Sword Discussion

[-Origin]

I just counted ALL my swords.

34 swords... and 1 spear. I don't even want to think about how much I spent getting them. -.-

 

[Avenger]

I thought this article was interesting, on the topic of swords. Basically, they discovered that the ancient steel type called Damascus steel contained carbon nanotubes and nanowires, and it is believed that these materials was what made Damascus steel so legendary in terms of sharpness and durability.

What if a traditional Japanese swordsmith created a katana using a material with carbon nanomaterials in? I'm curious whether it would boost the blade's traits even more.

 

[Eon]

Oh you internet and your swords.

 

[MC]

Meh, the only "weapons" I own are a bokken, 6 foot hardwood bo, 5 foot rattan bo and a wooden wakizashi.

 

[Deman]

I thought this article was interesting, on the topic of swords. Basically, they discovered that the ancient steel type called Damascus steel contained carbon nanotubes and nanowires, and it is believed that these materials was what made Damascus steel so legendary in terms of sharpness and durability.

What if a traditional Japanese swordsmith created a katana using a material with carbon nanomaterials in? I'm curious whether it would boost the blade's traits even more.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html for some information on how we've been able to somewhat reverse engineer Damascus Steel. As for katanas, I've heard the main reason why the Japanese had use a folding technique in their sword production was due to the fact that Japan had very poor quality iron. So they came up with a process that allowed them to continually add carbon to it by folding the blade several times. Supposedly you were looking to make a blade that was harder on the outside through the addition of this carbon, but still retain a somewhat softer core that offered some flexibility.

 

[Rocky]

What if a traditional Japanese swordsmith created a katana using a material with carbon nanomaterials in? I'm curious whether it would boost the blade's traits even more.

Material Iron
Japanese swords are made primarily of two different irons, known as "Tamahagane" and "Hochotetsu". Tamahagane is the strongest iron but it is also very rare, Hochotetsu which is more readily available, is generally used for items where durability isn't as crucial, like a kitchen knife. These ores are both extracted from iron sand which is found mainly high in the mountains. With special equipment called a "Tatara" using as little heat as possible and a great deal of time the iron is finally extracted. Even after this lengthy process, only a small amount of Tamahagane, is extracted so Tamahagane can be very expensive. Tamahagane is so rare and costly that it is normally added by "Oroshigane". By creating an alloy of different metals of varying density, most commonly a mixture of Tamahagane and Hochotetsu, the cost of producing a katana is much lower without sacrificing quality.

More info @ Wikipedia

Japanese swords are crafted from their own special metal, derived from "black sand" I think if they radically changed the type of metal used to craft the sword, the resulting result would be a completely different product.

On the subject of folding steel, that's basically how Katana get their curve, by the continuous folding and bending of the metal. A friend bought me a book on the subject, very interesting read.

 

[Avenger]

Obviously it'd be different, but damascus steel is widely regarded as the finest steel in existence - and any object can be improved upon by nanomaterials, as a rule. If you were to add carbon nanotubes to the iron that katanas were made from, it would likely become even better, and require fewer folds.

 

[Rocky]

Not the point, if you were to make sushi using Indian basmati rice instead of Japanese sushi rice, it would cease to be sushi as we know it and become something entirely different. Is it better? Basmati rice is healthier for you, but you lose the thing that characterizes the dish.

Likewise if you change the metal used and with the new metal you change the process (fewer folds), you're no longer producing the same thing. You've made something completely different. If you're saying "what would happen if a modern day swordsmith crafted a sword using damascus steel" that might be a valid question, but if you're saying "what would happen if ancient Japanese swordsmiths had access to Damascus steel" the question is far too open ended, they may have developed an entirely different method of forging that is unlike anything currently in existence.

Like most things Japanese, it's the time and effort taken to perfect the craft that is the reason why the quality of items produced is so high. 6-12 months per sword in comparison to cheaply produced medieval Europe blades. It's something to be admired.

 

[Avenger]

I think you misunderstood everything I said. I have no interest in "replacing" the katana, I said I'd like to see if you could improve upon the design. I don't care if you think it's sacrilege, and go all emo on me for suggesting it - I am curious whether modern technology could improve upon an already exquisite weapon, and could care less that you feel its history makes it "wrong" to do so.

Unless you've studied materials in general at some point, please don't say you can't have two materials behave similarly, but have one be an improvement. With modern technology we could create alloys that are perfect for the creation of a blade like the katana, and that's what interests me. Can an already excellent weapon be made better by involving modern technology?

It wouldn't necessarily take less time, and the quality would likely be even higher than that of the current old katanas. Sure, it would be a different weapon, I never said it wouldn't be. If you want to be pedantic, go somewhere else. Would the weapon be any less of a work of art? Doubtful. The difference in material would allow a brand new appearance in terms of colour and pattern of the blade, and this would in turn allow a different kind of decoration and artistry. Different doesn't have to be bad.

 

[Eon]

Oh you internet and your swords.

Just sayin'.

 

[Darth Revan]

Sorry, but I have to question the legitimacy of your claim, I was in Japan last year and figured if I'm going to Japan, I have to buy a sword (even just a replica one). On researching I found that real swords not only cost a fortune, but are all considered national treasures of Japan. In order to export one out of the country you need a legal document approved by the government. Without one, you either did something shady or you got taken for a ride.

I did buy a replica one for 18,000Y (most expensive one in the store) I have pics at home and on facebook so I'll post them here when I get a chance.

i have all the legal Documents

 

[Rocky]

I think you misunderstood everything I said. I have no interest in "replacing" the katana, I said I'd like to see if you could improve upon the design. I don't care if you think it's sacrilege, and go all emo on me for suggesting it - I am curious whether modern technology could improve upon an already exquisite weapon, and could care less that you feel its history makes it "wrong" to do so.

Unless you've studied materials in general at some point, please don't say you can't have two materials behave similarly, but have one be an improvement. With modern technology we could create alloys that are perfect for the creation of a blade like the katana, and that's what interests me. Can an already excellent weapon be made better by involving modern technology?

It wouldn't necessarily take less time, and the quality would likely be even higher than that of the current old katanas. Sure, it would be a different weapon, I never said it wouldn't be. If you want to be pedantic, go somewhere else. Would the weapon be any less of a work of art? Doubtful. The difference in material would allow a brand new appearance in terms of colour and pattern of the blade, and this would in turn allow a different kind of decoration and artistry. Different doesn't have to be bad.

1.) I never said anything about sacrilege, nor have I gone "all emo". Could you improve on a Katana by adding a laser kitty launcher (think about it), perhaps - but why would you want to?

2.) "Behave similarly" != "The same" I don't need to study materials (I did study chemistry for a time, just FYI). Once again, if you're going to use modern technology to make a new weapon, make a new weapon. Why use dated designs with modern technology, with modern technology you could design a more exquisite, beautiful, powerful, whatever sword.

3.) I think I'll stay here to be quite honest, I'm entitled to my opinion and if it happens to disagree with yours (it often does) and you can't handle it then maybe you're the one who should go elsewhere. A modern day Katana with super awesome modern technology and special alloys and laser kitty launchers is no more a piece of art than my toaster. A Katana from medieval Japan is a piece of art for it's historical value. Just like a piece of pottery from ancient Egypt was no more than a piece of pottery when it was created, but in the hands of someone today it is a piece of art and part of the history of mankind.

4.) Do you need a hug? You sound like you need a hug.

 

[-Origin]

Sweet tapdancing Jehova.

.....Laser Kitty Launcher?! There needs to be one of those. Now. NOW.

 

[Rocky]

I may know a guy who could make it happen. You need to supply the kitty's though.

 

[-Origin]

I know a guy who knows a guy who's a giant pussy. Will that do?

 

[Rocky]

Is that guy you? If so, we could strike a deal.

 

[Avenger]

1.) I never said anything about sacrilege, nor have I gone "all emo". Could you improve on a Katana by adding a laser kitty launcher (think about it), perhaps - but why would you want to?

Way to not get the point.

2.) "Behave similarly" != "The same" I don't need to study materials (I did study chemistry for a time, just FYI). Once again, if you're going to use modern technology to make a new weapon, make a new weapon. Why use dated designs with modern technology, with modern technology you could design a more exquisite, beautiful, powerful, whatever sword.

Again, way to not get the point.

3.) I think I'll stay here to be quite honest, I'm entitled to my opinion and if it happens to disagree with yours (it often does) and you can't handle it then maybe you're the one who should go elsewhere. A modern day Katana with super awesome modern technology and special alloys and laser kitty launchers is no more a piece of art than my toaster. A Katana from medieval Japan is a piece of art for it's historical value. Just like a piece of pottery from ancient Egypt was no more than a piece of pottery when it was created, but in the hands of someone today it is a piece of art and part of the history of mankind.

Still not getting it, eh?

First of all, the steel I am referring to is at least a good five hundred years old. The "technology" that we're talking about, it's about as technologically advanced as a musket or even less so (considering how old it likely is). It's just that we couldn't figure out how to replicate it before now, because the art of creating that kind of steel was lost.

Adding nanomaterials to the Japanese steel would not make the Japanese steel all that different. It would give the Japanese iron and steel greater durability and strength, allowing the sword to be either sharper, or tougher while maintaining the same sharpness. Whether you find that interesting or not, well, I don't really care. This has been my interest since I posted the article, and all you've done about it is ***** about how you can't change history and that you "can't" make a modern katana or attempt to improve upon the design.

Fact of the matter is that you're probably right, a new weapon would likely be better. But we already have those. A .38 caliber gun would be better. But that's not the point, and you've been missing it for a while.

 

[Rocky]

When you consistently fail to get my point, I fail to see why I should make an effort to get yours. I think I've made my stance on this topic and this thread quite clear. I'll continue discussing swords (because swords are awesome and it's the internet - Thanks Eon for making that clear ) but I'm done arguing with you.

 

[Damaera]

I think Avenger needs a hug.

 

[Eon]

Seriously what is up with the internet and getting all butt-hurt about swords