Left 4 Dead 2

[Spunky]

I'm not the one who made a statement of fact. I speculated.

I was speculating as well. Sorry for the confusion.

There are giant stickied lists on the official forums, feel free to help yourself.

I don't care about problems that other people have had. Those bugs are so rarely seen, it's almost a joke to say they're "glaring." I have never experienced any of those bugs in the entire time I've been playing both games. Like I said, I get the very rare crash in L4D2. That's it.

In fact, I do. Not the least of which was related to the very mod forum you're posting on.

PR doesn't count as development. Have you actually developed anything for the mod? If you say you've skinned or modeled, I'm going to laugh, then slap you. In the face.

First of all, it's not a car engine, it's lines of code. Secondly, you have no idea how different the new feature is from the old feature, so I wouldn't just assume it's a complete rewrite.

I realize this. You'd be surprised at how good that comparison really is. When you're working with an object-oriented programming language like C++, it can be accurately compared to working on a car engine. You're creating so many different components that all rely on each other. Changing one value by the slightest amount in an obscure class could effectively break your application.

So yes, it's not as easy as just patching things like the new AI director in. It's much, much easier to just rewrite things like that from the ground up. You use your previous work as a reference when you need to of course, so in a tiny sense, you're not completely rewriting it.

Doom and Doom2 are both singleplayer games, and as such can get more leniency with regard to sequels. Not only that but these games were among the first of their kind so the territory had no precedence.

If you were saying that Doom2 couldn't have been built into Doom, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Doom2 added two more weapons, maybe a few more enemies, and a single player map set.

Take what I said and apply it to any game then. I was just throwing something out there because it doesn't really matter what the game is. It's always going to be easier to put out a sequel than to implement DLC.

I'm always realistic.

Could have fooled me.

What I've been saying is that the new existing content could have been patched into the original. What I won't do, is speculate on what non-existent content could have been put in.

I know what you're saying. What I'm saying is that yes, it could have been, but no, it wouldn't have been a good idea, or even an OK idea. It's a terrible idea, and more work than needs to be done. It's cheaper and easier to just release that content as a sequel.

Ok, so one campaign? That's pretty much what I said.

Hard Rain particularly trips me up with the weather, the changed pathways, the absence of ammo piles where I remember them being last time, etc. It means you have to constantly stay aware.

I really don't know why you would think only one campaign would enjoy the benefits of the new AI director. That doesn't make any sense.

Made me laugh, but that's still 1 out of 4 survivors.

I gave 2 examples. I'm not going to post every funny line of dialogue in the game to appease you. But that was 2 out of 4 survivors. The second line (the cousins only joke) was spoken by Nick. Everyone has good lines, not just those two.

 

[Pain]

I don't care about problems that other people have had.

Just because you don't care, or aren't observant enough to spot them, doesn't mean they aren't there.

PR doesn't count as development. Have you actually developed anything for the mod? If you say you've skinned or modeled, I'm going to laugh, then slap you. In the face.

You asked, I answered. Before I get into any more of my credentials why don't you list yours. And yes, I have skinned and modeled. I await your limp wristed response.

So yes, it's not as easy as just patching things like the new AI director in. It's much, much easier to just rewrite things like that from the ground up.

It's running on the same engine, doing the same things, with an additional few things added on. Writing it from the ground up would be a complete waste of time. Additionally, you haven't addressed how you know it's a complete re-write or not yet.

Take what I said and apply it to any game then. I was just throwing something out there because it doesn't really matter what the game is.

Except that it does matter what the game is. A single player game is going to have an easier time putting out a sequel than a mainly multiplayer one.

Could have fooled me.

Indeed, those with special needs may get that impression.

I really don't know why you would think only one campaign would enjoy the benefits of the new AI director. That doesn't make any sense.

It makes sense because you only listed one, which fits exactly with what I had said. You can easily take this point if you would show where it happens in other campaigns.

 

[Skiwan]

Meh, I always thought the whole game felt like a glorified mod anyway. To me, the first and second together aren't worth the price tag of a regular game, and that's why I'd never buy it. If they threw this in the orange box, and slapped an extra £5 on the price, it'd be worth it, but just feels like half life 2 with zombies, but then again I've never been a hardcore zombie fan, and never played more than a few games of it.

 

[Spunky]

Just because you don't care, or aren't observant enough to spot them, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Well, what bugs do YOU personally experience playing the game?

You asked, I answered. Before I get into any more of my credentials why don't you list yours. And yes, I have skinned and modeled. I await your limp wristed response.

I've taught myself C++, Pawn, HTML and PHP. I've used C++ to screw around with the HL and Source SDK (nothing major, just optimizing stuff and getting familiar with it). I've written small custom content for my own amusement. Sub can back this up, he was my beta tester for a while haha.

I've been using Pawn to script for AMXX and SourceMod for about 5 years now, give or take a little bit. This is where the vast majority of my programming experience stems from. I have plenty of experience developing custom content. I'm speaking entirely from personal experience in this thread.

It's running on the same engine, doing the same things, with an additional few things added on. Writing it from the ground up would be a complete waste of time. Additionally, you haven't addressed how you know it's a complete re-write or not yet.

It's not doing all of the same things though. To make those changes, they had to rewrite the director.

Then you’ve got to have all those together. Then the AI director has to know how to use those. Then also you’re saying that sometimes we want to have these kind of controls, so it becomes a whole rewriting of the director, a whole rewriting of the creature AI and how you add creatures. In Left 4 Dead 1, it would have been very difficult to add a new creature in a short period of time.

He goes on to say they've redesigned the entire thing to be modular, meaning easier to manage.

Source: http://www.afrogamer.com/?p=1702

Except that it does matter what the game is. A single player game is going to have an easier time putting out a sequel than a mainly multiplayer one.

How so?

It makes sense because you only listed one, which fits exactly with what I had said. You can easily take this point if you would show where it happens in other campaigns.

I couldn't find a video on YouTube showing this off, and I don't feel like making one myself. This is the best thing I could find:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T71rp_IBzOY[/ame]

Take it for what you will. IGN doesn't typically lie about a game's features when they've had the chance to personally play it.

 

[-Origin]

I wonder how long you two can keep this up.

 

[Pain]

I wonder how long you two can keep this up.

It probably won't be much longer. What will end up happening is that we will agree to disagree.

Well, what bugs do YOU personally experience playing the game?

From personal experience off the top of my head:

• Getting stuck on an object
• Survivor crouch/run glitch
• Getting stuck in the "hit by tank" animation until you die
• Catching a ledge after being punched by the tank
• Catching a ledge when the fall wouldn't have killed/damaged you
• Smoker "death pulls" where you don't catch a ledge at all
• Hunter bunny hopping to keep their pounce distance/damage
• Slashing a witch to activate her once she's begun sensing the survivors
• Pouncing a smoked survivor will not yield any bonus damage from distance.

I've taught myself C++, Pawn, etc

Impressive. I'll admit my experience with coding isn't as diverse as yours. My most applicable experience here would probably be C++. The thing they taught us right off the bat was that you should never reinvent the wheel, if it exists already, you should use it. It's for that reason that I find it very unlikely that the AI director was a complete re-write seeing as it has the same job as the first one, with the addition of the new content.

Source: http://www.afrogamer.com/?p=1702

Eh, if someone other than Chet said it I might find it more believable. I'm not saying he's an outright liar, but I don't think his statement is accurate. If I recall correctly, he's also the one that said L4D1 would be getting new weapons and SI and all that stuff, which obviously isn't true.

How so?

A single player game is designed to have a playtime of anywhere from 8 to 40 hours, depending on what type of game it is. A multiplayer game is designed to have much more playtime involved since you're playing with other people, and the human factor makes it more dynamic, and it depends on community to survive.

You can push out a single player sequel every couple years and it will probably have less outcry from people like me. If you put out a multiplayer sequel every year, people like me tend to get upset because you divide the community and kill the previous game too early.

Take it for what you will. IGN doesn't typically lie about a game's features when they've had the chance to personally play it.

In the interview you linked to, Chet said that one map out of each campaign will shift depending on how you've done on the previous map. That's fine, it's a good feature to have. The problem here is that the impression we were given is that any map can alter depending on how you're doing.

I should also add that I downloaded L4D2 (yay pirates), and played through it with a friend once so far. It's a good game, I enjoyed most of it. Though I still feel that a sequel was unwarranted.

 

[Spunky]

From personal experience off the top of my head:

• Getting stuck on an object
• Survivor crouch/run glitch
• Getting stuck in the "hit by tank" animation until you die
• Catching a ledge after being punched by the tank
• Catching a ledge when the fall wouldn't have killed/damaged you
• Smoker "death pulls" where you don't catch a ledge at all
• Hunter bunny hopping to keep their pounce distance/damage
• Slashing a witch to activate her once she's begun sensing the survivors
• Pouncing a smoked survivor will not yield any bonus damage from distance.

You're like a bug magnet. That's never happened to me, or any of my friends.

Impressive. I'll admit my experience with coding isn't as diverse as yours. My most applicable experience here would probably be C++. The thing they taught us right off the bat was that you should never reinvent the wheel, if it exists already, you should use it. It's for that reason that I find it very unlikely that the AI director was a complete re-write seeing as it has the same job as the first one, with the addition of the new content.

You're not exactly reinventing the wheel. You're using your previous work as a reference for your new work. Rewriting it just makes it easier to manage when you have a lot you need to change. He even said a major reason they rewrote it was to make it modular, so they wouldn't have to rewrite it ever again. They can just pop in content now and it's 1000x easier than it was before.

Eh, if someone other than Chet said it I might find it more believable. I'm not saying he's an outright liar, but I don't think his statement is accurate. If I recall correctly, he's also the one that said L4D1 would be getting new weapons and SI and all that stuff, which obviously isn't true.

I don't see any reason for him to lie about something like a rewrite of the director. What does he stand to gain?

A single player game is designed to have a playtime of anywhere from 8 to 40 hours, depending on what type of game it is. A multiplayer game is designed to have much more playtime involved since you're playing with other people, and the human factor makes it more dynamic, and it depends on community to survive.

You can push out a single player sequel every couple years and it will probably have less outcry from people like me. If you put out a multiplayer sequel every year, people like me tend to get upset because you divide the community and kill the previous game too early.

Alright, that's fair. Most people I know play L4D with their friends, so it's not much of a divide if that's all you do. Pub games are almost always terrible, people only ever play them if there's nobody on their friends list available.

In the interview you linked to, Chet said that one map out of each campaign will shift depending on how you've done on the previous map. That's fine, it's a good feature to have. The problem here is that the impression we were given is that any map can alter depending on how you're doing.

He said at least one, not just one. He was guessing as well, so he probably wasn't sure.

I should also add that I downloaded L4D2 (yay pirates), and played through it with a friend once so far. It's a good game, I enjoyed most of it. Though I still feel that a sequel was unwarranted.

Well, now we can say "to each his own" because you've formed an opinion all on your own (yay!). I still believe L4D2 is a true sequel, not just a rehash, and worth every penny.

 

[Pain]

You're like a bug magnet. That's never happened to me, or any of my friends.

Well, I'll say this. When I was beta testing here at ESF the other testers wouldn't have much to do because I found almost everything. Plus it's what I do for a living right now, so I guess these things just come naturally to me. When a new game comes out the first thing I do is look at how everything works and see if I can break it. I did the same thing to L4D2 when I played with my friend, I'll detail that below.

I don't see any reason for him to lie about something like a rewrite of the director. What does he stand to gain?

I don't know, he could be speaking accurately, I'm just saying I don't trust him.

He said at least one, not just one. He was guessing as well, so he probably wasn't sure.

You're right. That's not my problem though. As I said, I think it is a good feature to have, I'd be happy if it was just one map. The problem I have with this, is that it was implied that the map would change as you are playing on it depending on how well you're doing. The way they have it now seems to be about as dynamic as Diablo 2's randomly generated maps. Again, I'm not saying it's a bad feature, only that it wasn't advertised as accurately as it could have been.

Well, now we can say "to each his own" because you've formed an opinion all on your own (yay!).

Indeed I have. From memory this is what I liked and disliked.

Likes:

• When I got to the lobby of the first map where smoke and fire was everywhere.
• When you open doors that have smoke coming up from underneath, and then the fire spills out into the hallway.
• The feel of melee weapons slicing through infected.
• Coach singing on stage.
• Coach and Nick.
• The new cresendo and finale events, forcing you to move.
• Weather events in Hard Rain.
• Smoker damage buff. It's not like wearing a slightly tight necktie anymore.

Dislikes:

• Ellis. Sometimes he's funny, but most of the time he has me facepalming.
• Rochelle. She almost never talks aside from finding an item or reloading.
• The soda run. That's just stupid. It could've been something more believable like bandages, toilet paper, water, hell even porn mags. I also didn't like that the soda is always in the same place, it should be randomized so you actually have to look for it.
• Hunter trails.
• All the melee weapons do the same amount of damage, also amplified on the tank. Chainsaw does 100 damage per hit regardless. Seems as though they really are mostly reskins of each other.
• Rochelle's "caught by charger" animation. Looks like she's just a ragdoll, the other survivors at least struggle a bit.
• Charger can't charge at point blank.
• Carnival music. Am I being abducted by a UFO?

Random information:

• Tank takes amplified damage from explosives and melee, not sure about normal bullets.
• Tank has 6000hp in vs mode. Any melee weapon will kill the tank in 10 hits, except the chainsaw.
• Incendiary ammo will only temporarily light up a SI.
• Explosive ammo and the grenade launcher will not stumble a tank, or a charging charger.
• Explosive ammo will own the **** out of the witch, since she will continue to stumble as you continue to shoot her.
• The jockey is exceptionally difficult to melee mid-flight.
• Spitter acid does more damage towards the end of its time span.
• Spitter acid from beginning to end will do aprox 75 damage.
• Smoker does amplified damage on a downed survivor.
• It's still possible to "pull a Mario." Jump on a zombie's head and it will die.

There's more of course, that's from what I can remember.

 

[Spunky]

Alright, I'm completely cool with everything you just said haha. I think we're done.

 

[-Origin]

This has to go down as one of the greatest topics ever. It has to.

 

[Pain]

Were you around for the "cats or dogs" thread? That one was pretty good too.

 

[-Origin]

I was. This one tops it. I don't think I've ever seen such an indepth discussion that didn't degrade into namecalling.

I tip my hat to you guys. Well played.

 

[Azraindie]

which one better??.. 1 or 2 ... i play this game on demo ... not much difference ...

 

[Spunky]

L4D2 is better.