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I just hate the way that everyone has such a defeatist attitude towards a ideal greater world... maybe in a few centuries when everyone realises conflict is a futile massive waste of money and life, people might start changing their tune. For now, I guess we might as well benefit from the boosts in economy it brings.

I sound so preachy heh... D:
 
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I, as much as the next pacifist, do not appreciate weapons (well, besides from the beauty of a sword and such). If the world suddenly had every single piece of weaponry disintegrated, it would not at all be negative for me. I'd likely go "WHOOP!".

My point was merely to show why weapons are being developed, and that there in fact, were, solid arguments for this to be done.
 
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I just hate the way that everyone has such a defeatist attitude towards a ideal greater world... maybe in a few centuries when everyone realises conflict is a futile massive waste of money and life, people might start changing their tune. For now, I guess we might as well benefit from the boosts in economy it brings.

I sound so preachy heh... D:
Conflict gives us a reason to compete technologically, and drives ingenuity. WW2 and the Cold War are perfect examples of an immediate crisis forcing us to break down all sorts of barriers. Yeah, we had killing in mind, but many of the technologies created for warfare have civilian applications. If we don't have a reason to push the envelope, we probably won't bother doing so.
 
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I can understand that it's made some technologies develop faster, however it has also made the severity of even the threat of attack much more scary, and therefore fuels the paranoia leading us to kill invade and enforce new rules and regulations, making it a catch 22 situation no matter how you look at it. The only real benefit I've seen from the past century of wars was the discovery of nuclear power.

People have coped with much poorer living conditions for thousands of years, in fact some people still have to live with the most basic of technologies due to war developments. While some of us enjoy the luxury of our dual core processors and Direct X 10 some of us have to cope with diseases from vital needs such as water, and pharmaceutical companies don't wish to invest in the cures because there's no money to be made from curing poor people. While you can say maybe, somewhere along the line after many wars have been fought and many wars have been won we'll have a way of feeding and curing those unfortunate people who are dying needlessly, if we spent the money that is invested in military development into helping them, we could help them today instead of watching generation after generation be killed for the sake of our comfort.
 
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I think "some technologies" is a bit too conservative, considering how much has come out of just those two wars alone. Would we even be in space had the Cold War not happened? There wouldn't have been any need to. We'd know even less than we currently do. Airplanes? Forget about it. Made popular during WW1, improved during WW2, and then transformed into the aircraft that we have today. Medical know-how that we currently enjoy? Forget about it, if the Nazis (who also built the first jet engine and v-1 rocket, mind you) weren't out there trying to take over the world.

War is terrible, yes. People die. Families are broken. Children starve. But it's also what advances human civilization. There have always been people who had more than others and exploited those people in order to ensure that they'd be part of a "higher class" or whatever the case may be. You can't change that unless you change human nature, and I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.

It's wonderful to think about a place where everyone is happy and there isn't a care in the world. It just isn't our reality and unless you're willing to die for that cause, it isn't going to come to pass. Ever. It's easy for people to say, "We should do this and that!" while they're sitting in the comfortable homes they curse, and living in the luxury they've come to hate, but when it comes down to good old fashioned action, people tend to take a seat and wait for that one person who's willing to take one for the team. That's all it really boils down to. Are you willing to give up everything you have, everything you know and love, for the benefit of humanity? If you're not out there recruiting people and informing people, chances are the answer is no.
 
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Yeah I know, we got some wonderful things from war. However, people still die. Details do not concern me when people die.

I find it so baffling you think we haven't reached the point now, with such good informative resources such as the internet, to realise that war is nothing more than futile in terms of real development, what matters is the work that is done and the passion behind that work, war in research terms, is just a firmly enforced work ethic.

Maybe I'm not doing so well preaching to the clinging remains of a 7 year old dbz forum, but that's why I want to be an artist, so I can at least try and reach people with some of my social commentary/criticism. Hey, I'm no Ghandi or John Lennon but I'll do my best to make some kinda difference.
 
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I'm not as fortunate as you to believe we can bring about a lasting peace by negotiating with people who have acquired power through distasteful means and have no intention of ever giving it up, especially not so people they don't know and never meet can have food on their plate. Is war wrong? It can be. It isn't a black and white issue. Anyone who tells you otherwise obviously doesn't understand war and the reasons for it. There are justified wars and there are unjustified wars.

"But people will die!"

In the short-term, yes. But think about how many more people will die if what is happening is allowed to continue. That's the difference between a justified war and an unjustified war.

And yes, the work that is done and the passion behind that work makes the magic happen, so to speak. I've yet to meet someone willing to do something for nothing, at the expense of their time and effort. When faced with a war, people feel like their lives are on the line, and so they work 10 times harder to "win" by creating technology we probably wouldn't have thought about creating or using had there not been an imminent. Their passion comes from self-preservation or the need to fight for the greater good or whatever they convince themselves is the truth.

As I said before, simply talking about it isn't going to make it happen. No one is actually willing to act and so we're all to blame for the evils in this world. We may not be actively perpetrating those evils, but we allow them to exist.

Perhaps I'm not touched by your sermon because I've heard it far too many times by far too many people who, in the end, don't intend on really doing anything. They're content with the illusion of activism, but aren't actually willing to give their life for the cause. And that's what it's going to take, really. If you want to topple modern society, you're probably going to get killed trying to accomplish it. For most, their lives are far too important to give up, even if it means saving 100 others. They'd be more that happy to take up positions of power and leadership, though, because they can send others to die for them. Surely that's the same thing as giving your life!

I understand that people want peace and quiet and for war to end and for world hunger to end and for disease to be wiped out. Those are all noble causes. Noble, but completely unrealistic. Unrealistic, not because it defies human nature, but because it defies nature itself. Even animals war against each other. They just don't possess the capability to take out half the world with them, but it's part of their nature. Want to cure every disease and feed every person? Alright, where do you intend on putting those people and how do you intend on feeding everyone? How do you equally distribute our collective wealth so that no one is left behind?

Then you have to throw in resource management. How much should one person be allowed to consume? How do you place limits on the amount any one person is allowed to consume? How do you revolutionize entire industries to lessen our consumption, and lessen our impact on the environment? How do we obtain the necessary resources to allow ourselves to research better technology in the first place when the person/country we're trying to obtain the resources from is unfair in their practices? How do we ensure all trade is fair and one country doesn't benefit more than the other?

There are far too many factors people aren't considering when saying "We must do this or that because it's right!", and 90% of the time, when faced with what they must give up in order to make it happen, they just aren't willing to give it all up.
 
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Yeah, free will, points of interests, and competition really make humanity complex. So many people have an agenda, and chances are many of them conflict, so an avoidance of conflict seems virtually impossible to me.

Is there really a way for every single person to have a house, TV, car, computer, and safe neighbor hood? Wouldn't people find something else that they are unsatisfied with? What would be the effects of the global economy, social classes, and business in general?

Unless some alien force holds a bigass gun to the Earth, I don't see world peace as realistic. Maybe a world consensus, if the right minds were at power, but even that is a pipe dream.



Now, this is a hypothetical, devil advocates questions, not reflecting my view, but I always wondered this out of curiosity:

Why should countries care about poor people?

I'm not talking low income, but starving Africa children "poor". Why should they care about Darfur? Are they going to contribute to the world? Maintain a better life style? Stop squabbling with each other? Is the only reason because "it's the right thing to do"? Should countries be obligated to demonstrate such altruism?

My answer to this is that I think compassion is needed for the human race to develop more positively. But really, that is close to "it's the right thing to do", but I think morals can be more important than a type of profit, even if it isn't a tangible benefit.
 
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There's a big difference between social and technological development. Both are important.
 
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Now, this is a hypothetical, devil advocates questions, not reflecting my view, but I always wondered this out of curiosity:

Why should countries care about poor people?

I'm not talking low income, but starving Africa children "poor". Why should they care about Darfur? Are they going to contribute to the world? Maintain a better life style? Stop squabbling with each other? Is the only reason because "it's the right thing to do"? Should countries be obligated to demonstrate such altruism?

My answer to this is that I think compassion is needed for the human race to develop more positively. But really, that is close to "it's the right thing to do", but I think morals can be more important than a type of profit, even if it isn't a tangible benefit.
In the case of Africa, a lot of them aren't even starving because we're not throwing food at them. They're starving because African warlords are holding back the food and using that pseudo-limited supply of food to control people. Want to know how I think we should handle that? A massive NATO invasion. Remove the cancer from Africa, help them rebuild, and do whatever it takes to keep them on their feet. That also means the western world should stop ****ing with Africa. I'm looking at you, France and Britain (and whenever we get a break from the ME, America).

This is an example of what I would deem a justified war. People would die in the short-term, but in the long-term, so many more would be saved.
 
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People have coped with much poorer living conditions for thousands of years, in fact some people still have to live with the most basic of technologies due to war developments. While some of us enjoy the luxury of our dual core processors and Direct X 10 some of us have to cope with diseases from vital needs such as water, and pharmaceutical companies don't wish to invest in the cures because there's no money to be made from curing poor people. While you can say maybe, somewhere along the line after many wars have been fought and many wars have been won we'll have a way of feeding and curing those unfortunate people who are dying needlessly, if we spent the money that is invested in military development into helping them, we could help them today instead of watching generation after generation be killed for the sake of our comfort.

more poors will make perfect soil for communism grow. and poor people rob the resource from worthy people in the rebel. and after so called the major enemies extinct they become another worthy class. then been overthrow again...recycle again and again...history just keept repeated itself.

poor people made communism and communism made them become another high class and been target by another poor class. but that just make it faster than capitalism and allow poor people to use violence.<you cant change it...>
 
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more poors will make perfect soil for communism grow. and poor people rob the resource from worthy people in the rebel. and after so called the major enemies extinct they become another worthy class. then been overthrow again...recycle again and again...history just keept repeated itself.

poor people made communism and communism made them become another high class and been target by another poor class. <you cant change it...>
If you look past the way he types, this was actually a profound post.
 
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In the short-term, yes. But think about how many more people will die if what is happening is allowed to continue. That's the difference between a justified war and an unjustified war.
Yes, but killing shouldn't happen in the first place, that is, before the war. When you're killing people to make others stop killing people, chances are you'll end up causing more harm than good. Just as the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right" tells us. That's why there are more unjustified wars than the justified ones. Hell, even justified wars can turn into unjustified ones during the war itself.

Even animals war against each other. They just don't possess the capability to take out half the world with them, but it's part of their nature.
As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), animals kill when they're threatened and when they're hungry. And I don't think that I ever saw, nor has it been documented, that multiple animals, wage war between two sides.
 
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So live and let die. That's your idea of justice. There are more unjustified wars than justified wars because the former are created so that the few may benefit, rather than the many. Example, we're not in Iraq for America. We're in Iraq for military contractors, Suits, and anyone else who stands to personally gain by genocide. I'm saying fight the justified wars, and don't create random wars just to line someone's pockets.

Chimps have been known to war against each other, commit murder, and use weapons (rocks and sticks, really) against monkeys and enemy chimps. People generally go to war when they feel threatened, too.
 
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I never said I could single handedly change the world through some epic heart warming speech on a forum... >_>

I'm just a little upset by the fact that everyone is so unwilling to even try to take a different look about such important things like this. Its an unrealistic dream that I doubt I'll ever see for filled in my lifetime, but I hope along the way I can at least get some people to see things just a little differently, not through peace fighting/tree hugging rose tinted goggles, but through a more objective more optimistic outlook on how the world could be. I think you do not understand the difference here between feeling some sense of achievement knowing you've communicated a good message which is entirely true to yourself, despite it's almost impossible in execution, and bitterly reinforcing the pessimistic, although patriotic and somewhat "realistic" view that we're doing something right through all of this wrong doing. I do not think being content with the current situation is what helps a society develop, similar to how finding no faults in the work you do will end up with you never getting better, being dissatisfied by your work constantly criticising and taking note of your mistakes is the best way to improve. There is nothing certain in the future and there is no reason to limit yourself by believing that there are such certainties.

This has all digressed from the thread's topic. My point all along though being that this is the prime example of how military development in one country does nothing but bring around fear in another, the stand-off situation may be great for those technological advances, but while people die I, cannot support that. No matter how well justified the cause It'll always be that way, because It's unnecessary in my eyes.

As for your post about communism, Hellrider I wasn't suggesting world wide communism at all was I? If you think I was then I'm sorry if I gave that impression, but as far as I'm concerned no government system have got it right yet, you'd do well to criticise capitalism as well for the hierarchy that it creates too. Infact, It's a perfectly natural trait throughout almost all life forms on the planet to have a hierarchy, but I'm hoping that humans can someday develop past that, despite the difficulties involved.
 
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I can't help it if my experiences have made me think in realistic terms when attempting to plan the future course of mankind. Thinking optimistically is great. It really is. But you're missing the part that connects the Now to your optimistic future. That's where my views come in. Do I believe we should have war? No. Do I believe we should be killing people for resources? No. Do I believe 2% of my country's population should control 90% of our wealth? **** no.

But that's the way it is and you have to work with what you've got. It doesn't make sense to me to repeat verses from Imagine, and hope I convince one person who convinces another who convinces another until they all meet and get high. It didn't work in the 60's and it isn't going to work now, because people really have nothing to gain by doing so and everything to lose. Even then, when you really think about it, the hippies got bent all out of shape because it was their lives on the line. They were getting drafted and they didn't want to die. The fact that the war was bull**** to begin with meant very little to them until it was their turn to jump into the meat grinder. That's why you have to plan in the long-term and understand the process that we'd need to undergo in order to make the final product, a utopian society, a reality. This is why I'm not preaching about a possible future. This is why I tell people what we can do now, right this very moment, to make changes. We can work our way down the line from there. But if people aren't even willing to make these small changes, to take action, then we're going to have to force change whether they want it or not. It's going to hurt, and people aren't going to like it, but sometimes the worst tasting medicine is what will save your life.

If you look past the word communism, hellrider made a very good point. How many times have we been in this situation? How many times have we "gotten sick" of all of "the evil" in the world and how many times have we risen up? Why are we back exactly where we started? What can we do to break this pattern and create real change?
 
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Jesus Christ...this thread is analyzing the ****ing human race...I've never seen **** like this 0_0
 
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It definately isn't watching Comedy Central and having Jon Stewert and Steven Colbert put us in some hypnotic comfort zone.

This is no laughing matter... we're being ostracized by the rich.
 
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I feel there should be laws against using more than 10 million dollars per year for personal benefit. If not less.
 
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It definately isn't watching Comedy Central and having Jon Stewert and Steven Colbert put us in some hypnotic comfort zone.

This is no laughing matter... we're being ostracized by the rich.
I miss them all the same =/.

But your second line confuses me a bit, or I should say has me curious.
 

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