Progress!

[sub]

As a note to team and testers, when one bitter user starts ranting about updates, you don't owe him an explanation.

When one bitter member? Excuse me? I'm acting like an ******* because I want the game to end up fun, not because I'm bitter. Having someone like myself point out everything wrong with the game is much more productive than someone saying "GREAT JOB!11!" everytime you post an update. If you don't want an opinon, close this thread.

At least David cares enough about the community and the direction in which the game is heading towards to explain certain aspects to us, rather than keep everything a secret until the very end. Thanks Dave.

 

[Pain]

Quite the contrary. Your opinion is fine, you are free to post it as often as you wish. I was simply pointing out that when people, such as yourself, are voicing said opinion, that we do not owe you an explanation or a more detailed response.

If you were to start complaining about, "I don't think feature X will be balanced", we don't have to jump at your whim and begin explaining everything about the feature you're complaining about.

I have no doubt that Dave wants to see the game succeed and indeed does care about the community, however, revealing such things before they are planned isn't productive, nor is it advised.

No one said we'd keep everything secret until the very end, this thread and the update it focuses on is proof enough of that.

 

[sub]

How is it not productive? I may not have played the version implemented into the beta version of 1.3, but I have played enough ESF to know what will and won't work.

ESF is a complicated game on it's own. When you start talking about adding two swoop modes [one of which will be charge to swoop, officially the worst idea ever] and more ways of traveling around, it's just adding difficulty to an already challenging game. The main reason no one sticks with ESF [And believe me, no one sticks with it] is because the learning curve is too high, having two swoop modes is going to make it more so. I don't need to play the 1.3 beta to realize this and I don't believe waiting until you finish implementing it to tell you that is very productive.

But alas, my opinion doesn't matter to you, does it? After all, you owe the people that play your game and keep it alive nothing, it would be foolish to throw your fans a bone and allow them to help make 1.3 better. Honestly, this is one of the few updates we've had in the two years 1.2 has been out and this seems like nothing but bad news for ESF. You can't blame me for wanting to know what direction the team wants to take the game.

 

[Kasey]

Nice. That PL thing is wild.
But for some reason mines in about 50% quality. Or it looks like it is.http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledwy5.png

 

[Pain]

This is exactly why it's not productive. You're making a lot of assumptions based on something that wasn't supposed to be let out yet.

You may twist my words as much as you like, fact is, just because you start crying doesn't mean we should tell you everything we have planned. Grow up a bit and learn that just because we don't reveal every single feature that's planned, or that we're currently testing, it somehow means we hate our fanbase. It's reasons exactly like this, that features are not revealed until we've thoroughly tested them and made sure they fit well into the game.

Now as far your opinion goes, believe it or not, we do look to the opinions of our fanbase to help guide our decisions, though we may not always broadcast it. And also, believe it or not, there is a difference between listening to opinions, and engaging in detailed discussion about features.

 

[Rayne]

First of all, we have to make assumptions with as little as we are told, which is that swooping is being charged and melee may be restricted to a dash. Out of nowhere, youve already implemented a drastic change in the entire game, without any hint leading up to it at this point. It shouldnt be any surprise that there are complaints.

How are you supposed to use our opinions if you never put anything like this into the design documents, or not so much as having a team member post the idea before going ahead with it? This is not just another new feature being added you should realise, personally Im afraid that my favorite game is going to be thoughtlessly changed for the worse. Of course its the teams right to keep the whole thing one huge surprise, but chances are youll end up dissapointing a lot of people.

 

[Chakra-X]

What's the problem with having two swoop modes? It shouldn't be that hard to learn how to swoop. Shoot, people may get creative with it and find a very convienent use for it (when it's completely done I mean, assuming it's much faster or durable than normal swoop).

Dashing seems like a good ide to me. It worked for Zone of the Enders, why not for ESF? No, ESF is not Zone of the Enders obviously, my point is that if it can work in a game, period, then it is possible to apply it to another game. It would also be more sensible instead of just flying everywhere. By sensible I mean something that would be seen more likely in the show.

I'm optimistic about the situation and I think when 1.3 is out, the community will mold it to its liking, for the most part.

 

[DragonDude]

But alas, my opinion doesn't matter to you, does it? After all, you owe the people that play your game and keep it alive nothing, it would be foolish to throw your fans a bone and allow them to help make 1.3 better.

Yeah... we're such cruel dictators. Devoting our time to a game we release free on the Internet for someone as ungrateful and sharp-tongued as you to download.

Perhaps we should create some area on the forums where users can post suggestions... we could even put it on the main forum index! What a great idea!

 

[Rayne]

Dashing seems like a good ide to me. It worked for Zone of the Enders, why not for ESF? No, ESF is not Zone of the Enders obviously, my point is that if it can work in a game, period, then it is possible to apply it to another game. It would also be more sensible instead of just flying everywhere. By sensible I mean something that would be seen more likely in the show.

Lol, Zone of the Enders... you know how long I stayed interested in that game? about three weekends at my friends house, then I tried to sell it off. I would like Esf 1.3 to live for more than three weekends, once its released. This is exactly the kind of dashing that I was talking about.

Yeah... we're such cruel dictators. Devoting our time to a game we release free on the Internet for someone as ungrateful and sharp-tongued as you to download.

How would you feel if 1.3 died a month after it was realeased. This, of course, is an exaggeration, but as it is now, Esf is kept alive by people like me and Sub, people who play everyday and buy servers for other people to play in, and the fact that you guys are dragging the developement of 1.3 out for years now. Try to understand that we only have the best interest of the game in mind, and after the final release, it will be people like us that keep the game alive for as long as it can live.

 

[MC]

Nice. That PL thing is wild.
But for some reason mines in about 50% quality. Or it looks like it is.http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledwy5.png

You can't take screenshots of any kind of video if you have hardware acceleration cranked all the way up. You need to use something like Fraps if you want to take screenshots without changing your hardware acceleration.

More on-topic:

Regardless of what you saw in the video and how bad you think the feature will make ESF has no revelance to whether it will work or not. Making assumptions by just basing all of your reasoning upon a work-in-progress video and a few sentences isn't enough to go by. It's alright to speculate and question, but to go and say that the new feature is down-right pointless is going too far.

Everyone wants ESF to improve and become better, but it's the team that's making this modification, not the community. The only thing we can do as the community is make suggestions, ask questions, and trust the team.

 

[sub]

@Pain: How is this not productive? This is one of the first times we're actually talking about the direction the game is headed on the forums. Hell, we haven't done this since 1.2 was in production man.

If you actually released some info, maybe I wouldn't have to make some assumptions? Who cares if it's not complete, it's better then finishing it, implementing it ingame, then showing it to everyone and having them hate it (ala 1.2).

For the record, I'm atleast partially right in my assumptions. David, one of your beta testers who has played the game is worried about the direction the game is headed. Smith also posted on the ZR forums some concern the game is headed in

The team is making esf for the people who play twice and quit. They're not making it for us or people who play on a regular basis (online, not lan with bots).

Just a quick browse on this forum, but I have to say I agree. That's all.

http://z11.invisionfree.com/ZR_Clan/index.php?showtopic=238&st=0&#last

I'm not just making this stuff up, Pain. I base my opinion on what I see and what I hear people talk about. But you're probably correct, I can't possibly be right, I'm just a crybaby that twists your words around [If you could cite me an example of myself twisting your words around, that would be great. Thanks man].


@Dragondood: I called it, I knew it was coming. I've already prepared a response in advanced [I'm that good man]

Just because the game is free doesn't mean it has to suck. Other mods keep their players in mind when developing and they too are developing it for free.

 

[Rayne]

Regardless of what you saw in the video and how bad you think the feature will make ESF has no revelance to whether it will work or not. Making assumptions by just basing all of your reasoning upon a work-in-progress video and a few sentences isn't enough to go by. It's alright to speculate and question, but to go and say that the new feature is down-right pointless is going too far.

Again, this is not an added feature, it is a replacement. Its simple enough to gather that much from what has been said, but whats being replaced? The gameplay in its entirety. I dont believe that you play Esf enough to know this.

 

[MC]

Again, this is not an added feature, it is a replacement. Its simple enough to gather that much from what has been said, but whats being replaced? The gameplay in its entirety. I dont believe that you play Esf enough to know this.

A feature can also mean something that is replaced. I guess I have no place in this fruitless argument since I don't have any problems with ESF at all, or what the team decides.

Let me make you into a believer, I've played ESF since 1.0, so yes, I know what I'm talking about.

The bottom line is if you don't like where this modification is going, then find another modification to play. It's that simple and a lot less frustrating then trying to prove a point which so far has failed to be proved yet.

Let me ask, even though it's was stated. What exactly is wrong with this new method of swooping?

 

[Pain]

@Pain: How is this not productive? This is one of the first times we're actually talking about the direction the game is headed on the forums. Hell, we haven't done this since 1.2 was in production man.

If you actually released some info, maybe I wouldn't have to make some assumptions? Who cares if it's not complete, it's better then finishing it, implementing it ingame, then showing it to everyone and having them hate it (ala 1.2).

I've already made several points of why it's not productive. If you insist on having me repeat myself so be it. Talk on a leaked piece of information that's not nearly refined enough, and 99.9% likely to change, is pointless. As I said, we test the features to make sure they fit well into the game. And as you yourself have said, we do have several good players on the testing staff to make sure of this.

For the record, I'm atleast partially right in my assumptions. David, one of your beta testers who has played the game is worried about the direction the game is headed. Smith also posted on the ZR forums some concern the game is headed in.

For the record, yes you are partially right. With the information Dave gave you, and the state of that feature as it stands right now, it would be a horrible final product. This is why we test things and improve them, and then we show the features the way they should be. This is also why, as stated above, this conversation really is not productive.

I'm not just making this stuff up, Pain. I base my opinion on what I see and what I hear people talk about. But you're probably correct, I can't possibly be right, I'm just a crybaby that twists your words around.

I didn't claim you do. However what you've heard and seen have only been half-truths. I wouldn't put much faith in anything Smith says either. He hates the community so he just up and quit, it's not hard to believe he would bad-mouth us.

[If you could cite me an example of myself twisting your words around, that would be great. Thanks man]

Certainly.

we don't have to jump at your whim and begin explaining everything about the feature you're complaining about.

But alas, my opinion doesn't matter to you, does it? After all, you owe the people that play your game and keep it alive nothing

Just because the game is free doesn't mean it has to suck. Other mods keep their players in mind when developing and they too are developing it for free.

Who said we don't keep our players in mind? I could have sworn I said exactly that not but a few posts up. DragonDude is right though, you keep claiming we don't give a crap about the opinion of our fans, why would we have a suggestions forum?

 

[Rayne]

A feature can also mean something that is replaced. I guess I have no place in this fruitless argument since I don't have any problems with ESF at all, or what the team decides.

Let me make you into a believer, I've played ESF since 1.0, so yes, I know what I'm talking about.

The bottom line is if you don't like where this modification is going, then find another modification to play. It's that simple and a lot less frustrating then trying to prove a point which so far has failed to be proved yet.

Try reading the thread over again, ill repeat myself this one time, esf is my favorite game currently. Its frustrating to do this yes, but that still doesnt change the fact that im trying to help the team out. Oh and there's a difference between adding a feature and replacing a feature, even if its with another feature.

Let me ask, even though it's was stated. What exactly is wrong with this new method of swooping?

I tried to explain it as clearly as possible in my first post. Read it again if you didnt understand.

 

[MC]

Try reading the thread over again, ill repeat myself this one time, esf is my favorite game currently. Oh and there's a difference between adding a feature and replacing a feature, even if its with another feature.

I tried to explain it as clearly as possible in my first post. Read it again if you didnt understand.

Will do.

A dash? Im agreeing with Sub here, things dont sound like theyre heading in the right direction. Dashes in video games are usually the same, a short, straight burst in one directon. I hope you guys arnt trying to implement this kind of ****, hell, i might as well quit esf and go buy Budokai Tenkaichi if thats what the melee is going to be like. Yea, that stuff is really flashy and cool. Thats what people see at first, but it gets repetitive, then just boring. As it is now, Esf has tons of gameplay that actually requires precision and can remain fun after a year of playing nearly every day, even more for some who have been playing years.

Fast paced freedom and expandability like you said, David, is exactly what makes Esf great. Just moving forward, using your mouse to maneuver contains at least 90% of the gameplay that Esf defines, even though it sounds simple, it couldnt be anymore free or dynamic. Dont try to complicate it, all thats gonna do is restrict gameplay, even though some of it may look kind of cool.

This kind of thing is the reason why I would like to see at least one pro that plays esf every day as a beta tester, someone that knows what the games about to say "Esf is going good." or "Esf is ruined."

I still don't get what the problem is after reading through that again. No point was made.

 

[DragonDude]

This may come as a surprise to some of you, but guess what? Gameplay will be changing in 1.3.

Sorry to those of you that want the same thing repackaged again and again, but you're not going to be able to use your same stale techniques and maneuvers (which many will go so far as to call exploits).

To those who expect new things in a new version, you're one step ahead of the game.

 

[sub]

I've already made several points of why it's not productive. If you insist on having me repeat myself so be it. Talk on a leaked piece of information that's not nearly refined enough, and 99.9% likely to change, is pointless. As I said, we test the features to make sure they fit well into the game. And as you yourself have said, we do have several good players on the testing staff to make sure of this.

I've already made several counter-points to your argument, but I'll do it again if you insist on having me repeat myself.

It isn't productive because you havn't allowed the players, the people who actually play the game, the target audience, to participate in these discussions. There are more of us than there are of testing staff, so you'd get a lot more feedback and better ideas. If not better, at least more refined.

For the record, yes you are partially right. With the information Dave gave you, and the state of that feature as it stands right now, it would be a horrible final product. This is why we test things and improve them, and then we show the features the way they should be. This is also why, as stated above, this conversation really is not productive.

Now, this is on the record Pain. I'm partially right. 1/2 a point goes to Sub, who is now in the lead of this argument with a commanding half a point to zero.

Just to make sure I understand your point for this one, do you mean like the way the team tested and improved advanced melee in 1.2 when everyone said there was no point in having it, and would in fact be horrible?

I didn't claim you do.

Really?

You may twist my words as much as you like, fact is, just because you start crying doesn't mean we should tell you everything we have planned.

Honestly Pain, the way you called me a crybaby and told me I'm twisting your words [When I infact wasn't] really hurt my feelings. Then you turn around and forget it happened? That just hurts more man.

However what you've heard and seen have only been half-truths. I wouldn't put much faith in anything Smith says either. He hates the community so he just up and quit, it's not hard to believe he would bad-mouth us.

Hating the forum community isn't the same as hating the gaming community nor is it the same as hating the dev team. Why would he just spout lies? He isnt part of the dev team, so there's no reason for it is there? Makes you wonder why he left the team, actually.

Who said we don't keep our players in mind? I could have sworn I said exactly that not but a few posts up. DragonDude is right though, you keep claiming we don't give a crap about the opinion of our fans, why would we have a suggestions forum?

Your actions have said you don't keep your players in mind. The fact that we're not allowed to know anything shows that we don't matter in the decision process. The suggestions forum is there in order to keep people from posting them everywhere else.

What does my opinion have to do with releasing information? It's a separate thought


@Dragondood:Gameplay changed from 1.1 to 1.2, as well. There's nothing wrong with changing the gameplay as long as it is better, not worse. What I'm trying to do is make sure gameplay will be changed for the better, and you're hating on me for it.

 

[Rayne]

I still don't get what the problem is after reading through that again. No point was made.

The current swoop being replaced by a dash, from what I am given, is not an improvement. The only swoop being a charged one and possibly even for travel only should be clear enough. This was mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[imported_Greg2k5]

wow, that escalated pretty quickly.

That really got out of hand.