New melee system

[Arachka]

Hmmmm , maybe u should do something simple , like having two buttons , a kick and a punch , and lets say your attacking the other guy , u have a bar on the bottom
that show's the maximum hits u did , like the more u hold the kick or punch button the stronger the attack is , you should have a maximum amount of hits like in the current system ,but the only way to block them is using the Q button ( block duh ) and the stronger the attack the higher chances that it will break your block , and there should be a way combining it in a swoop , like swooping with a punch that u held by using the punch button , so it will charge up a stronger hit , it shouldnt be like simple melee cuz u can charge it , but u can charge only one hit , kick or punch , strong or weak or medium , i didnt want to open a new thread so i just post it here , anyway it should be way more simple then the current system , tough i dont know what about dodging it , maybe a button or something ,
i dont know im maybe wrong but its just an idea , i think stuff can be added revampd anything , all i know is that the current system is extremely boring , and its really not noob friendly , oh , and its boring , im not saying i can do better and im not judging the team or something , i just think it should be something like i suggested :no: :yes:

 

[Pcjoe]

Hmmmm , maybe u should do something simple , like having two buttons , a kick and a punch , and lets say your attacking the other guy , u have a bar on the bottom
that show's the maximum hits u did , like the more u hold the kick or punch button the stronger the attack is , you should have a maximum amount of hits like in the current system ,but the only way to block them is using the Q button ( block duh ) and the stronger the attack the higher chances that it will break your block , and there should be a way combining it in a swoop , like swooping with a punch that u held by using the punch button , so it will charge up a stronger hit , it shouldnt be like simple melee cuz u can charge it , but u can charge only one hit , kick or punch , strong or weak or medium , i didnt want to open a new thread so i just post it here , anyway it should be way more simple then the current system , tough i dont know what about dodging it , maybe a button or something ,

Besides this idea being extremly unreadable, it's not even close to complete. Once you start to attack the enemy, what happens? Will they be stunned for a short period of time when they take the damage? What will stop people from smashing punch/kick and doing mindless damage to eachother? How will the punch/kicks be linked? Will they do a short 3 hit combo? What about throws? How will you actually stay in this meele combat? Try running around and hitting people with secondary fire melee (and that even has a huge range) without swooping, you'll find out it's next to impossible.

i dont know im maybe wrong but its just an idea , i think stuff can be added revampd anything , all i know is that the current system is extremely boring , and its really not noob friendly , oh , and its boring , im not saying i can do better and im not judging the team or something , i just think it should be something like i suggested :no: :yes:

Yes, the fact that the currently melee system is boring/doesnt work/is a failure/etc etc is well established, it's stated in this thread 2-3 times alone.

 

[Arachka]

Yeah i guess i was kinda unclear sorry bout that , anyway , i hope u come up with something that will be better then the queque/hit/press direction arrow , anything is better , sorry about the unreadable idea but i hope u understood the basics of it

 

[Carnage the 1]

NOTE: This system is extremely lag unfriendly but it's a system non the less, if you can think of a way to make it better for laggers, I'd like to know how.

simple melee
This is either if you stand still or are swooping/flying forwards. You can do these moves without getting close to anyone so you'd have to time when they hit the enemy. (kinda like a 2d fighting game)

full knockback distance:

<- + rmb = left punch

-> + rmb = right punch

\/ + rmb = single kick

/\+ rmb = single kick

RMB only = grab (kick/punch plus a grab animation)

Grab is explaind later

It is possible to add extra animations for when a player uses a single kick in the side of the enemy player, resulting him to be kicked in the stomach and therefor flying up (perhaps some blood sprites comming from his mouth?) causing extra damage. It is however important that different angles result in different animations (like in 1.1) though the effect will remain the same.

When swooping/flying backwards, it's a little different

<- + rmb = left elbow in the face (50% knockback distance)

-> + rmb = spinning elbow (player also turns 180 degrees) (full knocback distance)

\/ + rmb = backkick (50% knockback distance)

/\ + rmb = spinning backkick (player also turns 180 degrees) (full knockback distance)

When a spinning attack is performed, the player will turn a total of 540 degrees, he can hit any opponent within his range regardless of the position.

rmb only = 180 degrees punch that will spin the enemy player around for 1 second rendering him vulnerable. (25% knockback distance)

When a player is knocked back for any reason, instead of recovering he can perform one of the above moves if he wishes to (to prevent combos or something).


During Grab

<- + rmb = weak punch + 1 sec stun time

-> + rmb = knee to stomach + 1 sec stun time

\/ + rmb = strong punch (100% knockback distance)

/\ + rmb = strong kick (100% knockback distance)

During the grab, a struggle will commence, draining ki from both fighters when clicking the left mouse button

If the enemy breaks lose from the grab, his opponent will be stunned for 1 second.

During the grab, you can use your mouse to aim. Aiming down will result in the opponent being thrusted down, aiming up means the player will be thrusted up and so on. Depending on what the team decides you can do this for 4 directions (left, right, down, up) or just up and down. (The Specialists uses a similar method)


Advanced melee

<- + lmb = elbow to stomach to grab2

-> + lmb = punch to stomach to grab2

\/ + lmb = kick to face to grab2

/\ + lmb = kick to stomach to grab2

lmb only = punch battle

Punch battles

When in a punch battle, the attacking player is given a specific amount of time in which he must make his moves. Punches are done by left clicking, kicks are done by right clicking. The attacking player can aim his attacks by aiming them with his crosshair on his opponents body (an option in the options menu allows the player to select his sensitivity while in the punch battle). A square (invisible?) will prevent the crosshair from going too far of the opponent.

If this is too hard for a 3rd person view, a scouter-like window could also popup, making it perhaps easier.

The attacking player can charge his attacks by holding the desired mouse button. The longer the charge, the longer it takes for it to reach the player.

The defensive player can try to block his enemy's moves by timing. Whenever he sees his enemie trying to punch him, he must press his block key. Whenever the player gets hit by one of those moves he will receive stun time. Weak hits cause little stun time, charged hits cause more. If an enemy has more powerlevel than his foe, he will cause more stuntime than usual. If the attacking player can cause enough stuntime, he may wish to fully charge a kick or hit so that his enemy will be knocked back. Here too, the mouse can be used to select that direction.

However, the defending player is not completely helpless for he too can fight back using the attacking system. It will no doubt occur that two players aim the same direction. If the charges are pretty equal, a small energy wave (the sprite in this case) will be created. If one hit is stronger than the other, it will be overruled.

When a player is charging a strong attack, his opponent can attack him in the mean time, two punches will cancel the charge regardless of their strength.

It is therefor not recommended to do strong attacks before enough stuntime is reached. Once you can have enough stun time, the other player is pretty much done for.

The stuntime is also determined by HP, if your HP is 10 you will more easily receive stuntime than when you have 50 or 100 HP, but it shouldn't be too much.

Location based damage would also be nice (head causes more stuntime than a leg or arm)

When the player has enough stuntime inflicted on his opponent he may also double tap to swoop. Swooping causes him to ram into his opponent and can swoop against a wall or building. His sensitivity will not change until he done swooping, the swooping will only be aborted when out of ki or when he reaches a wall, not like the way now. So no chainswooping is not required then. However the ki consume will be greater than a normal swoop.

When the time has expired and none have managed end the battle, the fight is done and both players will fly back (by themselves, not by a knockback) and are free to move again.



If a player reaches below 5 hp during such a punch battle, his opponent can do a finishing move on him (fatality-like moves, read my first post)



Headons

*dno yet*



During Grab2

RMB = throw

LMB + directoinal arrow = punch battle only now the player is given 2 seconds free before his foe can attack back, he can still block though.


Blocking

Instead of holding block, you must now time your block carefully (clientside if possible).

If you time any attack right, you will dodge it. Dodging will be nothing more than a short non turbo swoop. When you have dodged a move, you are free to go. If you decide to use simple melee on him too, he must also time his block, this could go on in a endless cycle untill one is hit or escapes.




If have a little video which covers all of these systems, I have yet to upload it, but once I've done it, I will post the link. ->
www.yoomie.net/zforces/Styx/CellvsGohan.zip

 

[Shogi]

Holy. Crap.

..
...
.....
...
must have divebomb!

 

[Carnage the 1]

Then think of a way to implent it ..

 

[Cold Steel]

You know, about the blocking "exploits". With a live melee system, like Pcjoe said, you should press your block button for each hit you take instead of holding it down all the time.

This does require something else though. If someone would just randomly press a melee button a 100 times a second, there's no way you can hold up against, with the blocking system i just suggested. I don't know if it would work, but there would have to be a small delay, between each melee attack. A delay that's short enough to keep the melee fast paced.

This way, people can no longer be block whores, since there block will be down after countering a melee attack. And you can't just tap the block key endlesly. You would to time it in order to prevent of getting hit

 

[Krazy-Killa]

That's the problem with incorperating "Live" melee systems. You have to take into consideration, lag, and lame scripters that like to script attacks and make it so you can't even dodge the attacks, because they come in so fast. I have an idea for a "live" system. It's cheasy but it might do the trick, and it'll require you to watch your opponent, and not arrows:

• Basic Fighting System
  • If two players, with melee selected, comes extremely close to each other, but not swooping, it'll automatically switch to a fighting mode.
  • This is timed, which means if the fight drags on without a vatality, it ends, and both players are blown apart.
  • The directional keys become like they do in like DoA3, or Tekken, and your view shifts to a 2-D perspective. Your punch, and kick keys are your Primary and Secondary buttons.
  • Players can move around like in a Fighting game, but if they go too far away from each other, the session ends prematurely.
  • A bar appears at the bottom of the screen displaying your history of moves you've done in that fighting session.
  • Combos can be done, for instance, you press Punch+Left,Punch+Right,Kick+Up. You'll do a Left, Right punch, and then a hard Upper Kick. Could be more complicated.
• Swooped Attacks (While your opponent is not swooping at you.)
  
  • Holding no button down while swoop would do a prepunch melee hit, like it is now, but no combo system.
  • If holding left mouse button, you do a hard punch
    • If holding another direction (Like left, or right), while holding your swoop direction, you do a different kind of punch (Forward + Left + Primary Attack = Hard Left Hook)
• Head-Ons (Two people swooping at each other)
  
  • A new type of struggle starts (Here's where the live system comes in) [This is timed, and will only last for a short time, like 30seconds to a minute. Can be a server-variable]
    • Both players start off in an immense fighting struggle (Punches, kicks, everywhere), once that ends, the fighting mode starts up.
  • Blocking
    
    • Blocking can be really simple. If both players do the same move. Let's say Punch+Left, they both hit each others fists, and a loud boom is made.
    • If you press your block key, and this has to be timed, right before your opponent's attack lands, you'll dodge it, or block it.
  • Grabs
    
    • Pressing both Punch + Kick at the same time, will preform a grab.
  • Teleporting
    
    • Teleporting will be limited to when an attack is about to land.
    • If you press teleport right before your opponent's attack lands, you'll teleport behind him, and try and grab him. He can resist, by pressing his grab combination. If it's successful, he'll resist, and the fighting will restart.

Can't think of anything else to add to it.

 

[Ultima2_freeze]

:| Doesn't that kinda put the scripting idea at the front of the problem again Krazy-Killa?

 

[Arachka]

Heh it would be cool making it like budokai , a 2d view :O , tough it would require more then two buttons of fighting , cuz doa sucked with all the grabs and blocks

 

[Carnage the 1]

I think I gave people the wrong idea, ESF is not supposed to be a 2d fighting game. Other than that I just coughed up whatever came into me, hoping to give someone some ideas.

 

[Krazy-Killa]

:| Doesn't that kinda put the scripting idea at the front of the problem again Krazy-Killa?

Well if someone uses a script, it'll still be the same as if they were actually inputing the commands, because the character would be doing the hits at the same speed. How fast you input the keys, does not mean the character will hit at the same speed.

 

[SSFT]

Going with carnages idea, head-ons could be kind of how they are now when simple and advanced meet, but different. They will both take damage, it will be automatic, and the person with the most power does more damage and knocks the other back, while not moving himself. Think of it like they head on, swap hits, and the stronger one does the final blow that does more damage and he doesn't get knocked back, but the other guy does get knocked back. Before the final blow (by the stronger guy) both players will take the same amount of damage.

It might seem a little unfair because of the stronger guy always winning the head-ons, so it could be like a power struggle, but then we run into the problem of taking too long, and non fluid gameplay.
If the power levels are the same (fat chance of that happening) no one gets the final blow, they just swap hits and then its time to do the other melee's carnage said above.

I like the idea of a battlesphere Joe mentioned. You would have real time melee mode, and regular movement flying beaming mode. So after the headon both would stop (getting rid of the final blow thing) and go into the battle-sphere melee mode

 

[Carnage the 1]

Powerlevels shouldn't be exactly the same, 500k pl difference won't matter, if greater than 500k, it should happen like SSFT stated above. Of course the difference will be different per transformation

normal : 500k

ssj : 1 mil

ssj2 : 1.5 mil

etc..

 

[Pcjoe]

*scratches head*
Carnage, how are you pressing these different directional buttons while you swoop? You need to hold onto forward while you swoop, so how would it be possible to perform a grab?
I read over all the new ideas. They're nice concepts, although a lot of these systems look like they're only playable with <20 ping. I'm willing to make the game a bit more geared to lpb's, as in <150 ping. Even if i had 0 ping, there's no way I could watch a player start a left punch and press a button in time to react, that's like less then 0.3 seconds. It would be a bit more managable if we had a cool slow down effect, but I'm not too sure how effective that blocking system will be... Might be a little odd for spectators to watch as well.
The blocking doesnt have to be so strait forward though. For one, we can have a SSBM (super smash brothers melee) type blocking bar. The more attacks you block, the more the blocking bar fills up. If the bar fills up the enemy will beable to break your guard and do extra damage. Another idea is to have a staggering type system. For example, lets say you're attacked by a double left kick. The first kick bends your characters torso to the right ( absorbing the damage ), the second hit might be a bit too much to absorb and knock down your character (with a cool sliding against the ground effect). This will all work in relation to the above block bar I just suggested, along with a slight hint of a PL ratio.
What about spamming these power hits, and possible methods to dodge?
Like most fighting games, if you perform a full combo on a blocking enemy, this usually leaves you vulnerable during the last hit. If the enemy tries to perform this two hit move and the blocking player isnt knocked down by it, he'll beable to retaliate. Perhaps have some 'slow down' moments so it's easier to block / retaliate, but meh... This is going to get pretty complex, expecially when you start throwing multiple players into the mix... And ontop of that it might not even work out too well in the end *sigh* O well -_- Next ^_^?

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

Shin Carl's Advanced Melee System

Simple Melee (can stay the same it is now. Its not broken, so it doesn't need fixin)

Adv Melee:

Ways of attacking in Advanced Melee



Punching
Kicking
Throwing *coming soon
Special Attack *coming soon*
Special Combo *coming soon*

Ways of defending in Advanced Melee



Grabbing
Blocking
Dodging
Countering

Attacking-


To use Punch you must hold the punch button.
To use Kick you must hold the kick button.
To use Grab you must hold both the punch, and kick button. (Can only be used in a Counter)

<, >, V, ^

These arrows represent the direction the attack goes. Each arrow indicates what kind of attack your are performing.
Read below to know what each arrow represents for the following attack methods.

Punching - Kicking -
< - Left Punch < - Left Kick
> - Right Punch > - Right Kick
v - Elbow v - Knee
^ - Uppercut ^ - Rising Kick

hint*** if attacks connect the defender will get stunned for a couple more hits letting you be able to create a self made combo.

Defending-

These arrows represent the direction the defense goes. Each arrow indicates what kind of defense your are performing.
Read below to know what each arrow represents for the following defend methods.

Blocking - Dodging -
< - Left block < - Left Dodge
> - Right Block > - Right Dodge
v - Low Block v - Backwards Lean/Dodge
^ - High Block ^ - Jump

hint*** if you block alot of attacks a specific block won't be as effective before, and you will begin absorbing more damage from the attacker.
hint*** if you dodge alot of attacks you begin to get tired (your ki will diminish faster). Dodging is more movemen of the body so it takes more ki.

Countering- works after you Dodge an attack. After a dodge you can follow the dodge up with a kick or punch of your own, or a grapple if you have enough ki to perform it.

Counter Attack - Counter Throw/Grab - *coming soon*
< - Left Counter Punch/Kick < -
> - Right Counter Punch/Kick > -
v - Jump Thrust Punch/Kick v -
^ - Backflip Kick ^ -

hint*** Counter grabbing costs more ki then anything else in advanced melee, and if you mess up the timing on the counter you will be left open for some attacks.

What Attacks that can only be blocked, or dodged with certain Block/Dodges.
These are the attacks that can be blocked, and dodged by these specific dodges/blocks.


Punching - Dodging - Blocking -
< - Left Punch < - Left Dodge, Backwards Lean/Dodge < - Right Block
> - Right Punch > - Right Dodge, Backwards Lean/Dodge > - Left Block
v - Elbow v - Jump v - Low block
^ - Uppercut ^ - Backwards Lean/Dodge ^ - High Block

Kicking - Dodging - Blocking -
< - Left Kick < - Left Dodge, Backwards Lean/Dodge < - Right Block
> - Right Kick > - Right Dodge, Backwards Lean/Dodge > - Left Block
v - Knee v - Jump v - Low Block
^ - Rising Kick ^ - Backwards Lean/Dodge ^ - High Block

hint*** The more you have to move the more ki it costs.


*sorry for sloppyness the post wouldn't come out right for some reason*

 

[ESFVoltage]

That sounds cool Shin Carl.

 

[DarktoothDKD]

An idea about blocking..
what if.. we showed every arrow.. no random arrows.. unless you want them. Heres the concept :

you have a blocking bar.. that looks similar to the attack charging bar..

heres how it works.. The defender will see every arrow that the attacker is doing.. but he doesnt know what strength it is. So the defender has to charge up his blocking enough for the attack which might hit him.

Lets say..

attacker does Up (weak) down (strong) left (medium)

defender has to guess how strong he wants his block to be.. if just press up (weak) down (weak) left (strong)

the defender will block the up (weak) get SMACKED with the down (strong) then dodge / counter the left medium since he blocked harder.

Even if you counter / block / dodge so many attacks in a row.. you still have a chance to retaliate like the current adv melee.


Blocking Pre-Punches
By Carnage

what happens when you block?

- nothing, you will receive little damage and will not do a dramatic counter attack
- struggle, nothing too special or destructive (unless a hidden combo is used)
- counter throw, but less ki needed

.. I was thinking.. why not if you block the prepunch.. you just punch the enemy away automatically? would be pretty cool.. like..

Hah! I block you.. then BLAM! I punch you away Would be rather helpful/cool. If your looking in a direction while your blocking.. you can hit him in that direction..
if your holding back, you can counter throw him or something, toss him behind you.. I dunno. Other than that, what ever direction you face, is the direction you knock the guy.

But if you block a knock back attack, nothing.. just like it is now. Maybe a push back would be nice


This part is about swoop directional hitting, with more control

By Krazykilla

Swooped Attacks (While your opponent is not swooping at you.)

Holding no button down while swoop would do a prepunch melee hit, like it is now, but no combo system.
If holding left mouse button, you do a hard punch
If holding another direction (Like left, or right), while holding your swoop direction, you do a different kind of punch (Forward + Left + Primary Attack = Hard Left Hook)

The part I found interesting was when you swoop.. and you hold a another direction.. you do a different attack. like you could be swooping forward.. but holding right and you could knock the guy.. right!

or swooping up and holding crouch.. you could hit the guy.. down

Get my point? Would be fun having more control over your attack directions


Lock - On for 1.0 - 1.1 lovers
Wy not just make a cvar for those who liked the lock-on. Im thinking that itll be used by noobs, probably have this cvar option in the advanced options or something, so you dont have to memorize it, anyway.
Itll be like before, itll help you keep track of the guy your attacking and not lose him so quickly like 1.2. But maybe, if you press left + right click at the sime time would de-lock, cause challenging multiple people while locked on to one guy in 1.0.. was irritating


Extra Attack Types
BTW, one last statement.. just so you guys know, you can do a lot with our current system, here are some ideas
( while swooping )
left click - 1st attack
right click - 2nd attack - Knock Back
both clicks - 3rd attack
none clicked - 4th attack - prepunch

you can also make them do different things at different moments like

you attack them from the front
you attack them from the back
for each of those different meetings, you can do a different attack. (Meant for prepunch) like prepunch then throw, or DIVE BOMB!.
throw if you attack from the front, dive bomb if you attack from the back.


I hope you guys get my points on this as well

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

Darktooth you just came up with the best system for adv melee. I bet that wouldn't even take long to code either..... AND u dont have to do any new animations ( i heard your redoing all of them though?).

That is the best system I have heard of lol, but How would we tell the strength of the attack. Wait lemme think in most fighting games you can't tell its a strong attack there about to do until you see the animation anyway. That is the best idea. I hope you guys change it to be like this I am all for this (im not trying to sound like a fanboy or anything, but that is great as hell).

*edit*

I would also like to add to that Darktooth.

Like when someone has a big powerlevel difference then you. Like if someone is higher then yours. Say if you do All Strong hits. Well the High powerlevel person only had to do a Medium Dodges to dodge the strong hits, and if his level is EXTREMELY higher then yours. then they do all Strong hits all you have to do are regular weak dodges to dodge him, but this would be like a 5 ml pl difference though, and if your attacking the alot stronger person.

If there people is just alot higher then yours you would have to do Medium dodges to block there regular weak hits, and strong dodges for all the rest of there hits medium and strong, and for the extremely high pl people you have to do all strong dodges just to block there attack (doesnt matter what it is since there pl is so high.)

My PL/Ki System would work well with this too. Here it is, so no one will be like "What system". Well a part of it anyway.

Domination PL:This determines how the power level effects these 4 categories in different and same situations.
=, -x1, -x2, -x3
=, +x1, +x2, +x3



Power Level - Power level is everything it determines your Strength, Speed, Defense, Strength and Size of your beam attacks.


I will use these 4 Powerlevel Range Multipliers. This means if your in this range of the power level you will feel the effect of the power level.

-0 = Means Equal
-1.5 = Means that your -1.5x lower than your opponents powerlevel.
-2x = Means that your -2x lower than your opponents powerlevel.
-3x = Means that your -3x lower than your opponents powerlevel.

+0 = Equal
+1.5 = Means that your 1.5x higher than your opponents powerlevel.
+2x = Means that your +2x higher than your opponents powerlevel.
+3x = Means that your +3x lower than your opponents powerlevel.



I think the esf code already has this in there though. It just works slightly different.

 

[Krazy-Killa]

DarktoothDKD's system seems balanced, and "lag" friendly (Not entirely, but it's about the same as the current system), and allows for more control over how you can block, dodge, counter, etc. Especially the swoop part, where you can knock someone in another direction by holding another direction key down while swooping in one direction (Created by me. ) I especially like the ability to throw someone after you block their prepunches, or block/dodge they're attack during a combo sequence. But the throw should be a very quick charge, like maybe two swings, and bye bye opponent. :laff: