ESF too difficult?

[Disguise]

I just wanted to bring this up for discussion. I've heard a lot of people say they think that a lot of people don't currently play ESF because it's too difficult. Do you agree? I personally think it's due to a few factors.

One being that the Ki Attack system is poorly mixed with Melee so that you can't use KHH or other Ki Attacks in a flowing combat. Players that enjoy the DBZ theme like using Ki Attacks, and you don't get to use them when you melee, thus it's avoided.

Then there's gliding which I think has the greatest skill curve to learn and apply. It takes a lot of practice to glide well, and it's a vital part of melee in being mobile and conserving Ki.

Overall though I don't think that swoop melee is 'difficult' since it's like every other game where you point and click. The whole mouse hand-eye coordination combat is the same. I think it's just little tricks like gliding and one-hit-kill triple hit ki blasting which turns good players away. I like gliding, others don't. I hate triple hit ki blasting, others love it. But you either like them or you don't, so there's no in between. And unlike an AWP, you can't disable it. It essentially becomes the game.

I would also argue that maybe ESF is too 'simple' for most people to stick with for a long time. There's really limited strategy to the combat, and unlike other games where objectives and different weapons play a role, you're constantly fighting with the same arsenal. Triple hit ki blasting really narrows it down too. If stamina is played right, it can add a new dimension to how you fight. But regardless, I think 1.3 with its new additions alone will compensate for that. So why focus on dumbing down the game play?

What are the most difficult parts of the game to master? What about the game do you have a low tolerance for? Why do you think most people stopped playing? What do you all think?

 

[sub]

I'll copy/paste two posts that I wrote on this subject from old threads

It was interesting reading all of the replies here. I do agree that 1.2.3 is extremely hard to learn, the numbers kind of prove this. 1.2.3 has been downloaded well over a million times, yet we only have a player base of 50 or so people who have stuck with the game. And oddly enough, almost all of these people who have stuck with the game started playing at the same time, right when 1.2.3 was released. I think that, at the time, no one was quite good so new players had room to breathe and learn the game at their own pace. Then as time progressed, the pros got better and better and better until we reach our current point when a new player has almost no chance of learning the game. The problem isn't so much that ESF is hard, all you really need to do is fly into other people holding right click. The problem lies in how good people have become at this system, it's gotten to the point where if you want to get good at ESF, you're going to need 5 months of dying over and over with no chance of even getting a hit, let alone a kill. And after those 5 months, you'll probably only be a decent player compared to the guys at the top.

That's 1.2.3. As DT said, 1.3 is a very different beast. Honestly, 1.3 doesn't even feel like the same game to me. The same basic mechanics are still there, it just feels different, but that's not to say that it's a bad thing. But yes, I'm sure people will still master the game and become godlike at it, but there are some big differences that will hopefully make the game easier to learn. The one button swoop should fix a lot of the complaints about swooping, the ingame tutorial will hopefully provide a safe place for newbs to learn the mechanics of the game, and popup hints should hopefully provide the player with further instruction in actual servers. Plus, the graphics are nicer and we'll have more characters and all of the transformations, that might encourage more people to stick around. Other than this, I'm not sure how you can go about making ESF more newb friendly without drastically changing the mechanics of the game. I guess you can give players a larger ki pool, but that's a delicate balancing act, you have to make the ki pool low enough that ki management still actually matters.

==================================

I'm going to start this off by asking three questions

* Why was there always a constant influx of people learning how to play ESF during 1.1?
* Why isn't there this constant influx of people learning how to play ESF in 1.2?
* Why have all of the players playing ESF today either started in 1.1 or when 1.2 first came out?


The answers to all of these questions lies within how hard it is to learn how to play ESF.

In 1.1, the game was relatively simple to learn. Double click on someone, then double click again to swoop. Hold right click to score a hit. It was an immensely deep system once you learned the ins and outs of it, but it never got to the point where players new to the game had no chance of winning. This is because new players could use HOWing* vs advanced players. New players never felt completely helpless, and eventually, as those who HOWed became better, they stopped using the exploit.

Early on in 1.2, the game was much easier to learn. Because everyone who was previously good had to essentially relearn the game, everyone was on equal ground. Players never felt completely helpless, as there was no one good enough yet to make them feel like they had no chance of winning.

Right now in 1.2, the game is nearly impossible to learn. People have mastered the current mechanics of the game, a newbie coming into ESF will die repeatedly until he asks how to play. The playerbase, tired of the same question over and over, will either not respond or tell said player to RTFM. Of course, the player had no idea there was a manual for the game, it mentions it nowhere. But regardless, even if this new player does read the manual, he is facing what is in his mind an impossible battle in learning how to play the game. New players will have no chance of winning vs a seasoned player and, lacking the crutch that was HOWing, will quit the game.

You see, HOWing was a necessary evil. I realize that everyone hated it at the time, but it really was responsible for a lot of people sticking around and learning to play the game.

 

[Disguise]

Yeah great reply there. Thanks, Sub.

I personally think that the instant recovery will play a huge role on whether players want to keep playing. That will be one of the most important balances you guys will face. And I base this on my extreme dislike for triple hit ki blasts throwing a huge favor to players with higher PL. It practically becomes a one hit kill.

Now that I'm thinking about it, most noobs that play ESF barely get by the initial Untransformed state. Why not allow Untransformed players to Instant Recover more often than Transformed? You just need to tweak the stamina system the right way.

You mentioned enlarging the Ki pool before as a potential option for making the game more noob friendly. I'd suggest making Instant Recovery only consume stamina. That will allow more Ki to be available defensively to counter attack with.

If you make defensive moves consume Ki, it will just spiral downwards.

What do you think?

 

[sub]

I actually think instant recovery will make the game harder for new players. Let's face it, new players weren't even aware you had to hold left click to recover in 1.2. I've met people who were playing for six months and didn't know that holding left click made you recover. I view it as another thing to remember / learn =/

 

[KarrdeKNR]

People really need to read the FAQs/Guides/Instructions First thing I do before I play a mod is learn how all the functions work

 

[Renyori]

Isn't this the same thread as Synth's "Will ESF ever be noob friendly?" thread?

 

[Grega]

Preety much. In any case i dont think 1.2 is hard at all

Sorry for saying this but any person who even played a single fighter game be it console or arcade should not have any problems what so ever to learn the system.

And here is my proof.

I know a couple of people that were pathetic in the game at best. After i finally got them to read the manual they made literally a leap forward. After just so much as simply reading a manual / folowing the flash tutorial they jumped from pathetic gameplay to medicore. And with medicore i mean guys who cant really toutch pros but still beat up noobs easily.

Sure fighting a pro is like going up against a God. You dont stand a chance unless you are on the same level. But if just figuring out the game can make such a difference then i see people becoming atlest semi pro level within 2 weeks of them starting.

But i do agree with Sub. HOWing was defenitly the big star of hope for the new players in 1.1

And i can defenitly see 1.3 beeing similar on new people as 1.2

BUt the ingame tutorial should atleast tell them how the game works.

 

[sub]

Preety much. In any case i dont think 1.2 is hard at all

Sorry for saying this but any person who even played a single fighter game be it console or arcade should not have any problems what so ever to learn the system.

And here is my proof.

I know a couple of people that were pathetic in the game at best. After i finally got them to read the manual they made literally a leap forward. After just so much as simply reading a manual / folowing the flash tutorial they jumped from pathetic gameplay to medicore. And with medicore i mean guys who cant really toutch pros but still beat up noobs easily.

Sure fighting a pro is like going up against a God. You dont stand a chance unless you are on the same level. But if just figuring out the game can make such a difference then i see people becoming atlest semi pro level within 2 weeks of them starting.

But i do agree with Sub. HOWing was defenitly the big star of hope for the new players in 1.1

And i can defenitly see 1.3 beeing similar on new people as 1.2

BUt the ingame tutorial should atleast tell them how the game works.

There are two main problems. People actually need to read the manual to learn the game mechanics. Not a huge deal, but honestly, most people won't. The other big problem is that, even if you do read the manual and practice a bit, the playerbase is so low that you're never going to be fighting against someone whose as good as you, you're going to be fighting against some pretty godlike players. Even if you learn the basics, what good does it do if you have little chance of winning anytime within the next 6 months?

 

[vegetaspride]

Since this question is discussed in another thread I won't repeat myself.

Sub has great observations, I agree with each one of them.


I will add two things:

-This is a game it has to be fun. A low level player fighting against a pro is NO fun. It is not about winning or loosing. You have to have fun even if you are getting beaten up. Right now the old engine is very similar to the old Street fighter games where the low level player nearly gets "humiliated".

-Not everyone have to play competetively. Not everyone have to play for several weeks solid to have a little fun. Right now the few players that are left are taking the game too seriously. It is nearly impossible to relax and play.



The mod is nearly dead although it has the great DBZ fan base.


The developers should value the feedback of new players (or some "rare" pro players like Sub) in the beta testing period to solve this issue...

 

[SSJ4boneVegeta]

Is ESF difficult? I would say no. We've all learnt it. Mastering the game however is challenging.

I just want to say that keeping bots is probably an integral part of learning to play. Bots for one have different difficulties, so the player can choose accordingly. They also teach a player certain maneuvers or tactics. It's honestly how I learned to advanced melee with goku by blocking a bot's overuse of advanced melee. Lastly it helps to build confidence.

 

[hleV]

I have never considered ESF as a difficult game. After you learn to swoop, change directions while swooping, teleport, avoiding and making adv. melee combos, 1 week is more than enough for you to learn the game well and like it.

 

[En'me]

Yes, that's true, but there's another problem that lies with-in the age of the people who play. 9 - 12 year old kids are mostly attracted to the DBZ universe and thus ESF aswell. An 11 year old can hardy be considered to want to stick with the game to learn it, not to mention that not everyone is from countries where English would be tought, and even if it is, many people have problems regarding english, so even when we come down to the tutorials or manuals, it may not work out for certain people of certain countries and ages.

We need to face it, that some problems will persist, although the team has already made a drastic advanced toward newbie friendly interface.

After all, I think we all agree, that ESF should stay in it's own unique catagory and should not take the style which other console games present.

 

[Bandock]

I don't consider 1.2-1.2.3 hard to learn at all. However, I haven't really played with anybody (like ya of course) on any live server. I used to only play either against bots or other players on LAN (mainly against my brother and/or sister). I do hope to play online eventually, but been kind of busy lately.

I consider it a smart thing that the staff released a manual (or something) to 1.2 before it went public if my memory serves me right.

That reminds me, does anybody still the cliff jump?

 

[Grega]

If you mean walljump. I do it all the time.

As for the manual. Its in your ESF directory. You allso have a shortcut to it in your start menu under "Earth's Special Forces"

 

[En'me]

I don't consider 1.2-1.2.3 hard to learn at all. However, I haven't really played with anybody (like ya of course) on any live server. I used to only play either against bots or other players on LAN (mainly against my brother and/or sister). I do hope to play online eventually, but been kind of busy lately.

I consider it a smart thing that the staff released a manual (or something) to 1.2 before it went public if my memory serves me right.

That reminds me, does anybody still the cliff jump?

Don't want to sound smart here, but bots don't compare with regular players. 'cause bots were coded to play the team though they would play, while online players found out tricks and other "exploits", that aren't in necessary violation of the server rules. Like gliding for instance and other things.

And, wall jump? Hell yeah!¨Some people think you can't use it, be when you're in a pinch'u or cornered, hell, just jump off the wall. xD

 

[Grega]

Don't want to sound smart here, but bots don't compare with regular players. 'cause bots were coded to play the team though they would play, while online players found out tricks and other "exploits", that aren't in necessary violation of the server rules. Like gliding for instance and other things.

Wrong. Bots are easier cause they dont have any tactic. They go straight for you. You can exploit that to be honest.

THough a bot with 100% teleport and simple melee can be quite hard to take down. Since he allways teleports away XD

 

[nihao]

thats, what ur supposed to use to practice, so that you learn to make ppl waste ki, that and its really hard to side hit bots because they have auto aim. but they are still no comparison to a human.

 

[En'me]

Wrong. Bots are easier cause they dont have any tactic. They go straight for you. You can exploit that to be honest.

THough a bot with 100% teleport and simple melee can be quite hard to take down. Since he allways teleports away XD

Yarr, that's what I've been saying. I said you can exploit it. ALL IN ALL, bots are easier to defeat than regular players, that's what I mean. I apologozie for my being a typo, lolz. xD

 

[Raine]

"One being that the Ki Attack system is poorly mixed with Melee so that you can't use KHH or other Ki Attacks in a flowing combat. Players that enjoy the DBZ theme like using Ki Attacks, and you don't get to use them when you melee, thus it's avoided."

Thats why i dont play anymore.

EDIT:: The game is still the best internet DB game out there, so i should learn to appreciate this game exists; there is always room for improvement though. Strange, but the game seemed so much nicer 5 years ago. Great job on ESF, but that melee/energy mix really needs to be improved on.