Speaking My Mind

MC

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I've always been someone who followed the rules on this forum. I followed the rules to fullest extent, rarely breaking them. I even try helping the moderators and administrators by reporting bad posts that are breaking the rules. However, I have been warned a few times during my stay here at the forums, but I always apologized and told the moderator/administrator, "I'll do whatever it takes not to do it again". While that might seem extreme since the only warnings I received were for acting like a moderator, I meant what I said.

So, with that said, take the following for what it's worth from someone who doesn't like to break the rules.

During my entire stay here at the forums, I constantly kept myself restrained. Whenever a discussion came up regarding religion or politics, I did my best to keep myself from going all out. I did it to follow the rules and not to sound like I'm flaming another person's opinion. However, there's only so much one could restrain before having to bar yourself from replying again. I can understand how discussions regarding religion and politics should be civilized, I feel that a good majority of them have, but were closed anyway. I guess it's just a matter of opinion as to what is considered civilized.

If you want to know what my opinion of what a civilized discussion is, watch a few episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher. Bill Maher goes full out, speaking his mind with no restraint, bashing everyone lining themselves up in his sights. However, despite all the "flaming", it brings out the best in the argument and exposes the idiots and one-sided thinkers for who they are. Many of which refuse to think about their beliefs, opinions and stances from a different angle.

Then you have issue of flaming. The issue being what is considered flaming. I've been on a lot of forums and flaming to me is someone saying this:

**** you, you ****ing idiot, you're really stupid, you don't know what you're talking about.
And just leaving it at that without giving their own opinion on the matter. Somebody saying something like this:

Look, you need to open your eyes and look at what everyone is telling you. Instead of being completely oblivious as to what everyone is telling you, you need to realize George Washington did not cut down a cherry tree nor could he not tell a lie.
Which isn't flaming. Besides, if someone was saying the latter of the two quotes, then why punish those trying to carry on a good conversation? There will always be idiots like that every discussion. You just ignore them or tell them off. Not to mention a lot of forums leave those idiots to be destroyed by the other forum members.

The thing about arguments is there needs to be arguing, otherwise nothing will get done, nothing will be learned, no one will change. Simply sitting there agreeing to disagree isn't enough. You need to speak your mind to the fullest extent, with no hesitation. Unable to do so will leave you without being tested by others, thus leaving you exactly where you are, not advancing a step forward towards knowledge or wisdom.

I'm all for self-improvement. I read a lot of books on Martial Arts philosophy, Martial Arts, a few fictions books here and there. But what good is it if that knowledge can never be tested if I'm afraid to speak my mind to the fullest extent?

Anyway, this whole thing with Zeonix that popped up recently isn't why I'm writing this. I didn't come here on his behalf or to relay any messages from here. I'm merely speaking my own mind, which is something I rarely do on these forums. Interesting enough, this is the only forums where I restrain myself from speaking my mind. I'm not trying to cause trouble, I'm not trying to start a rebellion, I'm just speaking my mind.

I wish I could write more and speak my mind clearer, but this is the first time I've come close to speaking the fullest extent of my mind on this forum. But, believe me when I say, I'm just getting starting.
 
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well, I respect that everyone has it's own opinion. It is pretty unfair when U can't say Ure own opinion, or getting warned when U do. And on the other side, this forum has the least strictness of all other forums I know for. On cb.NET, when U reply off topic U're getting warned taht moment. So, I think U should speak Ure mind. That is what are forums maden for. SO, ppl can comment, crit, talk, AND ARGUE! BUT! Im fully agreed that rulz should stop political talks coz IMO politics is all messy and stupid and these coversations are going nowhere. And it is true, I noticed U weren't in any nationalistic, or racest or political talk. And it is true U R helping the n00bs. so.... Let everyone SPEAK THEIR MIND!
 
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I suppose this is the time where everyone, no just a sole few... thinks they know what's best for a forum community.

It's almost as if people are creating a superficial and sensationalist scenario.

So, they can put their foot down, like we're on some "reality" TV show.
 
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I think that generally we let debate flourish until it degrades past a certain point, usually once a person gets emotionally involved. Look at the Transparent Frogs thread. We let that go without intervention until personal insults and feelings started getting stronger.

And honestly, debate threads aren't outlawed, just those of Political/Religious flavor. And while it's not an official stance, I will sometimes let threads of those natures go untouched until things get bad.

Personally? I'd love to see more debate and would love to see the community handle it well. It gives users that third dimension you don't normally get to see.

Also, MC's post is a good example of speaking your mind. I see no references to an ESF Forum police state or anything else other than constructive criticism of procedures here.
 

MC

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I suppose this is the time where everyone, no just a sole few... thinks they know what's best for a forum community.

It's almost as if people are creating a superficial and sensationalist scenario.

So, they can put their foot down, like we're on some "reality" TV show.
No, this is no reality show, this is real life. I can put my foot down whenever I feel it necessary and so can everyone else. Not everyone will agree with me, but I understand that and I have nothing against them for disagreeing. However, on this forum you have a greater authority than myself, so what I say probably has no barring on anything, which wasn't my intention in the first place to have.

I'm just fed up with having to retrain myself so much as to end up feeling as if I'm living a second life. You know why I do this? Because I don't want to say something that'll get me banned. That's my greatest fear, getting banned. Despite everything I've been saying, I still don't want to get banned.

Deman said:
I think that generally we let debate flourish until it degrades past a certain point, usually once a person gets emotionally involved. Look at the Transparent Frogs thread. We let that go without intervention until personal insults and feelings started getting stronger.

And honestly, debate threads aren't outlawed, just those of Political/Religious flavor. And while it's not an official stance, I will sometimes let threads of those natures go untouched until things get bad.

Personally? I'd love to see more debate and would love to see the community handle it well. It gives users that third dimension you don't normally get to see.

Also, MC's post is a good example of speaking your mind. I see no references to an ESF Forum police state or anything else other than constructive criticism of procedures here.
I agree that the "Transparent Frogs" discussion did get crazy and needed intervention, which the moderators did give a few warnings but despite that everyone still went off on a tangent against J-Dude.
 
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I agree that we must speak out our minds. But if we do so then we should defenitly keep enough of our minds in controll not to start directly flamming.

Everyone has their opinion. And everyone reacts difrently to someone bashing it.

The said thread about the frogs showed that nicely.

J-Dude is the person who is allways right in his mind. Thats waht upsets the others so tehy started ganging up against him. And when they saw they arnt getting nowhere they pulled out the heavy artillery.

Now if we can simply avoid using the heavy artilery we could get a few better discussions going on round here.

So i say that when we get it out of our heads to start attacking someone just cause he doesnt want to change his opinion (weather right or wrong) then i dare say we can have as much relligion and politics discussions as we want.

But just speaking ones mind out shouldnt be a problem.


@Lukyas So a forum that allows a topic that is made totally for spam is strict. I mean if you want to spam do it in there. And leave the other threads alone
 
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I would LOVE to have more political/religious debates.

But people can be closed minded or immature. Certain users on this forum can't have a debate without being venomously sarcastic or just lash out at someone's intelligence. You would think that they'd think "oh, this might close the topic, better be careful" but no, the only goal they have is drilling the opponent into the ground.

Then there is the matter with religion, which is even trickier. One who who-heartedly follows their belief is not allowed to question it. No matter the logic and points boughten up, there is no "I see where you are coming from", only what they are taught to believe.

The same goes for the non religious (mainly the atheists) who deny the idea of a god without any solid proof to say there is absolutely none. Again, open mindedness must be present on both sides.
 

MC

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I agree that we must speak out our minds. But if we do so then we should defenitly keep enough of our minds in controll not to start directly flamming.

Everyone has their opinion. And everyone reacts difrently to someone bashing it.

The said thread about the frogs showed that nicely.

J-Dude is the person who is allways right in his mind. Thats waht upsets the others so tehy started ganging up against him. And when they saw they arnt getting nowhere they pulled out the heavy artillery.

Now if we can simply avoid using the heavy artilery we could get a few better discussions going on round here.

So i say that when we get it out of our heads to start attacking someone just cause he doesnt want to change his opinion (weather right or wrong) then i dare say we can have as much relligion and politics discussions as we want.

But just speaking ones mind out shouldnt be a problem.


@Lukyas So a forum that allows a topic that is made totally for spam is strict. I mean if you want to spam do it in there. And leave the other threads alone
I don't think people attacked J-Dude because he wouldn't change his opinion, it was just that sometimes when asked a question, he would just start preaching about how we're going to Hell for not believing in God. That's the kind of thing discussions regarding religion and politics don't need. Don't get me wrong, I give J-Dude credit for sticking with his beliefs and I don't have anything against him. It's just when someone shows weakness (in this case not replying to questions with an answer), people attack that weakness. That's how arguments are. Someone shows a weakness, everyone exploits it. In doing so, the people attacking the weakness gets their foot in the door.

Then you have those who just say something really stupid who are pretty much asking to be picked apart. Why shouldn't they be picked apart? I know how far flaming can go, I've been on enough forums to know that much but sometimes a person just needs to be picked apart. If they refuse to learn then they are at a loss. I get picked apart pretty frequently in other forums but I don't start getting my speedo in a bunch and start cursing at every single person. I take what they say into consideration and learn from it. If people refuse to learn from it, then once again it's their loss. Most people aren't asking for the one their picking apart to change completely, just to look at things from a different perspective other than that person's own.

Like I stated before, I'm all for self-improvement. I'm not going to be biased or arrogant to those who know more than me. I'm going to listen to what they say and take it into consideration. Believe it or not, that's exactly what I did with the "Transparent Frogs" discussion. Regardless of my stance on religion, I took everything J-Dude and everyone else said into consideration.

I have a feeling that's why the forums are falling apart. People who post here are pretty much barred from speaking their minds, thus scaring off newly registered members. I would really love this forum to get the spark back that it once had but at this point it seems near-impossible.
 
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I have a feeling that's why the forums are falling apart. People who post here are pretty much barred from speaking their minds, thus scaring off newly registered members. I would really love this forum to get the spark back that it once had but at this point it seems near-impossible.
I've been mulling the issue of how things end up appearing to be on shaky ground (which seems to occur on a fairly regular cycle, I might add) for more than a couple of years, now.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple an issue of either barring or opening discussion on complex, mature matters. There simply isn't a cure-all for the symptoms that caused us (by "us", I mean the forum staff and all of its predecessors) to begin keeping a close eye on all heated discussions. Consider the main "credo" of this community, as intended by the team so many years ago - to offer a place where the players and supporters of the game (ESF) can meet in a respectful and fun atmosphere and discuss their experiences with the game, their problems with it, suggestions, and a bunch of random discussion on the side.

Unfortunately, the usage of involved, heated discussion, given the demographics we have here, is, at times, almost incompatible with that central credo. There are several people here who, for any number of reasons, cannot hold a discussion about a hot-button issue without resorting to a number of argumentative fallacies that, in addition to being poor form, end up rubbing several members the wrong way. In many cases, the cause isn't even argumentative fallacy, but deliberate insults used solely to support an otherwise weightless point. Now, if the community existed predominately of people in their 20's and 30's, things might take on a different flavor in here. However, that is not the case, and we have to anticipate that more than a few people are not going to see a pointed discussion as an item for intellectual consideration, but, instead, a challenge against their beliefs (be they spiritual, political, scientific, or whatnot). This isn't even exclusive to these forums. There's also the issue of where the more mature (both in age and attitude) users have gone over the last year or so; many of them were responsible for those discussions you may remember fondly.

Allow me to illustrate: over the summer, as many know, I was preparing to write the MCAT. In order to focus my studies, I signed up with a prep course offered by Kaplan (a company that makes its business on preparing students for standardized tests of all sorts). During one of my study breaks, I decided to check their forums for any random tips or ideas about the MCAT that I had not considered. In one thread, someone decided to step in and comment on why another student had been doing poorly in his preparing and was feeling anxious. He said, and I quote, "Well, maybe if you would accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you wouldn't be doing so poorly". Suffice it to say that more than a few insults followed that man's post. Certainly, if a group who is supposed to be as open to new ideas (post-secondary students) can degenerate on an issue that delicate, then the regular, casually-posting member of this forum is also capable of falling into that pit, as well. Indeed, we have read many such examples over the years.

I feel, at this point, that I should emphasize what Deman said, as I share his view. We aren't interested in choking off areas of discussion. Obviously, if that were the case, the "transparent frog" thread would likely not have made it past page 1. We are, however (and I readily admit this), very prompt about nipping such discussions in the bud when we feel that they are heading in the direction that the aforementioned thread did. Perhaps we end up killing off a few discussions that might have stayed on track, perhaps we were spot on in our prediction - we don't always have a perfect answer. Then again - and I don't mean to stir any religious debate, but I cannot find a more preferable metaphor - we aren't Popes; we are not infallible. However, we certainly don't act with haste to flex our e-muscles and choke off the community's leeway. That goes entirely against what we want to accomplish.

I feel, actually, that we've been comparatively lax about the heated discussions in the last year (compared to, say, the last 2 or 3 years). We no longer kill them on the basis on the title or first post - I'd call that much more lax, in fact.

That's about all I can squeeze out for now, heh. I just wanted to close by saying that I greatly appreciate how clearly and elegantly everyone is expressing their opinions in this thread. Management on this community is in no way a one-sided matter, left solely to a handful of people. Much more than half the battle must be fought by the community members outside of the mod squad.

EDIT - On the issue of speaking one's mind: you should never feel apprehensive about speaking your opinion and "getting banned" for it unless you know, all things considered, that it will be deliberately disrespectful to other members of the community. Above all else, that's what the majority of the rules were put in place for (sig and avatar restrictions are, obviously, another story). I, most certainly, didn't feel afraid that my superiors were going to issue me an MCA (moderator corrective action) for my post, even though it may run against what some of my contemporaries choose to conclude about the community and its regulations. Most certainly - and this is very applicable to members such as MC - you should not feel apprehensive about just clicking that "New Thread" button and going to town on some topic or some idea that you want to flesh out. Argument, as it is most literally defined, is not barred here. However, calling someone's intelligence or credibility into question over whether or not they choose to believe in God (or in an institution such as the church) is not proper argument - it's intolerance, and intolerance is disrespect. Obviously, that type of disrespect can run in either direction with respect to the above issue - I merely stated it as a matter of illustration.
 
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This might not have much to do with the topic, but I just wanted to point out that I feel inspired by 20 year olds who have such broad vocabularies. I really enjoy reading these kind of posts.

I was never a person to get into discussions over things other than anime and/or video games. If I do get into a discussion, most of the time my comments are overlooked, and aren't really noticed because of my shallow elaborations.

I always thought that MC was a mod, due to his contributing, and his consistent depth oozing posts.
 

MC

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Unfortunately, it's not as simple an issue of either barring or opening discussion on complex, mature matters. There simply isn't a cure-all for the symptoms that caused us (by "us", I mean the forum staff and all of its predecessors) to begin keeping a close eye on all heated discussions. Consider the main "credo" of this community, as intended by the team so many years ago - to offer a place where the players and supporters of the game (ESF) can meet in a respectful and fun atmosphere and discuss their experiences with the game, their problems with it, suggestions, and a bunch of random discussion on the side.
I don't mean to be rude but that was many years ago. This was back when ESF was much more active than it is now. Now, it's nearly dead despite the effort the team and dedicated members of the community have tried to do. So, since there really isn't a whole lot to discuss regarding ESF, that leaves the "random discussions" that were on the side to become the primary focus of the forums.

Unfortunately, the usage of involved, heated discussion, given the demographics we have here, is, at times, almost incompatible with that central credo. There are several people here who, for any number of reasons, cannot hold a discussion about a hot-button issue without resorting to a number of argumentative fallacies that, in addition to being poor form, end up rubbing several members the wrong way. In many cases, the cause isn't even argumentative fallacy, but deliberate insults used solely to support an otherwise weightless point. Now, if the community existed predominately of people in their 20's and 30's, things might take on a different flavor in here. However, that is not the case, and we have to anticipate that more than a few people are not going to see a pointed discussion as an item for intellectual consideration, but, instead, a challenge against their beliefs (be they spiritual, political, scientific, or whatnot). This isn't even exclusive to these forums. There's also the issue of where the more mature (both in age and attitude) users have gone over the last year or so; many of them were responsible for those discussions you may remember fondly.
In my opinion, there's is almost no difference between someone who's 13 than someone who's 20. Even if the community was primarily composed of adults, I doubt that would do anything different than how it is now. I've seen adults argue no different than 13 year olds do, but at the same time I've seen 13 year olds who argue like a teacher would (I had a lot of teachers who knew how to argue).

Even if the moderators and administrators do close threads in the best interest of those arguing, why close the thread and punish everyone? If a person feels offended or challenged and wants to voice their opinions on the matter, then that's fine. If they want to take it to a personal level and start bickering like a little kid, then the moderators or administrators should take care of that person rather than the discussion at hand. We don't discuss these things to make people feel better and as you already know, most of us don't sugar coat our opinions either. If the person feels offended then it seems that the problem isn't with the discussion but themselves. J-Dude for example got offended very quickly, but why? If he has so much faith in his beliefs and knows they're true, then why would he be offended by what someone else said? That's just telling me he doubts his own beliefs. However, that didn't seem to be the case. The case seemed to be he rather dismissed everything we said in favor of his own, citing what he believes as superior to our own. Sure, there's no problem with that. Everyone in that thread pretty much declared their beliefs are superior to J-Dude's beliefs.

It wasn't much of an argument towards the end since he started to merely bash everyone for not believing in what he believed. He didn't try defending himself, but rather tried to make himself feel secure by saying that we were going to Hell and he was going to Heaven.

Not to mention he did state a few times that he was done with the discussion, but wouldn't you know it he still replied anyway.

Allow me to illustrate: over the summer, as many know, I was preparing to write the MCAT. In order to focus my studies, I signed up with a prep course offered by Kaplan (a company that makes its business on preparing students for standardized tests of all sorts). During one of my study breaks, I decided to check their forums for any random tips or ideas about the MCAT that I had not considered. In one thread, someone decided to step in and comment on why another student had been doing poorly in his preparing and was feeling anxious. He said, and I quote, "Well, maybe if you would accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, you wouldn't be doing so poorly". Suffice it to say that more than a few insults followed that man's post. Certainly, if a group who is supposed to be as open to new ideas (post-secondary students) can degenerate on an issue that delicate, then the regular, casually-posting member of this forum is also capable of falling into that pit, as well. Indeed, we have read many such examples over the years.
It's not that the forum is capable, it's just the individual. The forum doesn't make the forum, the people make the forum. The only way the forum can fall into said pit is everyone just went out of their way to bash every single person who had an opinion different than their own. That's not the case here.

I feel, at this point, that I should emphasize what Deman said, as I share his view. We aren't interested in choking off areas of discussion. Obviously, if that were the case, the "transparent frog" thread would likely not have made it past page 1. We are, however (and I readily admit this), very prompt about nipping such discussions in the bud when we feel that they are heading in the direction that the aforementioned thread did. Perhaps we end up killing off a few discussions that might have stayed on track, perhaps we were spot on in our prediction - we don't always have a perfect answer. Then again - and I don't mean to stir any religious debate, but I cannot find a more preferable metaphor - we aren't Popes; we are not infallible. However, we certainly don't act with haste to flex our e-muscles and choke off the community's leeway. That goes entirely against what we want to accomplish.
I understand that the moderators and administrators are no different than myself (in the since we're all Humans). However, even though the moderators or administrators aren't interested in choking off areas of discussion, it seems that they are from a regular forum user's perspective.

In addition to what I've said so far, I've always had a gut feeling about some of those in the management positions on this site. While a good portion of them I have no problem with, others I just get a weird feeling about.

Synth for example replied as if I didn't know what I was talking about. Sure, I can agree that sometimes I don't know what I'm talking about. However, regardless of his position here, his reply came off as one of those "stupid" posters I refer to from time to time. His reply had nothing to do with the discussion at hand, but rather seemed to be one made out of being offended. If that's the case, then I apologize for offending you.

Now, this is just one of my gut feelings again, but whenever some replied to this thread, Phobius created a new thread or made a reply in another thread. I'm not assuming anything, but I'm someone who questions things. I find it odd that despite he lack of activity and posting on the forum, that he decided to do it after I created this thread. Once again, I'm not assuming anything.

This might not have much to do with the topic, but I just wanted to point out that I feel inspired by 20 year olds who have such broad vocabularies. I really enjoy reading these kind of posts.

I was never a person to get into discussions over things other than anime and/or video games. If I do get into a discussion, most of the time my comments are overlooked, and aren't really noticed because of my shallow elaborations.

I always thought that MC was a mod, due to his contributing, and his consistent depth oozing posts.
Don't worry, I doubt your posts go unnoticed. If they do go unnoticed then make sure everyone knows it by replying again.
 

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On the topic of not censoring things and speaking ones mind, where is the "What do you miss" topic? I miss it (pun intended).
 

MC

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If you go into ESF Chat, you'll see the thread, but it's titled:

You know what I miss? (Need Maj/Cuc to review) ~phobius

So, to state the obvious, it's undergoing review.
 
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I don't mean to be rude but that was many years ago. This was back when ESF was much more active than it is now. Now, it's nearly dead despite the effort the team and dedicated members of the community have tried to do. So, since there really isn't a whole lot to discuss regarding ESF, that leaves the "random discussions" that were on the side to become the primary focus of the forums.
And I don't mean to sound overly conservative, but the team hasn't (at least overtly or directly) stated that they've wanted the aim of the community to be any different. Even if the user base chooses to steer the aim of the community to a different end, it doesn't invalidate the focus on respect and on maintaining a certain atmosphere. I don't mean to suggest that you were implying that respect between users should be tossed out the nearest window, but my point wasn't to emphasize the focus of the community on the game that created it; it was to emphasize that the community was designed to be populated by users who are tolerant and respectful.


MC said:
In my opinion, there's is almost no difference between someone who's 13 than someone who's 20. Even if the community was primarily composed of adults, I doubt that would do anything different than how it is now. I've seen adults argue no different than 13 year olds do, but at the same time I've seen 13 year olds who argue like a teacher would (I had a lot of teachers who knew how to argue).
I will definitely not dispute that, as it is a matter of personal experience. I've, too, met a few younger folks who could hold their own in an argument - perhaps not to the extent of the people you might know. As our experiences are what color our judgment, I'm a bit less optimistic about how eloquent younger people can be in an argument. After all - I wasn't the most persuasive or composed youth, so I cannot expect everyone else at that age to be. However, as I said, that's a matter of personal judgment, so it should probably be left where it is.

MC said:
Even if the moderators and administrators do close threads in the best interest of those arguing, why close the thread and punish everyone? If a person feels offended or challenged and wants to voice their opinions on the matter, then that's fine. If they want to take it to a personal level and start bickering like a little kid, then the moderators or administrators should take care of that person rather than the discussion at hand. We don't discuss these things to make people feel better and as you already know, most of us don't sugar coat our opinions either. If the person feels offended then it seems that the problem isn't with the discussion but themselves.
I, personally, do not terminate discussions immediately as a matter of course. I generally give several warnings to the people who might be causing a few too many hiccups, outlining the ramifications of his/her actions clearly before acting. Until such time as I can ban individual users from individual threads, though, there remains the issue of the trouble-maker(s) returning and racking up warning after warning in the same discussion. While it is, indeed, the user's responsibility to realize that continuing down the same, blind-ending path will lead to a vacation, I don't generally like to encourage users to consider blowing their chance to stick around the community by giving them an inch; most of the time, they'll just take a mile, throw the discussion off of the beaten path, and get themselves tossed out. We can try isolating and removing problem users from discussions and see what happens, now that the community dynamic (possibly) has changed.

MC said:
The only way the forum can fall into said pit is everyone just went out of their way to bash every single person who had an opinion different than their own. That's not the case here.
And keeping it that way isn't exactly a simple science; you'll just have to take my word on that. Not everyone is as interested in legitimate discussion (and argument) as you are. While I might not be as skilled a practitioner of group psychology as the fictitious Hari Seldon (I recommend Asimov's Foundation Trilogy to any sci-fi fans), I do like to think that I, as well as several others, have at least curbed some of the behavior that would lead to falling into the pit I described previously. There have been (and still likely are) people whose definition of argument is to, and I paraphrase, "defeat every differing stance". Offering viable alternatives to explaining some item is what argument is about. Argumentation does not require persuasion. Some people will not accept that simple axiom. I do believe that, among other things, I should be concerned with keeping those people a safe distance from discussions that are, otherwise, successful arguments.

MC said:
I understand that the moderators and administrators are no different than myself (in the since we're all Humans). However, even though the moderators or administrators aren't interested in choking off areas of discussion, it seems that they are from a regular forum user's perspective.
Then let me offer my personal assurance that it's the absolute last thing we want (though, in all honesty, I can only really offer complete assurance that it's what I don't want. I can't completely cover for every staff member, at the end of the day). I've been accused, from both sides, of choking off discussions. That, alone, should tell you that the staff simply doesn't want it to happen (frankly, neither do I; despite the accusations I just mentioned, I'm always looking for rock-solid justification to make discussions limitations far less stringent).
 

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That's the thing that tends to bother me. While I do understand that moderators and administrators are no different than myself (once again in the sense we're Human), every moderator and administrator seems to have their own agenda. I know you're someone who doesn't get involved in threads unless it's absolutely necessary, there's others that'll jump in at the first hint of the argument becoming heated. This leads to the discussion to be prematurely closed.

Not to pick on Synth again, but what he said in this thread isn't what a moderator should be doing. What he said bugged me, but it wasn't the first time that I can recall where he gave a reply similar to that before. He seems to be one of the moderators with his own agenda. While I'm not trying to get him in trouble and I definitely don't have a problem with him, it just bugs me that he came in here assuming I don't know what I'm talking about and assuming I'm trying to start a rebellion or something. I don't know. I tend to get bothered by those who assume things about me.

Another thing that led me to question a few of the moderators was the thread that was titled "You know what I miss?". For some reason it was deleted. While I don't like to make assumptions myself, I have a feeling it had to do with Zeonix becoming to topic of the thread. I know there was a heated debate between dan_esf_fanatic and spunky, but dan_esf_fanatic was merely backing up what he said which spunky challenged. Is Zeonix such a taboo that even the mere mentioning of his name is prohibited? I don't know why he was banned, but that's not what I'm asking. When speaking about being able to speak our minds, it seems that when Zeonix is mentioned, we can't speak our minds. While it did spark that debate, the thread could've been closed, those arguing could've been warned or banned instead of deleted or moved somewhere out of regular forum member's views.

Whether it's true that some moderators and administrators just don't like him remains unseen, but that shouldn't forced upon those who had no problem with him and actually liked him. The same could be said about anyone who's been banned from these forums, regardless of their crime.

Just to get this off my chest, I know there's a lot of you out there, reading this that do have something to say on the matter. I know I'm not the only one who wants to speak their mind. Say something. Give us something to discuss in depth instead of letting me and Majin_You do all the work. While I started this thread under the premise of speaking my mind, I also did it to get others to speak theirs as well. I figured I might as well take the first step, but it seems only a small few have decided to take it.
 
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If I do get into a discussion, most of the time my comments are overlooked
Heh, I know what you mean, I often tell myself why I bother actually posting here.

Concerning the topic, my first experience on this forum (not counting my short lived stint years ago) was me speaking my mind concerning the open beta, granted I didn't mince words, and could have been more constructive about it, but the response from a certain moderator was nothing short of childish and it wasn't until Pcjoe intervened that the topic was re-opened, so early on it felt to me that speaking your mind didn't just get you reprimanded, it got you ridiculed.

Anyway, just felt like getting that off my chest.
 
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most of the time my comments are overlooked, and aren't really noticed because of my shallow elaborations.
same with me, also, most of the topics I post in shortly die after my post or on my post. THAT is my version of closing a topic myself... :p
 

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same with me, also, most of the topics I post in shortly die after my post or on my post. THAT is my version of closing a topic myself... :p
Is that why you're posting here? I'm onto you.

Slightly more on topic, I personally feel people should be able to post comments like this without feeling like they've done something wrong or that they'll be warned.
 
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Is that why you're posting here? I'm onto you.

Slightly more on topic, I personally feel people should be able to post comments like this without feeling like they've done something wrong or that they'll be warned.
Warning for whatever the hell rule I feel like coming up with. I'll edit it in later. :p
 
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I say we allow religious/political discussions for two weeks.

We don't give out any warning for flaming, or close any threads.

And when people are fed up with each other, we'll see if your opinions change.
 

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