Transformation Attacking

[SailorAlea]

I've played with this person, ImpATom, he goes by the name of, "Atom," in games.

I was trying to show someone something, and he continually attacked them. I asked very politely for him to stop, he wouldn't. I votekicked him, and he was booted. He came back.

Immediately he started going off about how I votekicked him for "transform killing." I said, "No, I didn't kick you for that reason, but that's not honorable, either."

He attempted to persuade me that attacking a transforming person is the same as attacking someone charging a spiritbomb.

I disagreed, and told him that the person transforming is not going to unleash a massive attack the second he completes the transformation, though someone charging a spiritbomb will.

He responded to this argument by using the ad hominem argument--insulting me, desperately searching for any typos in my writing, trying to discredit me by my use of the English language?

I just love it when a person can't argue something, so they then turn to personal attacks.

He says, "Now, I understand that a spirit bomb seems to be a bigger threat then simply transforming, but I personally think it's like saying "It's okay to shoot the guy with the pistol, but not the guy who is setting up the rocket launcher.". Can anyone clarify this for me?"

Yes, I have made it perfectly clear. The person with the rocket launcher, (using the spiritbomb,) will launch it upon it's completion. The person with the pistol, (person transforming) will NOT fire a massive weapon the second he is finished transforming, will he?

The person transforming is not an immediate threat, while the spiritbomb charging person IS.
That is the difference. That is why it is dishonorable to attack someone who is transforming. You're taking advantage of their immobility.

I trust this is clear enough, for even you, Atom.

 

[RaVe]

but it is their choice to take the risk of transforming,and if they get injured in any way it would be their own fault.

That's why the ESF teaam put in transformation times,that's why they have a saying that there is no free lunch in the world

And they could simply use their Descend button to stop transforming and defend themselves for once....

And I dug this up on some ancient thread of apocalypse....

If you dont like it keep playing until you hit perfect transformatin level

 

[ImpATom]

I'm sorry, but someone transforming is often more of a threat then someone charging a spirit bomb. If you were playing another FPS, and you saw someone going for the Ultimate Weapon (be it the rocket launcher, the instagib shock rifle or any other easy-to-abuse weapon), would you not shoot them? It's the same here. Someone transforming as Vegita would easily be able to Final Flash afterwards. They're just "getting their rocket launcher.". And FF is far more of a danger then Spirit Bomb. (I believe it is at least. Insanely powerful, controllable and can be instanly detonated, plus it's a lot less of a target.) Saying that just because they're not attacking right away, you shouldn't attack, is stupid. If you wish to be honorable about it, that is indeed fine and your own choice. Claiming that it's cheating however, is different.

You don't go into Natural Selection and say "Don't shoot me, I'm transforming into a fade!", and yet nobody complains about that there. How is this different? In fact, it's better in ESF because you can stop transformation instantly. The reason a marine shoots a transforming alien in NS is because once they transform, they tend to own marines badly. Why shouldn't I kill a 1,750,000 PL transforming Goku if I know they'll Kame me to death when they tranform?

If you don't want someone to transform attack you, hide. It's common sense, and what most players do... or play a character who doesn't have to transform more then once. Cell, Krillin or Buu. If a server has a "no transform attacking" rule, then I will obey it.. but otherwise, I don't see the reason behind it.

And for the record SailorAlea, it's nice to see you didn't pay attention to anything I said, so sure that you were right that you can't even remember what I said. And you didn't "ask" either. You started the vote kick as soon as I killed the first person, before you even said a word, then you used your friends in the server to continue the kicks, until you left once I made a point you couldn't contradict. Just because someone can't attack right away doesn't make them less of a threat. If you know someone is about to shoot nuclear missiles at your country, you don't wait until they have them armed and ready to fire. You attack before they can.

 

[GMan]

I'm tired of people making analogies between things that don't relate to the subject at hand. Apples and oranges, so they say. Comparing transforming to becoming an Onos is a completely unfounded arguement because these are two different games. I suppose it's also a matter of how good you are. If you're good enough to kill the guy who transformed, then let them. If you suck, try to kill them so you don't lose. However, if you do try, prepare for me raping you four or twelve times after I transform.

 

[SailorAlea]

Actually, 'for the record,' I had no friends there to "use to kick you," that's once again, an assumption.

I DID ask you to stop attacking him, and you didn't respond. I told you I was trying to show him something, and again, you didn't respond. The first time you responded was when I brought up the votekick. Perhaps you have a bad memory.

As for your statements..

I don't believe attacking a transforming person is CHEATING, per se--I think it's cheap, and it's not honorable, yes. Also, you seem to think "Vegita would easily be able to Final Flash afterwards" is correct. Well, if you're right in front of someone as they're transforming, it's understood you're going to fight them when they're done. What, in the 10 seconds it takes to even fire a minimum power Final Flash, are you going to be doing? You act like he can just INSTANTLY fire the ultimate weapon, and in that, you are QUITE wrong.

Do I believe it's stupid of someone to transform in the open, on a large map with many people? Of course. Do I believe you should pick a secluded spot to transform? Yes. But if you happen to find someone transforming in those secluded spots, you aren't honorably justified in interrupting their transformation.

 

[MC]

Trans killing isn't bad and it isn't good, i do it most of the time, just not to people that can easily kill me (depends). I think if you trans killed someone its their fault for not hiding, also most people would agree with me. It might be cowardly but also its an option you can take if you have to, besides if they made it to where you complete invurnerable to attacks, noobs will spam that so much. In a way Trans killing is like camping in CS. When you transkill you prevent someone from getting stronger and killing you or getting the upper hand and with camping you can prevent better players from getting you by suprise. People would say both are cheap, but at least both of them work.

sorry to go off topic

=/\/\C

 

[ImpATom]

... It doesn't matter if they can't fire it instantly. They still can. And a SSJ can teleport horribly fast. They can beamjump away. They can hit you and run. Either way, it's likely they'll fire a Final Flash off. It's as much, if not more of a risk. Just because they can't do it right away doesn't make it less of a risk. If you're standing right in front of someone transforming, they'll stop transforming and smack you, as they should. I've never seen it assumed that waiting in front of someone is a "duel sign", but rather every time I've seen it done, it's someone waiting for a meele hit during that brief second after transformation.

.. and for the record, honor? Honor is allowing someone to get up. Honor is not allowing someone to pull a handgun out and shoot you while you stand there waiting. If you ask to transform before a battle, they agree, and then they attack you, that would be dishonorable. Attacking someone who is becoming more powerful is smart, not dishonorable. If you and someone else are having a duel, then you set the rules beforehand... but most of the time in ESF, they are just down-and-dirty fights. Most of the duels I see are set beforehand. And once you get into "transform attacking is dirty", you get into stupid areas.

What if someone detranses in the middle of a fight, due to ki loss. Should you let them retrans? What if someone uses transformations as a cheap meele block? Is it wrong to attack them then? And for that matter, how is transform attacking different then attacking someone recharging their ki?

Ki recharge: You can't move. You can stop at any time. You only recharge ki. You gain no bonuses. People don't seem to mind attacking you.

Transform: Your can't move. You can stop at any time. You gain a large amount of advantages. People get angry if you're attacked.

.. care to explain? What is the difference? Ki recharges naturally as long as you're not flying, so you don't HAVE to charge either. It just makes sense to.

 

[SailorAlea]

You say that a super saiya-jin can teleport quickly, or beamjump. You seem to forget that if while they're transforming, and you have a lock on them, it retains the lock, even after transformation. If they teleport/beamjump away, all they're doing is wasting an enormous amount of energy, which will make them lose in melee, if you try to follow them.

You're trying to justify transform killing by saying they pose a threat, if you don't. Your enemies always pose a threat. Does that mean it's right to constantly kame-spam someone's spawn, to ENSURE they are never a threat? No.

If someone detransforms due to bad ki management, then it's their own fault, they should not be allowed to retransform.

Transform attacking is very different between someone charging their ki, for several reasons.

Good ki management is critical to winning any melee fight. You have to constantly charge ki in order to win any, say, head on charge.

You do not need to de, and re, transform every few seconds, do you? No. You have several advantages of charging ki, rather then transforming.

You can move freely while charging your ki, and not something many people know, you can -already- have turbo charged, WHILE you're charging. (Press and hold E, then press T). So not only are you in a position you are constantly gaining ki, you can move easily, with no delay.

While transforming, you are immobile. You can cancel the transformation, yes, but there is a slight lag from that point.

A cancelled transformation is a lot more 'harmful' then simply not charging your ki to it's fullest.

I don't see where you're making the comparison.. You are comparing two unlike things, which doesn't make sense.

As Gman said.. "Apples and oranges."

 

[ImpATom]

So I can move as long as I exploit a glitch? Wonderful! That's so much better! They are the same thing. Good Ki managment is a good idea, but not required. Transforming is a good idea, but not required. Charging your ki (without exploiting a glitch!) means you can't move. Transforming means you can't move (and I've seen glitches that let you move while transforming, although I don't know how to activate them.). I've noticed no "lag" in transformation cancelling. I can cancel and kick someone standing in front of me almost instantly. Same with ki-charging. These are not apples and oranges. These are two different kinds of apples. They may look different on the outside, but they're still apples on the inside.

So they have a lock on. You can still move and ki-charge amazingly fast.. and hide well enough and they'll lose their lock on. Beam jumping takes a ton of energy? A good beam jump from a super takes about as much as a swoop, and gets you a lot farther.

Now, I asked around in a few servers, and the main response I got for why I shouldn't transform attack is "because they don't do it on the show.". I really doubt I need to get into how silly that is.

 

[SailorAlea]

Glitch? Exploit? What ARE you talking about? You can ALWAYS move freely from charging ki.
And you can't cancel and kick someone in front of you, unless they're RIGHT in front of you, because you lose a target lock the second you cancel transformation.

By the way, a beamjump to get you any good distance, requires an -enormous- amount of your ki.

 

[SailorAlea]

Anyway, goodnight, I'll post more on this tomorrow, if you choose to respond.

 

[MajinPuNk]

i just think trans killin is so annoiying...i say u play wit noble rules...like no double teaming...wait till both fighters r ready to fight...so on....it then proves who the better man is...and builds skill!

 

[Shinkawa]

Really it depends on the player :/ If they like the challenge they won't interfere, or if your afraid getting melee'd over and over again you would stop them from getting that extra sppeed and power, I find it an optional thingy

 

[ImpATom]

Okay, perhaps we miscommuncated. I mean charging Ki, not turbo. While charging Ki, you are in a pose and may not move. With turbo (surrounded by an aura), you can move freely. I've heard Turbo called Charging Ki as well, so if we miscommunicated, excuse me. However, charging your ki is something you can not move while doing. You can activate turbo, but you still can not move.

Yes, you lose a lock on. My point, however, is that there is no lag between stopping a transformation and kicking someone in the face who is standing in front of you.

I was just in Cell Arena. While untransformed, yes, it takes an obscene amount of ki to Beamjump.. but while transformed, it barely took 1/8th of my energy, which is something I can recharge in about a second.

 

[SailorAlea]

I mean, you say there's no lag between stopping a transformation and kicking someoen in the face, standing in front of you.

Simple solution to that problem.. Stay above them, or a little farther away. No need to be right -next- to them..

 

[ImpATom]

Oh yes, I agree. No reason at all to be standing in front of someone transforming. No, the point I was trying to make is that there isn't a time-lag between stopping transformation and being able to move.. or rather, no more of one then anything else. Perhaps it is just the inability of the text medium to get the information across. Sorry if I can't be understood.

 

[Hitokiri]

Many players have a sense of "honor." This game is treated on large part, after all, as a dueling game. So allowing your enemy to transform is often seen as a simple courtesy. That's just how it goes. If you violate that, some people get offended. Meh.

Often times, right after I transform, I get hit by a kamehameha and die

Honor only goes so far I guess.

 

[SailorAlea]

I agree, Hitokiri.

One simple thing that my 'text can't convey' to you, is that you don't have to be literally NEXT to someone transforming. There's no disadvantage at being 10 feet away.

If you're standing right NEXT to someone transforming, you're just asking to be hit.

 

[Pain]

http://forum.esforces.com/showthread.php?threadid=26413

mmmm search button goooooood

 

[SailorAlea]

Oh, Atom? This guy supports what I'm saying.. If you're standing right in front of a guy as they transform, as you say you do, this could be why people keep breaking transform to kick you.


Zenny writes,
"I agree it is a lame exploitable block, but they need to keep canceling out of a tranform in.

If you're like me. It pisses me off when people stand right there ready to melee me while I transform so I cancel and smack em away and try again. Or if they try to charge an attack, I'm not gonna sit there transforming and let them prepare to kill me! I again beat them to the ground till its safe."

Perhaps you're the cause of your own problems.