1.2 Adv. Melee vs. Simple melee (and other things)

[Snow]

you're putting words in my mouth, where did i "*****" about howing? i said it was an unfair advantage, which it was, simple statement not regarding opinion. Yes it is easy to avoid but it used to happen and i didnt like it when it did, is that unreasonable? are u gonna hate me now cuz ive stated my opinion?

It was not directed at you i said people, i used ur words as an example. this is way off topic i just wanna see what a dev person has to say.

 

[Phatslugga]

Halorin you have your nerve to talk about people whining. Who started the HOW term? You did. Who *****ed about ki pouncing with teleports YOU did. Its strange how everything that used to KICK YOUR ASS was takin out of the game.

Does it matter who made the term up? It makes sense, Head-on Whore. It's not like he created HOWing, he just gave you something to name it, people would be doing it regardless of his term or not. I don't see your point here. He made the term up so.... he's wrong somehow? Are you sure that HOWing and insta-teleports "kicked his ass"? He was much better than me at the game and I could deal with HOWers, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. Of course, no one could do anything about insta-teleports unless they had cat-like reflexes. Your opponent is all the way across the map, and suddenly he appears in front of you kicking you in the face. From your post, it seems like you're insinuating that the team took these exploits out becuase Halorin was having problems with it? Are you retarded? They were taken out becuase they were exploits, just that simple.

Learn to play the game fairly... without using cheap little exploits.

 

[Ultimate 17]

Doesn't take much for a beta tester to say he can "juke" people in the game. You know the moves and had time to practice and play thru bug trials. You know what is possible and not possible in 1.2.

And I'm not quite sure what you mean by outwitting someone. Are you talking about straight up swooping skills, or fooling them with the arrows?

In regard to the arrows of adv. combo system, I don't agree that you can 'fool' someone with the random arrows. The random arrow comes up on a small chance so you can't rely on it. To say you can fool people with this is an overstatement because only 1/3 times will that random arrow occur. The rest of the times they will see the HUGE FOCKING ARROW and press it to block you. And even if you were to try faking the special combos by replacing the strong attack with another strong attack in the opposite direction-- there's only that slim chance of a random arrow. But in the event that the random arrow does show for the fake special combo, they will still be guessing the special combo direction just because any direction has a 1/4 chance of winning. Its about playing the odds. They weren't fooled, they were guessing, simply because if it HADN'T been a random arrow, they would have seen it on the screen and you would have been blocked.

There's no fooling in 1.2 simply because you can't do the random arrows on command. If you could, sure.. it would be more mentally challenging, but then all the skill would be taken out of the game-- replaced by your lucky rabbit's foot.

This is one major area of concern for 1.2. People aren't blind. They can read the arrows on the screen and they hang there long enough to hit them all. Wow. Takes alot of skill to read <, ^, >, v

Maybe you can fool people during swoop with the teleport images, but that's nothing special since 1.1 could have easily had those mirages as well.
I hope that a few team members will hear the demand for the old melee system and make two modes of ESF eventually. Just like Natural Selection does with 'Combat' and 'strategy NS', ESF could do advanced mode and simple mode. Servers would use a cvar to determine which mode would play. It would be the best of both worlds. Incorporate the old melee system in with the new graphics of the beams and animatons for the simple mode. Leave 1.2 as is for the advanced mode.

I think enough people have made mention that this game is slow as a turtle, so how are we wrong in our opinion? Crack was right about the football and chess analogy. ESF 1.2 has become chess and all of the old school vets are being sent like pawns to the front line because we are expendable since this huge pool of noobs showed up and like 1.2 because it takes half the skill of 1.1. The team can say they don't care since enough people like the new style, but I don't think they shouldn't listen to the advice of the people who have been here for 2+ years. If we weren't here 2 years ago, ESF wouldn't be here most likely.

 

[Skiwan]

and what about the whole other lot of arsenal you've been given? do u not use them? cuz tatics involves a stratergy, which is adaptive, swooping in different directions can fool the oponent same with the arrows (believe me it does work, otherwise nobody would ever loose in advanced melee) ive done it before, u tap the wrong key and then u start ****ing up the dodging. You can now use your ki attacks like in the actual series *gasp* where u can use it to make sure you can swoop you're opponent by guiding them in the direction u want, you can throw a ki blast here and there sometime stoping their swoop etc. You can do many many many many things, i've tried out tons, because each person i fight i have to adapt to, unlike the old system where nearly every1 i fought was the same.

 

[Ultimate 17]

and what about the whole other lot of arsenal you've been given? do u not use them? cuz tatics involves a stratergy, which is adaptive, swooping in different directions can fool the oponent same with the arrows (believe me it does work, otherwise nobody would ever loose in advanced melee) ive done it before, u tap the wrong key and then u start ****ing up the dodging. You can now use your ki attacks like in the actual series *gasp* where u can use it to make sure you can swoop you're opponent by guiding them in the direction u want, you can throw a ki blast here and there sometime stoping their swoop etc. You can do many many many many things, i've tried out tons, because each person i fight i have to adapt to, unlike the old system where nearly every1 i fought was the same.

Yes, the arsenal of beams. We've all been to far too many servers where spam runs from corner to corner of the map since people are tired of melee. And you had to use tactics in 1.1 as well, so I don't see your point on making 1.2 seem better than 1.1. And if you think swooping to the left is gonna make me go another direction, you must be joking.

Besides, its not fooling someone if they make the human mistake of mis-hitting a wrong arrow. Some people have fat fingers (such as yourself I'm sure) and mis-key.

And your choppy explanation of ki blast usage sounds like anything you could do in 1.1. And perhaps everyone fought the same in 1.1 because it was the best/most fun/most dmging/exciting way to play. Its what we have been discussing this entire thread.

 

[shay]

i dont know what is ur problem...

this is a great game , much ...much more intresting then the that push back melee

and i played that basic melee aaaaaalot.....

if u like the basic melee so much reinstall 1.1.......

there is just one thing i can say on 1.1 melee:

It was a good thing and its good thet it WAS ...(sounds better in hebrew...)


( '-')

 

[!XxShAdOwxX!]

well i do do it...but in 1.1 i could chain combo someone like 4 times when i was transed

ON TOPIC: well i can do like 7 or 8 chain combos very easily in this mode now that the hitback from simple melee is slower, i like it slower.. you can do swooping or teleport to do the chain melee

The max is 4 (if after the second one you hit to the ground).

 

[MysticUub]

see...a lot of u guys are totally contradicting yourselves...u say that adv melee is teh own...but then u turn around and say that u use simple melee most of the time....y is that?...because adv melee is USELESS....honestly...i challenge anyone on these forums to an adv melee fight no simple melee...u may be able to out swoop me...but i GUARANTEE that u will NOT hit me with ANY arrows unless they are randoms...and even then itll be a BIG maybe...the only ppl that beat me in this game are the ppl like loki (and yes i know who u really are ;D) that use only simple melee...and the reason y..is because its so easy to dodge...and whats the point of using something that isnt gonna get u any hits?....the ONLY time i ever get killed with adv melee is if im almost dead and someone does the full 12 hits (or im so close to death that one or two kills me)...im dead serious about this..i want it recorded too...i challenge any person...be it team member or beta tester or anyone that thinks they own at 1.2 adv melee and u wont be able to touch me...just because i dont get ahead of myself...and i take my time....

the best suggestion ive heard short of totally abolishing adv melee all together...is what 17 said about the ns type thing...have a simple mode and an adv mode...just like combat and strat....and like i said countless times throughout the many arguements goin on reguarding this subject...imo..the best thing the team coulda done to make everyone happy in 1.2 would have been to impliment the knock back feature and first to swoop wins thing thats in the game now...

 

[Skiwan]

Yes, the arsenal of beams. We've all been to far too many servers where spam runs from corner to corner of the map since people are tired of melee. And you had to use tactics in 1.1 as well, so I don't see your point on making 1.2 seem better than 1.1. And if you think swooping to the left is gonna make me go another direction, you must be joking.

Besides, its not fooling someone if they make the human mistake of mis-hitting a wrong arrow. Some people have fat fingers (such as yourself I'm sure) and mis-key.

And your choppy explanation of ki blast usage sounds like anything you could do in 1.1. And perhaps everyone fought the same in 1.1 because it was the best/most fun/most dmging/exciting way to play. Its what we have been discussing this entire thread.

You really missed the point, if you cant understand that all these things (like every peice on a chess board) are all involved in gameplay, not one is better than the other, just they are to be used according to you're opponent, enviroment, and how well you are doing. And no, it wasnt easy to ki blast sum1 in 1.1 cuz when u did u wont be able to get another lock on for quite a while while they do the repetative melee which makes u a flying punch bag untill they've finished their combo. If you cant use what you're given tactically, Its your problem, i play esf almost everyday, the people i play are usally better than me, so they arent having a problem with it either.

You see the game is first about learning control or as its commonly known "skill" (hence the stage noobs are at), then when the player has grasped what things do and the effect they have, people start to develop stratergy/tactics, thats the stage that average players exists, then when they are able to adapt their tactics for any player, they are the L337 players.

 

[KnyghtX]

The ability to move in one direction?
Anyone who has passed the second grade realized you can turn your mouse and move in another direction. This is more about mind games than reflexes and speed. You want mind games? Than fake out people while swooping its easy.
You can't trick someone while inputing commands if you're just going to tell them what you're doing. Theres also a small delay before you have to input the buttons to dodge, it gives you more than enough time to look at the button before you have to input it, its not like you must slam the button immediately.

in 1.1 there were also mind games. Even the HOWers developed strategies and weaved their "webs" of traps. They would trick you into coming at them thinking they ran out of ki, and BAM smack you right up. If you say "It's not hard to see their trap right away, same thing goes for your 'trick them while inputing commands'."

Besides in 1.0/1.1 you were able to move in more directions than you are now. You were able to move diagonally. Now if you double tap two directions you would only go in one. Now you're probably thinking "Hey you can do the same thing with the foward double tap." Thats the same exact thing as the 1.0/1.1 you just swoop foward and do all that stuff.

 

[MysticUub]

ya...its so "leet" to use the simple melee system instead of the adv one because it does NOTHING......i agree that there are tactics that work...but my god...most of them use SIMPLE melee as a catalyst...just like someone (i forget who) said they launched kame torps at a guy...then SIMPLE meleed him to kill him...and with the way that has been suggested SO many times b4 in this thread that would still be entirely possible...

thats what u guys are misunderstanding...we dont want the 1.1 system with targeting and howing back...we want the "1.1" system with the awesome chain combos...melee...and other aspects of 1.1 that were restricted for stupid reasons (u all know what im talkin about)... mixed with the double tap/multi directional swoop and the head on knockback...i dont see the point in having a system in a game that NOONE uses....its 1.) a waste of code and hd space..2.) a waste of time...if the team had worked more on the 1.1 system and mixed the swooping and stuff and eliminated howing with the knockback instead of making a whole new system that noone even uses the game woulda been out 6 months ago..and all this argueing wouldnt be happening....

i guess this is just a losing arguement for the ppl that want it changed because like 17 said..there has been a recent wave of noobs that far outnumber the ppl that have been here since the beginning that like 1.2 because they dont know anything else...or because they werent around long enuff to appreciate the old melee...

and really guys...give it up with this whole arguement saying that the only ppl that want the game changed back are the ppl that were good in 1.1 and cant win anymore...its total bs...i could turn that totally around on u guys too and say that the only reason u like 1.2 is because u sucked ass at 1.1 and u acctually stand a sliver of a chance now that the adv melee is so simple...

LOL thats funny...adv melee is easier than simple melee....

anyway...i dont know if u guys dont see where we are comming from...or if u just refuse to see it...or if u are just kissing ass or what...but ive seen more ppl agree with us in this thread than ppl disagree...there have been a total of maybe 4 or 5 that defend 1.2 vs like 15+ that want it changed...to me thats an overwhelming difference...and if that ratio acctually stays the same throughout the community (which it has if u look at the number of ppl that dled the game vs the amount of ppl that actually PLAY anymore) then esf wont be around much longer im afraid

 

[Pain]

just to add to the number that agree, here i am

yep, i agree that a 1.1 system of melee, with the anti how/lsm, and chainswooping, and all of the upgrades that have been made (minus adv melee) would be best, and more skill dependant, than DDR/luck dependant.

 

[KnyghtX]

Its pretty f*cking easy to lock on back in 1.1. You just had to make sure you were at proper ping (Less than 100) so you would have the quickest lock on time. It takes less than a second to point and click. You don't neccessarily have to ki blast, beam jump on the ground next to them, leaving huge mass of space to recharge, lock and continue your fight, simple.

 

[Skiwan]

ya...its so "leet" to use the simple melee system instead of the adv one because it does NOTHING......i agree that there are tactics that work...but my god...most of them use SIMPLE melee as a catalyst...just like someone (i forget who) said they launched kame torps at a guy...then SIMPLE meleed him to kill him...and with the way that has been suggested SO many times b4 in this thread that would still be entirely possible...

thats what u guys are misunderstanding...we dont want the 1.1 system with targeting and howing back...we want the "1.1" system with the awesome chain combos...melee...and other aspects of 1.1 that were restricted for stupid reasons (u all know what im talkin about)... mixed with the double tap/multi directional swoop and the head on knockback...i dont see the point in having a system in a game that NOONE uses....its 1.) a waste of code and hd space..2.) a waste of time...if the team had worked more on the 1.1 system and mixed the swooping and stuff and eliminated howing with the knockback instead of making a whole new system that noone even uses the game woulda been out 6 months ago..and all this argueing wouldnt be happening....

i guess this is just a losing arguement for the ppl that want it changed because like 17 said..there has been a recent wave of noobs that far outnumber the ppl that have been here since the beginning that like 1.2 because they dont know anything else...or because they werent around long enuff to appreciate the old melee...

and really guys...give it up with this whole arguement saying that the only ppl that want the game changed back are the ppl that were good in 1.1 and cant win anymore...its total bs...i could turn that totally around on u guys too and say that the only reason u like 1.2 is because u sucked ass at 1.1 and u acctually stand a sliver of a chance now that the adv melee is so simple...

LOL thats funny...adv melee is easier than simple melee....

anyway...i dont know if u guys dont see where we are comming from...or if u just refuse to see it...or if u are just kissing ass or what...but ive seen more ppl agree with us in this thread than ppl disagree...there have been a total of maybe 4 or 5 that defend 1.2 vs like 15+ that want it changed...to me thats an overwhelming difference...and if that ratio acctually stays the same throughout the community (which it has if u look at the number of ppl that dled the game vs the amount of ppl that actually PLAY anymore) then esf wont be around much longer im afraid

The simple melee is just for a tactical knockback to gain time for an attack charge, power up, or so u can take 2 or 3 people on at once. I prefer to use advanced melee to deal damage, because contrary to what u believe, i think the largest proportion of damage i give people isnt ki attacks, or prepunches, throws, or simple melee, its the advanced melee. If you use it right, then you would too, sorry but you're just no good if people block everythin u give em cept randoms. Plus youve totally forgot how the randoms are a tactic, stronger the attack, the more likely it'll be random and hence u lure people into them, i mean it was the first thing i did when i got 1.2 was explorer ways i can deal a considerable amount of damage during advanced melee.

Other than that, I give up man, ive either read every arguement you've come up with be put down, or i have argued against it myself, and u still comeback with the same arguements.

 

[MysticUub]

lol dude..u have been put down just as many times...like ultimate 17 said...there is no way in hell that making randoms is tactical because u cant rely on them being there all the time....there's only a 1 in 3 chance that itll be random...and by that time the person has picked out your patern....no matter how much u argue there is ALWAYS a pattern to what ppl do...the reason being is because there are only 4 directions u can push (sure u can do diagonals but u only have to push one direction to block those)...and really...to prove my point only and not to be rude...i want to fight u with adv melee...i promise u u wont touch me other than prepunches (duh) and maybe a couple randoms...

 

[Skiwan]

"lol dude..u have been put down just as many times" erm quite the oposite, i feel that i can let my arguement rest cuz its addressed all your criticisms of the 1.2 system there isnt anything you've said that hasnt been rebutted, and everything people are saying now are the same arguement, so i really dont think its relevant to sit and retype things in 101 different ways untill they start to listen to the answer to their problems.

heh, i hardly ever prepunch, never throw unless low health (waist of ki otherwise), and hardly ever get hit, i win most head ons cept if they got more than 1 or 2 random arrows, they're usually easy enough to guess. Of course i loose a lot to the l337 players cuz im not that good, but i must say i beat more people in advanced melee fights than any other way, cuz thats how i usually get my kills (well that and a few different ki attacks), and sometimes im not the one who starts it, and thats no accident ....well i tell a lie sumtimes people just out-swoop me so thats an accident but still, i have my methods.

 

[MysticUub]

dude...u have to prepunch to do adv melee...how do u not prepunch?....

 

[KnyghtX]

random arrows, they're usually easy enough to guess.

You even said it yourself gj man thx for helping our cause.

 

[Skiwan]

You even said it yourself gj man thx for helping our cause.

no no no no no, im not cuz ur all complaining that the random arrows take away skill, saying you have to guess them, makeing the game based on luck, there u go contradicting your arguement.

And when i said i dont prepunch much, i ment i do the minimum i have to, cuz i wanna get to the bit where i can deal damage. Or i let them swoop me, depending on what type of player they are, (thrower, simple melee or advanced) because to me, a few hp dont matter, u can do the same damage with a medium punch most times, so its pretty irrelevant to me, i'd rather conserve ki so i can blam them when the advanced melee is over.

 

[Snow]

When he said prepunch he means like 1-3 times, witch i dont get. to get the max stun time dont u need to be at 6+ prepunch hits?