People's new tactic.

[KilledWithStyle]

If you would read PCJoe's journal, you would notice that he reduced the ki-ball damage anyways. Just don't worry about it.

 

[Neznanec]

Well I actualy think that ki-bals should stay as they are, if the power will be reduced they wont be good even for killing the ppl who idle :]

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

ok saiyan pride I will reinstall 1.2, and lets have a match so I can shut you up ok? BTW lets point out exactly what i never whined about.

My only point is, I'm not even that good at the game, but I have none of the following problems:

1.) Oh no! I'm out of energy!!!
2.) WTF, I swooped into him and nothing happened!!
3.) WTF, people kill me when I transform!!
4.) WTF, My graphics look bad!!
5.) WTF, the game is so laggy and crappy!
6.) Oh no!! I lost track of the enemy I was fighting!!
7.) Oh no!! Advanced melee doesn't do enough damage for it to be useful!!
8.) WTF, I blocked that guy but he still hit me!
9.) WTF, I can't do anything about being thrown, I just have to helplessly smack into a wall and wait for ki blobs to kill me!!

So I don't really see how you'd be able to beat me if your claims are all true. You basically said, You can't hit your enemies, can't seem to use advanced melee effectively enough to do any worthwhile damage, .

There's the one obvious answer--exploits. You'll hit me three or four times with teleports and swoops on simple melee before I can get to react. Well, of course your going to do more damage that way than advanced melee...advanced melee requires thought, you have to trick your opponent, etc. The ability to hit me five to ten million times while swooping with simple melee is a cowardly tactic, and if I had to pick one thing that I hate about the game, I'd pick that--because technologically speaking there is LITERALLY nothing you can do about it. And that makes it a might cowardly--I can do all this to the other guy without having to worry about what he might do to get away from it and mount an offense.

I mean hell. Let's address the actual points I made, shall we?

1.) Oh no! I'm out of energy!!!
Probably because you did nothing but whore on swoops and teleports since you say you don't use Advanced Melee.
2.) WTF, I swooped into him and nothing happened!!
If you swoop into an enemy with a beam or other attack selected, when you hit them it appears to be "buggy hit detection." It's entirely user error. Sorry Carl--get your mouse fixed. Some mice get worn out and get glitchy like mine is--sometimes it will select senzu beans while I'm in a swoop, and I'll think the game's broke, but it isn't. Pay careful attention.
3.) WTF, people kill me when I transform!!
Hide or wait till it's shorter. Idiot.
4.) WTF, My graphics look bad!!
THis is because people are tools and don't take care of/know anything about their computers. So Carl, you run it in opengl, good for you. Do you know about the config file problems? Did you edit the ati-specific half-life commands in ESF? There are any number of reasons why things like this happen. None of them are the ESF team's fault, suffice to say. Here's the deal, man: If the game works beautifully on even one machine, than it can't be a badly designed piece of software, because a badly designed piece of software would work like **** EVERYWHERE.
5.) WTF, the game is so laggy and crappy!
Learn how to use a ****ing computer. Go over to the "show your desktop" threads...every one of these kids has Bearshare or My Shared Folder or some such mother****ing crap on there. Those programs are dishonest, and are designed by selfish and dishonest ass-raping ****ers of mothers. You think they are legitimate? You think that the balance of things says there's no penalty for ripping off free media through the internet? Well, that's the price you pay. There are a number of options that you can exercise to improve the performance of the game...so like I said at the beginning...people need to learn how to use a ****ing computer.
6.) Oh no!! I lost track of the enemy I was fighting!!
Pay attention, Special Ed. The very fact that you lose track of the opponent your hitting says two things--"I whore leet exploits like triple tele simple hit and don't have time to pay attention" or "I just downloaded this game." And if someone interrupts YOUR fight...two for one sale the bastard.
7.) Oh no!! Advanced melee doesn't do enough damage for it to be useful!!
Learn how to use it. You can't just dive in and do three reps of the combos and expect it to hit. Blending in a couple of medium hits in the middle of an otherwise random combo is a great way to land heavy damage blows. And worse comes to worst, you can do all of a combo but change up the last arrow to be a heavy hit so they block wrong.
8.) WTF, I blocked that guy but he still hit me!
Learn to aim, and learn that blocking pre-punches helps stop throws completely as well as save you an assload of damage and time.
9.) WTF, I can't do anything about being thrown, I just have to helplessly smack into a wall and wait for ki blobs to kill me!!
Hold down jump when you get thrown, short bus kids. Hold down jump.

There. Every issue addressed.

I never whined saying i was OUT of energy i've said the ki drain is pointless though.

If i swoop into anyone they get hit I have never said nothing has happened. I say if someone swoops into me while im blocking there hit goes through it happens sometimes not all the time.

Um i have never complained about trans killing because im always the one doing it idiot.

Lol you come up with the silliest things. I have never complained about my computers settings.

Omg who even throws its so damn ineffective I never use the crap.
Adv melee everyone can see your arrows **** only goes through if its a Random arrow. Simple melee is the most effective and I always get hits in with that so i don't know wth you are talking about in trying to make up false accusations to prove an irrelevant point. This can all be settled with a fight. first to 10.

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

It's not like I was aiming that at you directly. The only part that was, is this:

You basically said, You can't hit your enemies, can't seem to use advanced melee effectively enough to do any worthwhile damage

Can't hit people is what I equated your hit detection complaints to. You said yourself that advanced melee is useless to you. That's about it. The rest of it was more aimed at the general existential complaining going on about all these things "wrong" with the game.

If you really want to fight, I'd have to brush up. I bought UT a couple of weeks ago and haven't been playing ESF. For good reason, too--I'm tired of people acting like *******s in every server. Almost the entire community of kids who play ESF are a bunch of pussies, with minimal exception. Complete lack of sportsmanship and enjoyment--not cause of the GAME being bad, but the PLAYERS abusing its quirks. And yeah, even those people who think, "he's not talking about me, I win all the time!" are wimps. With the exception of most of the big names in the community, everyone I play in this is. People sit around and fiddle with the game to try and find the best ways to kill lots of people easily with the least chance of dying themselves. Strategy? Maybe. I call it lame, personally.

That's the one thing ALL of the exploits have in common--more death to enemies and less to the exploiter. So I consider them all byproducts of a general fear of competitive play. Nobody plays ESF to have fun--just to win. That doesn't make a good game at all.

In fact, I haven't really seen a "gg" or "good game" at the end of an ESF match in over a year. I miss that sporting good-natured competitive atmosphere. But it's OUR fault as a community I do not see that--not anyone else's. That's why I went back to the UT guys after so long.

If you really want to fight, like I said, I'll be glad to, but it's not going to be for settling anything. I'll never kill you ten times; I barely get ten kills a session before the map changes. If you can do any of those exploit "tactics", of course you'll destroy me. Because I play games to have fun, not be the best. Being the best isn't fun. I think of people like Optional and Halorin...it must suck to be so good at the game that you destroy everyone put in front of you. I used to be like that in the old UT. It was only fun when I fought people of equal ability--it's the same with ALL games.

I'm not gonna say no to you. But I'm not going to say I'm better than anyone, either. At the game or in general. But lastly, I'm also not going to give you a game of 10-2 so that you can bring it to the forum and flame up the boards with it like it means something. Nah. When you see me ingame, you won't know its me. I think that way it'll be more entertaining. In fact I'm going to go play when I get home in a couple of hours and see just how much rust I've collected.

 

[MysticUub]

I barely get ten kills a session before the map changes.

because u use adv melee....u just made my point

like pain said theres nothing wrong with the chain hits...the only difference is its easier to do...in 1.1 i used to pull off 3,4, even 5 hit combos with no problem and id never hear anyone complain about it...and just like now back then they couldnt do anything about it...ud think that them reducing the max hit number to 2 would please u ppl that get ass raped all the time...but i guess not...now its a "cheap exploit" just because it beats u easier than adv melee....what about the ppl that fly around and do nothing but prepunch...and those that fly around and do nothing but prepunch and throw?...once i get hit by the first hit theres nothin i can do about it...but u dont hear me *****in about it or callin them "exploiters"...i think that they balanced it when they changed it...they made it easier to do chain hits...but limited it to two hits....what more do u want?...them to take it totally out of the game so that maybe ppl like u will have a better chance of beating ppl?...that was the whole point of 1.2...to give ppl like u that couldnt grasp how to use the 1.0/1.1 system effectively (without howing) a chance to maybe land a hit instead of just being owned 24/7...but because the system that they gave u doesnt help any u call our tactics exploits....i guess thats just like the pull throw thing in Jedi Academy...OMGZOR HE DID THAT FROM ACROSS THE MAP STUPID EXPLOITER!!1eleven...give me a break :S

 

[Skiwan]

It's not like I was aiming that at you directly. The only part that was, is this:


Can't hit people is what I equated your hit detection complaints to. You said yourself that advanced melee is useless to you. That's about it. The rest of it was more aimed at the general existential complaining going on about all these things "wrong" with the game.

If you really want to fight, I'd have to brush up. I bought UT a couple of weeks ago and haven't been playing ESF. For good reason, too--I'm tired of people acting like *******s in every server. Almost the entire community of kids who play ESF are a bunch of pussies, with minimal exception. Complete lack of sportsmanship and enjoyment--not cause of the GAME being bad, but the PLAYERS abusing its quirks. And yeah, even those people who think, "he's not talking about me, I win all the time!" are wimps. With the exception of most of the big names in the community, everyone I play in this is. People sit around and fiddle with the game to try and find the best ways to kill lots of people easily with the least chance of dying themselves. Strategy? Maybe. I call it lame, personally.

That's the one thing ALL of the exploits have in common--more death to enemies and less to the exploiter. So I consider them all byproducts of a general fear of competitive play. Nobody plays ESF to have fun--just to win. That doesn't make a good game at all.

In fact, I haven't really seen a "gg" or "good game" at the end of an ESF match in over a year. I miss that sporting good-natured competitive atmosphere. But it's OUR fault as a community I do not see that--not anyone else's. That's why I went back to the UT guys after so long.

If you really want to fight, like I said, I'll be glad to, but it's not going to be for settling anything. I'll never kill you ten times; I barely get ten kills a session before the map changes. If you can do any of those exploit "tactics", of course you'll destroy me. Because I play games to have fun, not be the best. Being the best isn't fun. I think of people like Optional and Halorin...it must suck to be so good at the game that you destroy everyone put in front of you. I used to be like that in the old UT. It was only fun when I fought people of equal ability--it's the same with ALL games.

I'm not gonna say no to you. But I'm not going to say I'm better than anyone, either. At the game or in general. But lastly, I'm also not going to give you a game of 10-2 so that you can bring it to the forum and flame up the boards with it like it means something. Nah. When you see me ingame, you won't know its me. I think that way it'll be more entertaining. In fact I'm going to go play when I get home in a couple of hours and see just how much rust I've collected.

exactly, i agree 100%, the only reason i play esf is to have fun.

because u use adv melee....u just made my point

like pain said theres nothing wrong with the chain hits...the only difference is its easier to do...in 1.1 i used to pull off 3,4, even 5 hit combos with no problem and id never hear anyone complain about it...and just like now back then they couldnt do anything about it...ud think that them reducing the max hit number to 2 would please u ppl that get ass raped all the time...but i guess not...now its a "cheap exploit" just because it beats u easier than adv melee....what about the ppl that fly around and do nothing but prepunch...and those that fly around and do nothing but prepunch and throw?...once i get hit by the first hit theres nothin i can do about it...but u dont hear me *****in about it or callin them "exploiters"...i think that they balanced it when they changed it...they made it easier to do chain hits...but limited it to two hits....what more do u want?...them to take it totally out of the game so that maybe ppl like u will have a better chance of beating ppl?...that was the whole point of 1.2...to give ppl like u that couldnt grasp how to use the 1.0/1.1 system effectively (without howing) a chance to maybe land a hit instead of just being owned 24/7...but because the system that they gave u doesnt help any u call our tactics exploits....i guess thats just like the pull throw thing in Jedi Academy...OMGZOR HE DID THAT FROM ACROSS THE MAP STUPID EXPLOITER!!1eleven...give me a break

The thing is, i use advanced melee 80% of the time, i usually get within the top 3 or 5 players on most servers, and believe me, some people are great teleporting, and hitting u while u cant do crap, but they suck at being able to press arrows, i can lay a whole advanced melee bar (no combos) on some people that get 300 odd kills on a server, it isnt as easy as people say :S. Simple melee woops my ass, because i loose all my ki wen i fight players that, i dont know how but it happens, im cool with it, but imo, once sum1 has hit u once, they got a free hit, sumthin not hard to do but can in sum situations end the fight, and i dunno about u, but if i told u every time u cud shoot a ki blast at sum1, u cud have another one free, would u say that was fair on the opponent? look back at 1.1, if u knew how to do it, u cud get a 5 hit combo easy (on anyone providing u got the first hit right), and ur opponent cudnt ****, is that fair?

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

I don't necessarily think there's a problem in the fact that you can do chain hits. I just think it takes a lot of the intensity out of things. Since, if the first hit is lucky enough to connect, you are pretty much going to lose 30 hp. Not for nothing but don't unblocked prepunches do more damage than a simple hit? Same for an adv. melee run (if you connect enough of the hits, that is). Hell, an Advanced melee attack with a combo chain in it after say 8 prepunches does PLENTY more than a simple hit, I'd think. The combo alone probably does 10hp worth. Of course that's assuming you can hit the person with enough hits to matter.

I only kill 10 people a game because of things like opponents trying to escape, beam spam, etc. It isn't that I completely suck, or that any of the moves I use aren't powerful enough--it's just the principle of the game. With you triple/quad swoopers it's a different story. The guy is dead after you do that two to three times and he's pretty much unable to escape, fly across the map, etc. once the first hit is laid.

I always thought multiple hits (and it's more than two...believe me) was a cheap exploit, personally. There's plenty of ways to smooth it out, of course. I rarely die from it--it's just so unenjoyable to deal with that I often don't bother to fight back. I just beam jump until the guy starts in on someone else.

The only reason why multiple hits wasn't an issue in 1.1 was because it was nearly impossible to do successfully and consistently--it devoured all of your ki and at best was a showmanship thing (you could really only do it if you hit the enemy straight upward, etc.) And often times it missed, too.

In 1.2, the multiple hit melee tactic is much harder to deal with because lots of people can do it first off. But more importantly, you fly backward from a hit slower than the actual swoop. A teleport or even another swoop can catch you up in time for a second hit--against which the opponent can do nothing other than hope he stops himself first.

I don't mind losing, I've said that a million times. Should they take it out? I never said that. But its certainly not a legitimate tactic. And even if it is, it's certainly not a courageous one.

 

[Pain]

fair? are you kidding me?

random arrows

nuff said

*edit*
in responce to davids post not you pride

 

[MysticUub]

yep...because honestly...if u arent aware enuff to get outta the way...then thats ur own fault...if u and i are fighting...and i can get u into a position where i can get the right angle hit so i can combo u to hell..y isnt that considered skill?...y is it automatically cheap..and an exploit when IM the one that got U to expose yourself so that its possible?....if u dont like being hit twice or 3 times or whatever...learn how to teleport away...if u run out of ki when u fight..charge it more...there's not much difference between the combos of simple melee now and the combos of melee in 1.1..and in 1.1 there wasnt any *****ing at all about it...the only thing thats changed is the fact that its easier to do...BUT..they have also limited the hits to only 2 instead of potentially unlimited like in 1.1...now..if u get hit in the back..no thats not exactly fair..but i mean no matter what u do to try to eliminate it...ppl are always gonna do that...its just somethin u have to live with

 

[Pain]

i think it is safe to say that it would make everyone happy if:
knockback speed and distance were increased slightly
chain hits were uncapped

therefore making successfull chain hits less cheap, but more skillfull.

and with the reduced swoop speeds and teleport delays, it will take some real skill to do it.

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

I agree Pain. As always, the man has a point.

In response to Uub: So I either have to never ever get hit...or get hit three or four times every time?

 

[MysticUub]

no..not at all...because not everyone can do it...or knows how anyway...very rarely do i go into a server and find someone that knows how to do it apart from the ppl that i know..(hal opty apes etc)..and honestly i know they own me anyway so its not that big a deal....and i mean its not like it kills u the first time someone does it...unless they catch u after a fight in the back...which is just somethin that cant be dealt with...so its not like u cant fight back at all...and if u are fightin someone that u konw can do that...y stop fighting?...y not try to get around them and use adv melee..cause like david said...a lotta ppl that know how to do this dont use adv melee because they cant...they suck at pressing arrows...so y not adv melee them to death if its so effective for u....my point is..its not like u have no control over it...tru u have less than u do with an adv melee combo string...but u can always teleport away..or block..or swoop back for a head on..theres many things u can do....what about the ppl that do nothing but prepunch u then beam jump away to the other side of the map...its basically the same principle...the only difference is that they run after they do it instead of staying in the fray...that to me is cowardly

 

[Skiwan]

fair? are you kidding me?

random arrows

nuff said

*edit*
in responce to davids post not you pride

random arrows arent unfair, u can get them wrong....... or..... u can get them right, its not quite the same as having to take the flak cuz u cant do nothing. u actually, have a chance, u can actually do something about whats happening...

random arrows are only "unfair" during head ons, cuz u can usually guess the randoms in advanced melee, i can anyways, u just gotta work out what they're most likely to do. I dont know about u, but random arrows dont bother me, and i did say, i didnt care about the simple hit combo's ( i can do em too, just i dislike the the way u can beat sum1 without letting them fight back) and i can charge up (i charge up everytime i do anything), its just it all disapears when i fight sum1 like that, i teleport a lot, i swoop alot.... , i think ive worked out why it goes now, cuz im constantly trying to self right, which takes up ki too. oh well, i'll just have to experiment.

i agree with this though:

knockback speed and distance were increased slightly
chain hits were uncapped

therefore making successfull chain hits less cheap, but more skillfull.

and with the reduced swoop speeds and teleport delays, it will take some real skill to do it.

I wouldnt mind it being like that.

 

[Pain]

yes you can get random arrows right or wrong

but wouldnt you also agree that a person can hit or miss the chain hit?

its practically the same thing... except random arrows are not done purposfully, there is no skill in it... its a guessing game...

i would rather a person kick my ass with chain hits, knowing he is skilfull enough to pull it off, than someone pummel my ass with random arrows.

and yes i can usualy guess them... but there are times when it just gets stupid, as you said during a head on, or when the other person has a few billion more pl then you do.... it is by no means fair that they can press a button and mess you up.

and just for the record, there have been a few people ive run into lately that seem to recover at a far greater speed then the average player. it is very very hard to chain combo these people... so there is a way to avoid it... i just dont know what it is O_O

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

I think your idea would be best, Pain. The fact that the knockback speed is so much slower than the swoop makes it too easy. I bet even having never done it in any version I could go into a game and pull it off a couple of times if I set my mind to it.

I see your points about the random arrows, but at the same time, if I get hit it should be MY skill that determines if I can escape a second hit. Not whether or not the other guy screws up. I mean, by that logic, beaming me in the back while I'm typing or AFK would be okay, because there is a slim chance the guy could miss.

 

[Skiwan]

yeah, i do agree about hiting and missing with chain hits its just the player being hit has little/no control over it, where as, with random arrows the have sum sorta input into whats happening. I have a suggestion for it which i think is much more fitting, and much more like dbz about chain swooping, free amount of chain hits is aloud, but after being hit by a simple melee attack (even during the combo) the knockback length is powerlevel dependant, if they have enough ki (because blocking during knockback would take a lot of ki), they can hold block any time during the knockback (this disables resistance against the knockback so u go further but u are blocking), if they are able to aim their block correctly on the attacker, it will stop the combo, and things return to normal. Imo i think that'd make things much more balanced, and much more like in dbz

 

[Chang Wufei]

to me...i personally do have probs with the slownes of the swooping away or teleporting even..for some reason i seem to get this glitch ALL the time..and it know its not me becuase ive seen it happen to other people..i will be there and someone will swoop at me..i try to teleport out of the way..but for some reason the teleport lags and although i do teleport...i get hit aswell...so i end up where i would have if i teleported but im flying back as if i haq gotten hit..and i take the damage...this also happens with swoops...now i can understand swoops cuz thats my fault..but teleports?...cmon..although i admit it happend in 1.1...it never happend as often...and also my teleports dont respond as well as they used to..i have multiple times when u swoop,end my swoop and hold jump then press teleport to tele up...but for some reason it teleports me forward ( or the direction i was last going) even though i had been holding jump to teleport up...it happens with all sorts of diff directions..and i know in 1.1. it never did that...so 1.2 is alot less responsive..in many different aspects..and its not lag..because i only play in servers where i ping 57....i know its not my fps...because i get a good 60 fps....so my assumption is that it is the game itself..although i do like some aspects of the new 1.2 mod...the aspects that anger me outweight the aspects that i find entertaining..i remember playing ESF for 4 hours straight and not getting a bit tired of it..now im glad if i can go 1 hour without turining to CS..the mod was great..and i loved it..but now...its too boring...theres too many peopl;e who have turned to beam spamming because mellee just doesnt do the trick anymore..and although there are people who have suceeded in aquiring "skill" in this new version...its not even worth practicing for anymore...before in 1.1..i would practice for hours to get down combos and work on my reactions and learn all sorts of counters because i knew it would be fuin to do and useful...but now its not nearly as fun...nor useful...we are soo limited now..unlike before..to be honest..i would love to have 1.1...and if i could..id go play it right now..but theres no servers up and noone plays it anymore..so theres no point...i remember before..i was soo close to getting down the move that is the most common now in 1.2...im sure u all know it...the swoop hit tele hit....where u swoop at your opponent and then hit them..after the hit..ut eleport up to them and hit them again..it was possible in 1.1...but noone did it because it was soo hard..and took soo much skill...although a few people did do it...and could....once u saw someone use it in the feild..u knew they had a great amount of skill in the game..and i was so close to getting it down...and then the 3rd day of playing 1.2...my friend goes.."hey watch this" and does it with ease..it was truly a letdown for the mod...and although it may seem that im just complaining of the "good ole days of 1.1" im not...im trying to prove that this "new" mod isnt nearly as great as it used to be...and when i read SSJ shin carl's post..i whole heartedly agreed

 

[Pain]

i think it is safe to say that it would make everyone happy if:
knockback speed and distance were increased slightly
chain hits were uncapped

therefore making successfull chain hits less cheap, but more skillfull.

and with the reduced swoop speeds and teleport delays, it will take some real skill to do it.

actually i think this is already in the patch (i hope)
so this whole thing wont be a problem for much longer.


ok so about those random arrows.... right now how it works is, theres always a certain chance you will get a random arrow. but without these randoms everything is too easy to block right? ive been trying to think of a solution to random arrow thing... and an idea ive been toying around with is this:
every arrow is the random arrow shape. however, depending on the strength of the attack and etc, the shade of the correct direction will show up more. so for instance, if you do a light hit downward - your opponent will see a multidirectional arrow but with a bright higlight on the downward spike. the longer it stays on the screen, the less it shines (like now, if it stays for too long it fades to a random)

so what about the strong hits that you dont want your opponent to see?
well EVERY hit is going to be random, the only differance is going to be the length and brightness of the correct direction.

therefore, if you make a strong hit downwards, your opponent will see a multidirectional arrow, with a slight hightlight downward. it will fade away quickly and will be hard to see, but it is there.

this idea could use a lot of tweaking, and as i said its just something ive been toying around with. but basically as i said, depending on the strength of the attack you will have different highlights and highlight length.

as for diagonals, on the random arrow there are no diagonal sides, so the hightlight would appear on both of the directions of the random (IE: left and up)

if this is tweaked i believe it would require people to actualy pay attention and react quickly instead of blocking everything put in front of them and guessing at randoms... because really... anyway you spin it.. it IS guessing...

*edit*
heh well i guess i should have posted this into the suggestion forums... but *shrug

 

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

Wow Pain. You could actually do that in a sprite pack right now...In fact I think I might give it a try.

Ha. Just finished. Works to a degree. Not like the system you suggested, Pain, but almost--no fading but the same idea. All arrows now have four directions with the corresponding ones being red. makes it a little more confusing. Also, to prevent combo prediction from being so easy, I made it so that when you hit the correct direction, the arrow then turns completely colored, meaning that for that split second you will not be able to see what the last button press was.

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

I think the adv melee hits would require more skill if the random arrows were takin off and that they changed it to where as, The stronger the arrow the faster it appears and disappears. If your pl is high enough it won't appear at all. (adding a dbz effect, and a more skillful feel to it.) Well Since it will be faster then your eye if you train your eye enough you could be quick at hitting the keys.

Like for pl it shouldn't show if your anywhere from 3m to 5m pl higher then someone.

If your like 3m to 5ml pl lower then someone all of your arrows should show.