Seattle cop punches teenage girl in the face for being an idiot.

[Spunky]

Read a thread before posting.

 

[Zeonix]

He was exercising caution with the first girl. When the second girl came up and shoved him, it was no longer about control, it was about defense. Another thing to keep in mind is that women generally act on emotion, not logic. You can't apply a logical mind when dealing with a woman because they generally aren't rational under stress like most men. They act purely on emotion. The smallest angry woman can knock you out as fast as the heaviest man. That's just the way they are. In a fight, anger is as good as bravery.

No he wasn't. He was fumbling around with the first girl. He struggled for a good minute when attempting to arrest her before the girl in pink even showed up.

I'm sure you're quite the ladies' man and you've had plenty of experience dealing with women, but the rest of this paragraph is arrogant, chauvinistic trite. The smallest woman will not knock you out as fast as the heaviest man unless the man has below average strength. Anger in a fight is a sure way to get your ass kicked by someone trained to stay cool and collected in a physical confrontation. I'm sure you already know this from your cage fighting days.

It's part of every cop's training. My brother had to take a six week class on just that. He says the cop used the best judgement he could have. Cops are trained for every possible situation. My brother described the use of force matrix to me earlier.

Then he showed a complete lack of skill in his inability to subdue the first girl before the second could show up. He needs to be retrained.

Level 1: presence. Your mere presence is a show of force. When you show up to control a situation, the mere sight of an officer approaching is enough to calm most people down.

Level 2: command. Let's say the person doesn't calm down. "You sir/ma'am, calm down and stand over here."

Level 3: touch. The person doesn't calm down, but continues to argue or whatever they're doing that they shouldn't be doing. "Sir/ma'am, calm down and stand over here." This time you grab their arm, and try to lead them away from the situation.

Level 4: control. The person actively resists your touch. Now it's time to use physical force. You'll notice in the video, the first girl was struggling, but not in a way so as to endanger the cop. He knew he wasn't in any danger, he had both of her arms. He didn't want to hurt her. Of course he could have put her in a hold, but that would hurt her, and as you said, she's just a teenage girl.

Level 5: deadly force. Speaks for itself. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Deadly+Force

When a cop arrives at a call, their minds go through all of this. They assess the situation and take the appropriate actions.

My brother spent about 40 minutes after that teaching me compliance techniques, which was fun. That cop could have put her in a hold and just slammed her on the ground, but he was being a gentleman. It's a teenage girl, she's being arrested on a jay-walking charge, not for a violent crime. He's not about to use force on her. He was holding her, she would have worn herself out eventually.

He had already pinned her against the car, and was attempting to arrest her but couldn't because he didn't have control of either of her arms, which was completely his fault. Pain compliance goes a long way to achieving your goals. As a police officer, your goal is not to lie on top of another person until s/he wears him/herself out. But if he can perform a wrist lock, and apply pressure as needed proportional to the amount of resistance she's offering, she'll eventually give in and the arrest will be made.

Here comes the girl in the pink shirt, being a *****, trying to protect her friend. Understandable, she was highly emotional, but she made the wrong move. You can see her friend trying to hold her back, which means someone else knew she was about to do something extremely stupid. She ignores her friend, walks up to the cop, and shoves him. That's assault.

This is where temper and intent come into play. Temper? Riled up. Intent? To separate the police officer from comrade. Which she accomplished. Her goal wasn't to injure the officer nor was it to escalate the confrontation. The officer made a conscious decision a good foot away from her to step in and swing. This was out of frustration, not out of a strict adherence to the rulebook. Why frustration? Watch the full video. Watch as he incompetently attempts to arrest the first one, and watch as she squirrels her arms out of his each and every time because he has no idea what he's doing.

Now, when you punch someone in the face, they're not likely to get back up and mess with you again, for two reasons. First, it hurts. Getting punched isn't fun. But it doesn't only hurt their face, it hurts their pride. It's demoralizing, they feel like less of a person. After he punched her, she was nowhere to be found. She ceased to be a threat and he was able to make both arrests without much resistance.

Yes, because the protector of the citizenry's job is to demoralize the populace and drive a wedge between cops and everyone else. What? Do you know what else would have worked? A slap. A slap works twofold. First, it stuns the person immediately. They don't understand why you slapped them rather than react more aggressively. Secondly, this actually does wound your pride, especially if done to a male. Do you know why the one who got punched was off in the distance wandering around like a fool? Because she was concussed. Its what happens when you have enough space to wind up and launch a rocket at someone's face. Was punching efficient? Yes. Was it the right tool for the job? No.

Have you ever had a black eye? It hurts like any other bruise. You can poke at it and it'll hurt, but it's not like it's constantly throbbing until it heals. It's a big bruise over your eye. Big deal. She wasn't permanently harmed. Believe it or not, cops are trained to punch people in the face in situations like these. He did absolutely everything right. Do you really think he wanted to hurt her? He probably feels like an ******* about it right now, but he had to do it, she assaulted him and was escalating the situation.

All of this is irrelevant as it has absolutely nothing to do with what I stated, which was my preference in such a situation. Did he want to hurt her? ....yes. That's generally the goal when punching someone in the face. He didn't have to do it. He could have easily maced her, which is the appropriate non-lethal response, or he could have, surprise, used compliance techniques on her instead of the one who offered little resistance outside of not letting herself get cuffed. He opted for defensive tactics, however, which is what one uses when they feel their life is being threatened. As in they think theres a good possibility of them not making it out of the situation alive. There's no ****ing way he thought that for even a second.

Ok, you say people may have been incited to intervene. The girl was already intervening, he had to make an example. What would have happened if she had shoved him and he did absolutely nothing? "This cop is a pussy, he's not going to do anything." Nobody sees him as an intimidating force anymore. If this teenage girl can push him around, what's to stop others from trying to intervene as well?

Again, mace. Compliance techniques. What would have happened if the gawking public had decided to take a more participatory role after watching the cop strike her? He'd be dead. He's lucky he's in Seattle, I suppose. Do you know what would have made me think this cop is a joke and not intimidating in the least? His inability to arrest the first girl when given ample opportunity.

He could have let the first suspect go, or he could have tazed her. Those were really his only two options. Tazing is far worse than getting punched in the face, and if he had been attacked by a third person while tazing the second and holding the first, he couldn't holster his weapon fast enough to react. He would have dropped it. Now there's a weapon on the ground that can be used against him.

Do cops in Florida just not carry mace or what?And again, the entire situation could have been avoided in the first place had he used his notional training.

If he had done absolutely nothing and just took it, he would have lost all control, and control is the most important thing when you're surrounded by people who are potentially hostile to you. You are a dominating force, and you have to remain as intimidating as possible for your own safety. This is why cops still carry asps. They're rarely used to attack someone. The mere sight and sound of an asp extending, and the heavy presence of the officer holding it, is enough to deter most suspects. Asps are also useful tools for the same reason they're good at breaking bones.

Her ability to intervene was a direct result of his prior failure, and the lack of control he had of the situation. He lost control. If backup had not shown up, as it did, and this had taken place in a place where jaywalking isn't a priority, he probably wouldn't have made it out alive.

Rocky, he was already dealing with another girl. If you're dealing with ONE PERSON, that would be perfectly correct, but he wasn't, so that would be retarded. He was using less force with the first girl. When the second shoved him, it became a defensive situation. Did you even read my post?

Defensive tactics does NOT mean you got pushed so now its time to start taking *****es out.

Nobody has agree on this except you and Zeo, and even Zeo agrees punching her easily deescalated the situation. If you watch the video, he's shoved away from the first girl. They're both in front of him. He can clearly see her until he goes to punch the girl in the pink shirt, at which point the other girl tries to get a hold on him from behind. After, you don't see the second girl anywhere in the video, and he goes back to dealing with the first.

At no point do I fail to understand that they're teenage girls. You're failing to understand that it's completely irrelevant that they're teenage girls. As I said, when fighting two people, the ONLY way to do it is to put one of them down as fast as possible, and that's what he did. He dealt with an emotional woman the same way he would have dealt with a man, with age playing nothing into it. The girl was as big as he was. He broke her spirit, and she stopped immediately.

Edit: Don't take this the wrong way, but you're a security guard. The situations you encounter in a mall or similar establishment can hardly be compared to what cops encounter on the street (especially in America). He did exactly as he was trained. He used the best judgement he possibly could have. Excessive force would have been following through with another blow, or proceeding to slam her on the ground after already retaking control. He broke her spirit and she ceased to be a threat to him.

Me and Rocky are also the only people in the thread actually trained to do this or a similar job.

What you fail to understand is he wasn't fighting two people. He was trying to detain one, was stopped, overreacted, and then continued to detain the first person. If I'm back in Afghanistan asking some dude a few questions, and we ask him to come with us because he has intel we require but his mother comes out and pushes me away while I'm trying to take him, am I going to punch her in the face? **** no. That ****s retarded. Do you know what I would have done that this cop could have done? Speak directly to the people around. Take her, or there's going to be unnecessary trouble. If they fail to react, then you still don't punch her in the face. You make her compliant using soft techniques.

No cop will ever say another cop was wrong in public. They'll talk to each other about it, and say he was wrong in private, but never to someone who isn't one of them. That's how it is. That's how its always been. He could have detained the first girl with ease. He didn't. He allowed the situation to escalate, and then he took it to the next level by almost knocking the second chick out. Good job. You've set a precedent.

 

[Spunky]

Almost everything I've said has been referenced from my brother, who's currently earning a degree in Criminal Justice. He's learned from veteran and retired cops. Almost everything I know about law enforcement, I learned from my brother, who learned it from people who've done it or have been doing it for 15+ years.

This is one of those cases where I'll have to respectfully disagree because I don't feel you're necessarily wrong, but what I've learned makes more sense to me. Different people have different ways they would ideally handle situations like this. At this point, I'm starting to feel like it's one of those arguments that nobody can ever really win. I don't feel the cop stepped out of line. That's really what it boils down to in arguments like this. He did nothing wrong, just differently than you feel he should have, and that's fine. But that's not what cops are taught, at least in Florida.

Although, I just remembered that not every state requires you to go to school to become a cop. You're required to in Florida, but maybe not Washington. Even if he wasn't properly trained, that wouldn't change my opinion of how he handled the situation. If he did act in frustration, that's a different story, but I don't think he did.

 

[Zeonix]

Everything I've been taught on this subject to ensure I am capable of acting in a law enforcement capacity in addition to my established skills as an infantryman were passed on to me by both active and retired FBI agents, police officers, other Marines and US Marshals. The 4 or 5 I still keep in touch with agree with my assessment of the situation based on what they saw in the video.

This isn't so much a matter of opinion as it is protocol, and adherence to the continuum of force; what the cop knew at the time and what he thought would happen. Not once did he look around, and check to see if the crowd was turning against him. That wasn't on his mind. He didn't react the way he did because he was trying to keep everyone else in line. Getting pushed doesn't warrant throwing a punch. It doesn't even warrant mace, unless there are multiple confirmed aggressors. He wasn't fighting multiple people. He was barely even fighting one. He wasn't fighting for his life. He wasn't even in danger.

 

[Deathshot]

Its just going to turn out to be a "Racism" case, just like everything else. He was acting out of instinct. He wouldn't know if she were holding on to a weapon. Seattle police have it bad enough as is. They don't need even more bull**** from some dumbass teenage who thinks she is over the law.

 

[Brosiris]

I just want to say to people who think that the police officer should have put one of the girls into a lock;

A lock usually requires 1 to 2 hands. Pretty self explanatory. If one girl is resisting your arrest as a police officer, and the other is shoving you. Please, please, please tell me what you would have done in that situation. All I see from everyone here, except Spunky and Zeo is "the cop did the wrong thing because he was too excessive and should have done something less excessive." Yeah? Like what? Put one girl in a lock while the other girl shoved him? Tazed one girl while arresting the other? You know, because tazing is no where near as bad as punching.

If I put someone in a lock, and immobilize them, and then their friends come in and intervene, I'm screwed. If you don't agree with that, then either post what you would have done that was better, or shut up because you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Zeonix]

If I had forgotten how to perform any number of arm locks, wrist locks and joint manipulations, and got myself into a situation where someone pushed me, I'd offer them one warning: Cease and desist or I will be forced to use non-lethal force. If she didn't comply, mace to the face. As she's on the floor or running around like a bull in a china shop, hopefully all of my close quarters training comes back to me, and I can place person 1 in an arm lock, detain her and place her in my vic. Then I'd take care of person 2, who may or may not be recovering at this point. Even if she is recovering, she won't want a second dose of my medicine. Verbal warnings will be followed by compliance techniques. If more people show up, and I feel my body is in danger, my tazer comes out and if that fails, I follow up with my baton and defensive tactics. If my life is in danger, I'm pulling my weapon, pushing the crowd far enough that I have stand off distance. Back up will arrive shortly. If they choose to riot before backup arrives, I'm getting in my vic and driving off.

But this entire post could have been avoided had I simply remembered how to quickly detain an individual.

 

[Grega]

I think she deserved it.

Resisting arrest, assaulting an officer and she gets off with an apology even. Get real. I myself would have tazed her just cause its 10 times worse than a punch.

 

[Brosiris]

If I had forgotten how to perform any number of arm locks, wrist locks and joint manipulations, and got myself into a situation where someone pushed me, I'd offer them one warning: Cease and desist or I will be forced to use non-lethal force. If she didn't comply, mace to the face. As she's on the floor or running around like a bull in a china shop, hopefully all of my close quarters training comes back to me, and I can place person 1 in an arm lock, detain her and place her in my vic. Then I'd take care of person 2, who may or may not be recovering at this point. Even if she is recovering, she won't want a second dose of my medicine. Verbal warnings will be followed by compliance techniques. If more people show up, and I feel my body is in danger, my tazer comes out and if that fails, I follow up with my baton and defensive tactics. If my life is in danger, I'm pulling my weapon, pushing the crowd far enough that I have stand off distance. Back up will arrive shortly. If they choose to riot before backup arrives, I'm getting in my vic and driving off.

But this entire post could have been avoided had I simply remembered how to quickly detain an individual.

I wrote another long essay but of course, the forum decided to kick me off again. But to make this post short: I agree with you.

 

[Chakra-X]

Well, considering the fine for jaywalking in Seattle is only $42. I can see how it went down.

"Ma'm, I'm going to have to fine you for jaywalking... maybe this $42 fine will remind you that you could've been killed."

"Please officer... I'll never do it again... I've got 6 kids and I can't even legally drink yet... I can't afford this fine... my lack of responsibility has my kids eating ramen noodles for dinner every night... $42 dollars is like 3 months of ramen noodles."

Her 6 foot girlfriend approaches.

"AWW HELL NAW... SHE AIN'T PAYING NO $42 DOLLAR FINE, THE PRESIDENT IS BLACK... AWW HELL NAW!"

[video=youtube;FFtw7qW7Vcw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw[/video]

lol So bad. So bad.

But I am not gonna act like the imagery of rowdy black girls acting out on a white police officer doesn't warrant racial overtones. Personally I'm a bit embarrassed since the image of black women is already less than stellar. Looking at the video now they should have calmed the **** down, but the punch, while not completely irrational, was to quick of a jump of force. I think he just got angry.

 

[Spunky]

Chakra's black, so that settles it.