High Ki Usage when SSJ

[Disguise]

Well forgive me. I'm fully aware that I haven't played 1.3 and that everything I say is based on theory. Obviously if there was anything I could do to change that I would, but unfortunately I have to be opinionated based on knowing 1.2 and your words, so there's room for misinterpretation... both ways. If you tell me something is the way it is, then I base my assumptions off of that. So in light of your new response hardly stressing the skid, unlike the previous, I'll change my opinion with yours.

If the skid isn't a big deal, then I don't see why it defeats the created extension in the arc.

I've been assuming that you're trying to develop ESF so that Turbo/Charged Turbo can be used effectively while swooping, thus why I make these suggestions. If you fight without Turbo, as you want it, then your sensitivity won't be changed, so there's no big deal.

I'm not saying changing the sensitivity is the best answer, but I think it describes a like solution that should be considered. The best solution would be changing the physics engine, which you're probably already doing. But again, I don't know. Either way, the thread is about Ki consumption, and I've said what I have to say, so I'm done here.

 

[Grega]

But in the end changing the sensetivity wont help you turn faster. Itll only serve so that you move the mouse less to make a bigger rotation. In the end the actuall arc of the turn is not affected by mouse sensetivity. And the arc is only affected by the speed you are traveling at.

If you instantly make a 180° turn you simply slow down while going backwards untill the physics engine turns the speed decrease to 0 and starts going forward again. Ofcourse thats not really noticeable since the duretion from turning round to a complete stop is somewhere below 0.1 seconds. So in the end yes you see that the laws of physics (momentum) works like in real life. The energy has to be channeled from one form to another. But mouse sensetivity doesnt do a thing. So why force people to play with unconstant sensetivity when they themselves can select what they want to play with.

 

[Disguise]

Well in my mind I'm under the impression that the physics engine and the increase in speed are two different things. Since the skid of the physics engine doesn't matter, only the increase in speed remains.

I may be wrong, so please correct me if I am, since I'm no math or science genious here. But essentially if you're going faster, you need a sharper turn to balance it out.

The formula I made might've been wrong. Maybe you only need to increase sensitivity marginally in proportion to speed. Like 10% of the change instead of 100%. EX: 200 - 300, sensitivity 20 - 21.

Either way, the time it takes a player to turn is usually very minimal. At least untrans it is. I think when Transformed, it's more difficult to turn, which is why I say sensitivity adjustments matter. I haven't tested it, so I don't know. Nobody seems to agree, so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Grega]

If by turn you mean the where the player is aiming then its teh same as in 1.2 if by turn you mean where the player is going then that depends on your speed.

If you are flying normally youll literaly turn on a dime, if you are swooping you will notice teh momentum drag you a bit in the direction as your headding changes from forward to left.

Yes how much you "Skid" depends on your speed. I was mearly reffering to all that talk about sensetivity.

The skid isnt all that bad. And the reason why there is less hits isnt with the physics. Its with the corrected hitboxes.

In ESF 1.2 the bounding box of a player was about twice his size. In 1.3 we fixed that. Now its exactly as big as the player himself. So the less hits is becauseif the smaller target rather than the changes due to physics.

 

[Disguise]

If by turn you mean the where the player is aiming then its teh same as in 1.2 if by turn you mean where the player is going then that depends on your speed.

If you are flying normally youll literaly turn on a dime, if you are swooping you will notice teh momentum drag you a bit in the direction as your headding changes from forward to left.

Yes how much you "Skid" depends on your speed. I was mearly reffering to all that talk about sensetivity.

The skid isnt all that bad. And the reason why there is less hits isnt with the physics. Its with the corrected hitboxes.

In ESF 1.2 the bounding box of a player was about twice his size. In 1.3 we fixed that. Now its exactly as big as the player himself. So the less hits is becauseif the smaller target rather than the changes due to physics.

Well that clears up some confusion in the statistics then.

I guess what I'm trying to point at now is not the skid in the physics engine, but just how the shape of the arc itself is affected by increased speed. It makes it so you need to time the turn sooner to hit your mark. Sensitivity is a 'theoretical' solution to return the arc to its original form.

I'll try to demonstrate what I mean... ahh...

Pick up your mouse and swing it around by the cord. Use a constant steady force, and never change it. Now increase the amount of cord you're using. That same force you used before is less effective.

The cord is your swoop speed.
The speed it rotates is your turning speed.
The force of your hand is a constant.
The influence of your hand is the sensitivity.

The opposite effect would be shortening the cord, (reducing swoop speed) and the same motion to turn becomes more responsive.

The idea of increasing sensitivity is to increase the effectiveness of the force of your hand without making you have to do more work. This returns the rotation speed to where it was originally, using the same force of the hand with a longer cord.

It seems like a stretch, and I can't quite tell you how it makes sense, but I feel like it does.

 

[Skiwan]

Fact is, just higher sensitivity means instead of me moving my mouse 4 inches to the left in one second , I need to move it 3 in one second, the speed I move my mouse and how far I have to move it, I'm quite able to adjust myself by judging how fast I should turn, without the computer saying "YOU MUST HAS HIGHER SENS NOW!"

I just think this is a lost cause. Really no use pushing for this sensitivity adjustment.

 

[Grega]

The sensetivity doesnt do a thing for the turn. Since the player turns instantly. Only the path he travels on doesnt make a 90° edge but instead makes a cyrculatory turn.

How big the mouse sensetivity is makes no difference what so ever.

 

[Disguise]

Fact is, just higher sensitivity means instead of me moving my mouse 4 inches to the left in one second , I need to move it 3 in one second, the speed I move my mouse and how far I have to move it, I'm quite able to adjust myself by judging how fast I should turn, without the computer saying "YOU MUST HAS HIGHER SENS NOW!"

I just think this is a lost cause. Really no use pushing for this sensitivity adjustment.

I'm not really pushing for it. I just want to talk about it until it's been exhausted and concluded. At this point that could be any time for all I care lol.

Your point there did give me something better to consider explaining. Higher speeds means you need to start turning sooner. Assuming the arc is the shape I believe it is, a regular angle hit stretched in the direction of the swoop, then it will make it so a player will have to turn the mouse longer and farther when they're moving faster.

Like untrans would be like turning the mouse over 2 seconds, 1 inch each direction.

Trans would be like turning the mouse over 3 seconds, 1 inch each direction.

If you wanted to preserve the timing, you need to change the distance you move the mouse.

Maybe it then becomes 2 seconds, 1.3 inches each direction.

So in order to preserve the timing and the amount of effort used in turning, sensitivity is adjusted.

I think if there's any error here, it's probably in what I think the shape of the arc becomes as speed increases. It might require moving the mouse 1 inch to the right and 2 inches to the left to preserve the timing, which is something sensitivity can't fix.

Playing with a higher sensitivity in general would at least make that end of it easier than a low sensitivity.

 

[Grega]

How long or how fast you turn the mouse is up to you.

The only change they would need is timing. Instead of doing it the last moment youll need to do it a little bit sooner. The speed remains the same. Again speed does not change your characters rate of turn. It only changes the path you are traveling on. So instead of making a sharpe edge you do an actuall turn.

 

[Disguise]

How long or how fast you turn the mouse is up to you.

The only change they would need is timing. Instead of doing it the last moment youll need to do it a little bit sooner. The speed remains the same. Again speed does not change your characters rate of turn. It only changes the path you are traveling on. So instead of making a sharpe edge you do an actuall turn.

Yeah exactly. SPEED affects the rate in which you turn. As you just said so yourself, you need to begin turning sooner. That's because the rate you turn is lessened as speed increases. Thus I say raising the sensitivity would fix that, because you would turn more sharply, which would end up being the exact same kind of turn at lower speeds with a lesser sensitivity.

I think the problem is that when you angle hit you need to turn in both directions, right AND left. Since the ability to turn is reduced for both, you need to turn more dramatically in each direction. Increasing the sensitivity in proportion would make it so the same hand movement and the same timing would work. That's what my argument is.

If you really want to convince me otherwise, show me how the arc changes as the speeds increase. Then demonstrate how the player's input must change in relation to it. If you show me that the player's input changes in a way that sensitivity won't influence it in a positive way, being mouse movement, then I'm all up for it.

Otherwise agree sensitivity will improve it, but it will sacrifice the accuracy in other parts of the swoop... or whatever you want to make up. But telling me that skid matters, skid doesn't matter. Turning speed doesn't decrease... turning speed does decrease... that gets us nowhere fast.

I'm more convinced than ever that sensitivity changes will help the players adapt to higher swoop speeds now.

 

[KYnetiK]

I think you are over dramticising things Disguise. The impact of the swoop speed in practice is pretty negligible in terms of mouse control. Physics itself has a greater impact on your ability to turn accurately...

IMO you should always be playing ESF with a relatively high mouse sensitivity anyway. Too high and it makes things difficult - high rate of turn but lower accuracy. Its one of those things which is left to the players preference and skill/dexterity/accuracy. It doesnt matter what your sensitivity is, as it compensates in different areas. Low sensitivity means you can be accurate but not fast, high sensitivity means you can be fast but less accurate. Player skill can bridge the gap.

Remember MAX swoop speed is faster that before, its not a constant velocity, and you have the drag of physics to take account of whenever you turn. At the end of the day, it comes down to the ability of the player.

Imagine a car game where you play with a steering wheel. Most steering wheel peripherals have a sensitivity dial on the base. Do we disregard other players with different sens settings? No, we accept that the player must compensate in different ways.

 

[Disguise]

I think you are over dramticising things Disguise. The impact of the swoop speed in practice is pretty negligible in terms of mouse control. Physics itself has a greater impact on your ability to turn accurately...

IMO you should always be playing ESF with a relatively high mouse sensitivity anyway. Too high and it makes things difficult - high rate of turn but lower accuracy. Its one of those things which is left to the players preference and skill/dexterity/accuracy. It doesnt matter what your sensitivity is, as it compensates in different areas. Low sensitivity means you can be accurate but not fast, high sensitivity means you can be fast but less accurate. Player skill can bridge the gap.

Remember MAX swoop speed is faster that before, its not a constant velocity, and you have the drag of physics to take account of whenever you turn. At the end of the day, it comes down to the ability of the player.

Imagine a car game where you play with a steering wheel. Most steering wheel peripherals have a sensitivity dial on the base. Do we disregard other players with different sens settings? No, we accept that the player must compensate in different ways.

I'm not trying to be dramatic about anything. There's just nothing else to talk about right now.

I agree that physics does have the greatest impact on your ability to turn, which is why I figured 'relative' sensitivity could account for that. You do make great points though, like higher sensitivity creates inaccuracies and what-not. Either you assume that inaccuracy through sensitivity or through timing, is how I'd argue it. Either way though, at this point I'll assume the three of you who have actually tried the swoop know better than me.

I didn't consider that the swoop speeds themselves wouldn't be constant in itself, like it gradually increases. I knew it, but I didn't consider it here. That just changes a whole bunch of things around in general.

Anyway, whatever, new topic.

And thanks for the insight, KYnetiK.