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I'm telling you, you're diggin your own grave. If anything, at least remove the teleport delay, don't lower it. No, REMOVE it completely, that'll take at least a few restrictions away.

But about the simple melee again, you say that the old veterans will dominate ESF again. That brings me back to my first story, if they want to win that bad, let them work for it. If you don't have time to play then why are you even playing games in the first place? If you want to relax or have fun then there are enough other mods/games that aren't hard to learn.


"its funny what you say, because today i hosted a game simple melee only cvar, i was waiting for an hour, in that time i got 2 players in there, and both quit when they found out there was no advanced melee and the knockback was huge."

1. Tele delay
2. Eveyone who was any good at 1.1 never joined your server or has already stopped playing in the first place.

"What are you so afraid of with adapting? is it possible that there is an idea even better than to change it back to 1.1/1.0? one that will satisfy everyone.... there is an answer but you dont have it, neither do i, because its all down to opinion. You arent right, you only have your opinion."

Maybe I do have an opinion, but I am not alone who thinks the same way.

"I dont want 1.0/1.1 melee put back in because i like to have control of my character, ya know? If im getting killed i wanna defend myself. im sorry if that goes right over your head, but thats the only problem with 1.1 melee >_> and the head ons....."

I agree, that's one thing that COULD be changed but it's like anything else - "just do this and that and you'll be fine". Did you read that thread about the dude complaining about telepunch spamming? This is pretty similar and besides.... that is YOUR opinion.
 
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you think it was a solid concept because you used to be the man at it.

"why not let US choose?" thats what im saying, personaly and other will agree, i dont want the simple melee back like it was in 1.0/1.1, so you have to work on a solution that everyone can agree on.

its funny what you say, because today i hosted a game simple melee only cvar, i was waiting for an hour, in that time i got 2 players in there, and both quit when they found out there was no advanced melee and the knockback was huge.

What are you so afraid of with adapting? is it possible that there is an idea even better than to change it back to 1.1/1.0? one that will satisfy everyone.... there is an answer but you dont have it, neither do i, because its all down to opinion. You arent right, you only have your opinion.

I dont want 1.0/1.1 melee put back in because i like to have control of my character, ya know? If im getting killed i wanna defend myself. im sorry if that goes right over your head, but thats the only problem with 1.1 melee >_> and the head ons.....

You arent listening, therefore there is no comprimise.... the whole title of this thread is pretty ironic, considering what you are asking
Okay, toughguy, let's get this straight. You claim 1.1 is the same as 1.2 with a simple melee cvar? If that's the case, you better start running, because others will put you down big-time for saying that. 1.2 does not even look like 1.1, melee-wise. If it were all that easy, there wouldn't be any complaining. Slow gamespeed + enormous knockback = madness, I thought you figured that by now. Hence I had a go at your first suggestion. It's because it's not as simple as you think it is
hear simple melee is being tweaked anyway, maybe you'll be lucky.
No use if the teleport delay is still there
 
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What David said again, sums up everything.

Why don't you work on being good in 1.2? Rather than have new players have to step back to play a method which was obviously considered impractical compared to the current method. People do have lives outside ESF, Its a great game, but you can't exclude people who haven't the time to practice 24/7 they're 'digging their own graves' by restricting it to players who need to practice all the time. Games become instantly more popular if all it takes to become good is 1/2 an hour. People are gonna stop playing because its difficult and they get owned. You're only saying one side and as David says, not willing to compromise.
 
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TheMasta said:
Okay, toughguy, let's get this straight. You claim 1.1 is the same as 1.2 with a simple melee cvar? If that's the case, you better start running, because others will put you down big-time for saying that. 1.2 does not even look like 1.1, melee-wise. If it were all that easy, there wouldn't be any complaining. Slow gamespeed + enormous knockback = madness, I thought you figured that by now. Hence I had a go at your first suggestion. It's because it's not as simple as you think it is
No use if the teleport delay is still there

Okay.... instead of putting words in my mouth, things i didnt even say or imply. I used that as a referance, that not everyone likes the 1.1 style melee, which you all seem to bum into the ground. And did i not say earlier not much change in the knockback distance because as it is noobs get the double hit thesedays? or did you go blind while reading that part? and did i not say i dont approve of the tele delay? Jeesuz christ this is like teaching a nursery class.

"Maybe I do have an opinion, but I am not alone who thinks the same way." neither am i, so who's right? Neither. hence... theres that word again.... comprimise ;o


"I agree, that's one thing that COULD be changed but it's like anything else - "just do this and that and you'll be fine". Did you read that thread about the dude complaining about telepunch spamming? This is pretty similar and besides.... that is YOUR opinion."

erm, did you go blind while reading my posts too? i said myself, i dont have the answer, its not like i magically know how to solve this dispute, hence why i asked for suggestions on my idea, or critique, some kind of input from people who didnt like the idea, or you could just scrap the whole thing and make another idea. I agree with you, simple melee now needs to be changed, i think it should be like 1.1, I really do, but i think that it should be adapted slightly, so people can have more input, control and tactics in their gameplay. I think anyone who likes to become skilled at any game likes those 3 things, input, control, and tactics. Im trying to make it better for everone, not cause a dispute here, i just want people to get along, and make this game better. Im just saying going with one side (we love 1.1 side) rather than the other (we love 1.2 side) it will inevitably disapoint some players, hence why im trying to drill this idea of comprimise to you.

But in the end, we cant do **** but argue, while the team do their thing.
 
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Simply because you can't be "good" at 1.2. If you want, you can script some keys to make things easier. Which is pretty compareable to no-teleport-delay/binding, eh? Most of the players love a good challenge. I started myself, as well. I got beaten and prodded all around. It's just that that pounding just made you want to pound that guy into oblivion. Which you'd have to work for.

Let's take grOOvy for example. In 1.0, he played 16 hours per day, minimum. Now, that's pretty extreme, isn't it? Yet, he wasn't the best. He could beat most of the players, but he wasn't the best. And the "best" didn't play long at all. So much for your "If you play alot you become the best" theory. Lynx didn't play that often and pretty owned every player around. So yeah, just mentioning.
"Games become instantly more popular if all it takes to become good is 1/2 an hour. People are gonna stop playing because its difficult and they get owned. You're only saying one side and as David says, not willing to compromise."

You're just sadly mistaken over there. Do you even have an idea of how ESF started? Well, excluding the alpha crap. Let's start with 1.0. You had like zero good players around, in the start, that is. A few managed to "dominate" servers and other kept practising. The game became such a hit because it was a quite much of a challenge. I played it because it was fast-paced to begin with, plus I had this thing for DBZ. Anyhow, getting back at your quote. What makes you possibly think things go like that? Diablo2 was(is) played for a LONG time. It takes ages to gain experience and level up. It takes work to do so. You have to do your very best to survive over the internet. Do you have any idea why 1.2 has few loyal players still playing? Most of the players pretty much had it. I rest my case.
 
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I did, believe me, and I am good at it so don't give me that crap. I stopped playing because I didn't ENJOY it anymore. You can put this on all me and others but we too have the right to defend our position, we too can express our opinion.... or can we?

I AM willing to compromise but I won't 'settle' for anything until I am happy, just as much as you don't want it to be completely reverted. Why do you think I'm defending my opinion here? If I know another mod that is just as fun I'll just go there but I haven't found the mod that can replace ESF so of course I still want to have fun don't I?

Games become instantly more popular if all it takes to become good is 1/2 an hour. People are gonna stop playing because its difficult and they get owned.

UT2004 anyone?
UT2004 has a large community so there are enough people to compromise the "ownage" of the good players.

Like TheMasta states, if you can beat the best players within 1/2 hour is there anything left to play for? Sure, getting beaten all the time isn't fun either but it'll give you something to work for if you're playing others. If you keep meeting this 'legend' you have to urge to one day beat him meaning you will play more. There are always two sides on everything so don't blame everything on me.

It is true that we need to think of a solution. So let's state what we think should change. I've already stated mine 3x by now but again:

1. Remove the tele delay completely
2. Revert or at least change simple melee
 
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Carnage said:
I did, believe me, and I am good at it so don't give me that crap. I stopped playing because I didn't ENJOY it anymore. You can put this on all me and others but we too have the right to defend our position, we too can express our opinion.... or can we?

I AM willing to compromise but I won't 'settle' for anything until I am happy, just as much as you don't want it to be completely reverted. Why do you think I'm defending my opinion here? If I know another mod that is just as fun I'll just go there but I haven't found the mod that can replace ESF so of course I still want to have fun don't I?

Games become instantly more popular if all it takes to become good is 1/2 an hour. People are gonna stop playing because its difficult and they get owned.

UT2004 anyone?
UT2004 has a large community so there are enough people to compromise the "ownage" of the good players.

Like TheMasta states, if you can beat the best players within 1/2 hour is there anything left to play for? Sure, getting beaten all the time isn't fun either but it'll give you something to work for if you're playing others. If you keep meeting this 'legend' you have to urge to one day beat him meaning you will play more. There are always two sides on everything so don't blame everything on me.

It is true that we need to think of a solution. So let's state what we think should change. I've already stated mine 3x by now but again:

1. Remove the tele delay completely
2. Revert or at least change simple melee
I agree, i never said you werent anygood, i know from what ive heard, you'd probably dominate me anyday, im just saying simply reverting it, has its downpoints as well as pluses.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage, the 1
A question for pcjoe: Alot of threads had been closed that were about the tele - delay, and some said that it is going to be a permanent featue of esf, is this true?

I dont really care too much. I could bring it up in a team meeting to get it removed...
This is what PcJoe posted about the teleport delay.
 
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Ok, I've might have been a little too defensive and I don't mind if simple melee is changed. The problem is that I think there won't be a good enough replacement for it. I'm afraid that when they change it, it won't be as good as it was before.

I have already come up with a new melee system a long time ago which seemed to get positive responses but I still don't know if the team will use any of it or not or if they thought it was a good idea.

Basically, I want to know how the team feels about 1.2 and if they are planning on changing it, how and when. If those questions are answered we can have a new discussion :p
 
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i remember that thread, it had a lot of good ideas in, i certainly hope they took some onboard
 
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Carnage said:
I'm telling you, you're diggin your own grave. If anything, at least remove the teleport delay, don't lower it. No, REMOVE it completely, that'll take at least a few restrictions away.
Being able to defend yourself during the combos would take restrictions away too which just happens to be in the suggestion davidskiwan made.

Carnage said:
The problem is that I think there won't be a good enough replacement for it. I'm afraid that when they change it, it won't be as good as it was before.
Well if they change it could it get any worse than it is now? Let's just see how it goes and hope for the best, they may surprise you and come up with something that you find you like better than the 1.1 melee.
 
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People seem not to realize that the people who dominated 1.0 and 1.1 also dominate 1.2. The only difference now is they aren't having nearly as much fun.

You guys say people like Carnage are afraid of change, and yet you are afraid that things might go back to the ways of old, and once more you will be owned? Sounds slightly hypocritical to me.

Carnage's melee system sounded very good. His proposed system is the only one that has made me say, "Holy ****, that sounds fun".

In regards to simple melee: The knockbacks in 1.1 were ridiculously long.

Decrease the knockback length a bit, but leave the knockback speed the same. Remove the tele delay, increase swoop speed, decrease swoop ki consumption, and now we have a good mod. Take the best parts from Carnage's melee system and now we have a game worth playing for more than 30 minutes at a time.
 
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i like that idea...it puts BOTH systems in their entirety back into the game...

and if push comes to shove u can add cvars so that when u make a server u can choose either simple only, adv only, or both...now y is that so bad?...that way the ppl that like the simple melee can fight only with simple if they want...the ppl that like adv melee can fight only with adv melee if they want...and the ppl that want to be inovative and combine the two into an all inclusive style (which was promised when 1.2 was in developement >_>) can if they want to..

of course like was stated b4 the shortcommings of 1.1 melee and 1.2 gameplay should be fixed...like the head on thing...the length/speed of knockbacks...etc..

but how is that NOT a comprimise...that way everyone gets what they want...they get the no lock on swoop...they get wall jump...they get the new textures...they get the new anims and eye candy...they get the new 1.2 adv melee system...AND they get the old 1.1 'simple' melee system...which is able to be toggled whenever u want it to be...the way i see it thats not alienating anyone...and should make everyone happy because realistically theres no way in hell that the game is gonna satisfy everyone...thats just a fact...but at least this way it can come pretty close
 
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People seem not to realize that the people who dominated 1.0 and 1.1 also dominate 1.2. The only difference now is they aren't having nearly as much fun.
True,if we were to be afraid of changes, we would never played 1.2 in the first place.I played 1.2 and was "good" at it. If ur good at 1.1 it AUTOMATICLY makes u good at 1.2, 1.2 is 1.1 with ALOT of RESTRICTIONS and advanced melee where only random's are hits. If ur a noob in 1.2 it is 10x easier to master the melee system. I really think the team should take a look at carnage thread with suggestions for a new melee system since it keeps both sides satisfied.
 
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The thing is... im getting tired of this now, but one last time. Advanced melee, no one is talking about touching, this is all about the 1.1 melee, hence the comprimising to be taken place is on how to include 1.1 melee. 1.1 melee was taken out because it was really exploitable for people that could only need to hit someone once and teleport combo the rest untill the oponent was dead, sorry but it is an exploit, may take skill to do, but so does the hours some people put into hacking, it doesnt justify not giving your opponent a chance to respond. I dont wanna argue about this, i agree it takes skill, and i agree it takes practice, and i agree it looks cool, but it takes your opponent out of the game meaning you are just fighting a flying body, nothing else. What i propose is a way to fix both, so you can have your precious 1.1 melee with unlimited combo's and no tele delay, but allow that floating target to have some kind of say in what happens. If you are so keen on the skilled players being unbeatable then you'll find a way to get past it (hitting past the blocking) and then you'll be even better, so whats the problem?

The thing all you *cough* l337 players, fail to understand, is that you make a game for the average player, you want the game to appeal to as many people as you can, its called appealing to the masses, important in all computer games, its ment so people can pick up a game, and master it if they put the time in. The game isnt ment for the l337 players only, they're just as important as the guy that gets 20 kills 30 deaths in most games he plays.

Im not afraid of being beaten by 1.1 players, because i know i can learn it.... its just practice, I sucked at 1.2 for a very long time, untill i started to practice more.
 
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Um..yeah. Im talking about Carnage's melee thread. It basically revamps the simple melee system, so everyone would start out as a noob. There wouldn't be many "leets" because everyone would need to learn the new system.

Im looking more for a fun melee system than our "precious 1.1 melee".
 
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Rocky87 said:
So instead of preparing ESF for 1.3 you want to go back to 1.1?

I somehow doubt the team will back track, nor do I think they're gonna be waiting on the edge of their seats to see all kinds of funky ideas that will come into this thread.

They know what they're doing. Leave it to them.
Hey guess what.

Do you know how fast the new transformations in 1.3 are going to become old? Very ****ing fast.

After seeing it twice I, and alot of players won't even notice transforming. Hell I don't even notice the transformations now. I think they are just a waste of time, and should be trashed they should just work on things that matter. 1.3 is basically EVM except its official.

What we won't is gameplay not cool flashy effects. I rather just have them work on the melee system, and other gameplay elements (beams) instead of working on stupid transformations no one cares about. The majority of the community only plays in normal mode anyway. Every tournament = Normal form. Not SSJ form, normal form. Plus in tournaments, and clan matches people don't even get to transform hell they even restrict signatured moves (Beams, Instant attacks (lasers), Disks, and the like except ki blasts, and generic stuff.)

So inputting more transformations are pointless.
 
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If you noticed SSJ Shin Carl we are talking about the melee system.
 
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if you noticed Cap J, we're talking about ways to change esf 1.2.1 for 1.2.2 as that is the topic. His post is completely relevant.

I disagree though, it means the higher the transform the more speed, which everyone in this thread has been criticising 1.2 for, i myself think it is a little slow and could do with a nice boost. Transforming to different forms will improve this, let alone transformation tactics i find prove very useful sometimes (especially for team games).... fighting in normal form while everyone else is ssj is one nice way to get ahead of everyone. There are also new attacks etc. It broadens your options and gives you new opurtunities, which i like =P

I think the team should focus on melee too, i like it now, but there are many ways it could be better.
 
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If you noticed he was talking about 1.3, not 1.2.2. And his post was basically b******g about the transformations.

And SSJ Shin Carl, not everyone thinks the transformations are pointless. I mayself am looking forward to gaining SSJ3 and so forth.
 

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