle of the slide at the cost of a ki for a suprise attack
When you are low on KI, you'd just charge up. It will need more drastic changes, to make it a lot more enticing than aerial combat.
 
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I dislike the idea of swoop speed decreasing on the ground. How do you go back to normal swoop speed, flying up? At what angle is threshold of being on the slow ground swoop and shifting to faster air swoop?

I was watching the Ginyu Saga and when they fight on the ground, it's a lot easier for them to recover when they go flying, breaking their fall by jumping off rocks, ground, trees, etc. Perhaps at the cost of ki, characters could quickly recover from a knockback and counter or dodge. ESF has something like this already where you can get smashed on to the ground and after a second, spring back up, forward, or backward. I say make this faster and make the transition from absorbing and countering faster. Defensively, this could be used players who enjoy counter attacks, and for the players on the offensive, they could bait their opponent in to draining their ki by recovering from falls. It also represents a challenge for a faster paced game, especially at levels with a lot of ki, since recover would be easier.

Also, due to the more intricate maps, using the landscape as cover (Ice Wasteland is a good example) will naturally come in to play and again, with all the graphic effects, you will feel like you are on terrain and not just at low altitude.
 
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It also represents a challenge for a faster paced game, especially at levels with a lot of ki, since recover would be easier.
haha, this game... is VERY fast paced... lol. Think of 1.1 on crack and less exploits. But the ability to do massive damage = pwnage. And yet if properly timed, the victim can still turn the tables. SUCH great battles can be had.


Im hoping you guys make a load of movies when we release XD
 
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I was watching the Ginyu Saga and when they fight on the ground, it's a lot easier for them to recover when they go flying, breaking their fall by jumping off rocks, ground, trees, etc. Perhaps at the cost of ki, characters could quickly recover from a knockback and counter or dodge. ESF has something like this already where you can get smashed on to the ground and after a second, spring back up, forward, or backward. I say make this faster and make the transition from absorbing and countering faster. Defensively, this could be used players who enjoy counter attacks, and for the players on the offensive, they could bait their opponent in to draining their ki by recovering from falls. It also represents a challenge for a faster paced game, especially at levels with a lot of ki, since recover would be easier,
Read my post at the top of the page about grabbing.
I think that this counter type move can easily be added to a player's arsenal, it respects balance, and its Ki cost prevents it from becoming spammable.
I think the rest might have already been settled.
 

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