Changes

[TheMasta]

to begin with i loved the whole 1.2 thing, it had everything, but the better i got the more i wanted to dominate players with teleport and swoop tricks... Personaly, i think they should extend the knock back, and keep the 2 hit combo max the same, but it would be harder to do with a quicker and longer knockback, after that i have a few idea's how it could go >_> after you hit them twice back, and you telport to them again, if they have anough ki and hold block and aim at you wen your about to hit them (so angles would get round this), they grab you, and you throw you with one twist of their body in a direction they look at, you take damage depending on what you hit yourself against or non at all

You loved it because you weren't used to speed. It had nothing. It had good look graphics as opposed to 1.1, that's it. You're not making sense here. A longer knockback wouldn't improve anything. The gameplay is still slow-paced. Plus it would be unbalanced. Go figure why.

However you can only do this after the second smack, and the defending player needs enough ki to swing you around, if they dont have quite enough to throw (about 1/4 of a bar, pl dependant) but you have enough to block, you take no damage from the hit but your knockback gets increased in length again (so hitting against walls will hurt but not
This would solve 2 problems with lengthy teleport combo's both players have input, but its truely dependant on skill rather than just learning how to dominate a player with teleports and punches... and no i dont mean that 1.1 combo's took no skill just saying that it would be harder this way, which is what all the skilled players want.

Only after the first smack? 1.2 was supposed to be newbish, not for leets, remember? And a second hit would at least require 5 minutes tops, which is way too much for an average newbie. Nice try, though. And basically, it wouldn't solve anything. It would be wide open for exploits and chain-combos, which the ESF-Team doesn't want because it's all too fast.

Let's put an emphasis on "it would be harder this way". 1.2 is in no single way harder than 1.1, period. Everyone knows that. If you somehow fail to comply, try doing a 6 combo in 1.1, You can't. Simply because it's too fast. Skilled players want nothing to do with 1.2. They want the fast-paced stuff back again. And that's not just "combos".

 

[Skiwan]

well instead of insulting me, and thinking i know nothing maybe you should have listened to the ideas. In 1.2 knockback distance/speed was decreased, im saying lengthen it again, not much, but enough, because right now i can get double hits way too easy, im saying make it harder, which is what you want isnt it? all hail teh l337 players? or did you want the noob friendly version?

What i mean by the second smack, is a combo if simple melee, after youve hit them twice with the melee, you can try to block their atempts, if you'd like it to be so they can block the second then so be it. Im saying in my post to allow chain combo's like you want BUT let players defend themselves, at least a little ¬_¬.

what are you afraid of? all im saying is give people the chance to use 1.1 melee and be able to defend themselves against attacks you cant stop, its unfair, its like pummeling the fat kid at school cuz he cant run away.

Your criticism on "it would be harder this way" is completely unfounded as you havent even tried what ive suggested yet, my hypothesis is, it would be harder for some1 to perform a 6 hit chain combo on you if the other player could block, to me it seems perfectly sensible, instead of it being dependent on just your movements, your ki, your attacks, it would also depend on your opponents ki, and his reaction skills, increasing the number of variables, opening new possibilities, and new situations, rather than depending on one player.

This fast paced stuff is utter crap imo, for a start swooping had a lock on in 1.1, meaning all the time you're being guided towards the player you are swooping at, if you had that speed swoop without the targeting you'd never be able to hit the other oponent, as ive read in previous discussions from team members you would just slide of the other player all the time, so unless you want the lock on system, and no room for speeds with higher transformations then fine, but to me thats idiotic and makes no sense. You shoot yourself in the foot with the fast paced thing, because imo its all relative, its all dependant on distance over time (what speed is), fights are much closer these days in distance, the time it takes to get from player to play mid fight is probably almost the same as in 1.1, the speed was greater then, but fights between oponents were equally proportionally further apart. True speed still has a big part to play, but the theory remains similar, not the same, but similar. Also your speed in 1.1 and your mouse sensitivity was rediculous, moving your mouse frantically is not my idea of fun. It seems to me that people think speed is a form of skill, or something to that effect, or its just another thing people can ***** about for their short comings in the new releases.

Here i offer a solution to both sides of the equation, a balanced and fair chance for both sides to get what they want, harder and longer chain combo's unlimited hits, while giving the player that is being kicked around a way of defense, if you are so "skilled" surely you'll get past that defense. If you dont like being beaten around a map not being able to have any say in what happens (momentarily being out the game) then you could do something about it, if your fast enough and conserve your ki correctly.

I thought the perpose of this thread was to come up with ideas to improve gameplay for the up coming release, not start a war about 1.1 melee being the best and all should hail it. I sure as hell dont want it to be put back into the game as it used to be, its needs to be adapted thats all im saying, i would love it to be much more controllable, but i want better defenses as well of attacks. I like chain combo's who doesnt? but it would be nice if the other player had some sort of say in the matter, instead of it essentially being a one hit kill game, i think there would be a lot LOT more skill if you could perform a chain combo while the other guy was trying his best to block/defend himself, because it makes it that little bit harder, gives you another obstical to get around, if you can do that, good for you, but i dont want to have no say in what happens to me when i get hit, thats like how u can roll across the floor now and get hit 5 times in a row and not do a thing about it. You ever had that happen? then you know what i mean.

I just wanna satisfy both sides, i dont see what peoples problem is. If they're so scared of change, its sad. Ive been around scince 1.0 and ive loved the game ever scince.

 

[MysticUub]

i like it...the only thing i wanna clear up is weather or not the tele restrictions will still be there...cause if they are then making the knockback speed/distance faster/longer it would be almost impossible to get that second hit anyway...much less a third or fourth because of ki consumption alone...

which is another thing i think should be changed....the amount of ki it takes to teleport is kinda rediculous now...i mean...i used to be able to get twice as many teles out of an untransed gohan than i can now...i mean what was the point of increasing the ki consumption of a tele?...now to say that it was so ppl didnt 'exploit' it (theres that stupid word again ) is dumb...because u put the time restriction on it...so now not only can we not tele as fast as we want...but we are restricted again by not being able to tele much at all...which makes it even harder to get away from big map nuking beams...i think it should be one or the other...either the time restriction or the ki consumption....but not both

 

[Zeonix]

Leave the ki consumption for teleporting the way it is. Decrease the amount of ki needed for swooping.

 

[TheMasta]

I'm afraid of nothing more than your idea actually brought into the game. You obviously know nothing of ESF. 1.2's entire gameplay speed was decreased, not just the knockback speed. And a minor adjustment isn't going to settle for that. Period.
About that fat kid being pummeled, I think that's a great idea. If he gets pummeled, he'll have to do something about it. He either avoides the problem or simply starts thinking of a possible solution. And that's what's missing in ESF, the "thing" to even think of counters. There was also this time of the ki-whores. The game just forced you to somehow use another method to beat most of the players. And that just vanished in 1.2, making it obsolete. Pretty much.
The problem here is difficulty. People in 1.1 had to train for WEEKS to master a combo. That's what makes a game attractive. Graphics are just eye-candy, you'll have enough of that the day after. We need some serious changing here. And re-implying the 1.1 system is the best so far. It's all difficulty. So, making a combo hard to perform (i.e. 1.1 combos) will attract more people. And I'm not talking arrow spamming.
Also, there are no both sides. We're all players. 1.2 had no difficulty at all. Hence alot of players quit. And there's no possible way you can mix up a slow-paced 1.2 with a fast-paced 1.1. I think you got that by now. There's not much to it. If you want to solve the problem, get the simple melee back and somehow "improve" it if you wish, just keep it fast. And of course, SIMPLE. Hence it's called simple melee.
Back to your suggestion, "double" smacks ain't going to cut it. Gameplay speedx20/no teleport delay/swoop fastening will. Go figure.

 

[Cap J]

Saying someone knows nothing about something is a poor argument when it is about A GAME. You can't say that someone knows nothing of something when you have no idea how much they know, he could know more than you.

And about that fat kid, do remember that not everyone can avoid it, and saying that the kid needs to think of a solution, that is why there are so many suicides.

Anyway, on-topic:-

Not everyone WANTS to train for weeks, lots of people like a game that you can get into quickly and have fun with. Game play speed times 20? Yeah, GREAT idea, I REALLY want to hit the opposite wall as soon as I start swooping. Swoop fastening......what? You want to fasten swoop to something? What do you mean?

Personally I like davidskiwan's suggestion and think it would be a good idea to TRY IT OUT before you shrug it off saying that it will not do. I think this would be good added into the game. Remember, in the series it wasn't just one person swooping and hitting the other person until he died without being able to do anything about it.

 

[Skiwan]

I'm afraid of nothing more than your idea actually brought into the game. You obviously know nothing of ESF. 1.2's entire gameplay speed was decreased, not just the knockback speed. And a minor adjustment isn't going to settle for that. Period.
About that fat kid being pummeled, I think that's a great idea. If he gets pummeled, he'll have to do something about it. He either avoides the problem or simply starts thinking of a possible solution. And that's what's missing in ESF, the "thing" to even think of counters. There was also this time of the ki-whores. The game just forced you to somehow use another method to beat most of the players. And that just vanished in 1.2, making it obsolete. Pretty much.
The problem here is difficulty. People in 1.1 had to train for WEEKS to master a combo. That's what makes a game attractive. Graphics are just eye-candy, you'll have enough of that the day after. We need some serious changing here. And re-implying the 1.1 system is the best so far. It's all difficulty. So, making a combo hard to perform (i.e. 1.1 combos) will attract more people. And I'm not talking arrow spamming.
Also, there are no both sides. We're all players. 1.2 had no difficulty at all. Hence alot of players quit. And there's no possible way you can mix up a slow-paced 1.2 with a fast-paced 1.1. I think you got that by now. There's not much to it. If you want to solve the problem, get the simple melee back and somehow "improve" it if you wish, just keep it fast. And of course, SIMPLE. Hence it's called simple melee.
Back to your suggestion, "double" smacks ain't going to cut it. Gameplay speedx20/no teleport delay/swoop fastening will. Go figure.

omg , did you not listen to what i said? I said make it like 1.1 melee but allow for the person who's the victim of an unstoppable kill do something about it. You want it to be shotgun rule? who hits first wins? wtf? have you heard of something called tactics? yeah thats what 1.1 lacked in (i know teleport and swoop, but now its got a lot more substance and more variety), but 1.2 has an abundance of, i dont care what you say ive played both games long enough to figure that out. About the point where you somehow over looked i was trying to give you a solution, giving even harder than 1.1 combo's for you to do, as the other person actually gets some say in what happens to them, instead of being a rag doll to be tossed around the map. Im saying make it like 1.1 melee :\ maybe take out the teleport delay (or shorten it if thats possible) dont make the swoop faster, because remember you need room for transformations, and you can actually hit your opponent at the speeds now. I dont know whats up your ass, but unwillingness to change is usually caused by fear... what are you afraid of?

And as you keep saying, go figure, i have, and ive put a lot more thought into it than you obviously.... as to come up with a solution that would satisfy both sides, im not a nazi im not saying people who love 1.2 melee are bad or people that like 1.1 melee are bad, they both have their good/bad points, therefore it seems perfectly logical to try to intergrate the two in a balanced and fair way, for everyone, not just the 1.2 lovers, or the 1.1 lovers, everyone. Unity, what a great word :]. If you dont like my idea, suggest a better one, or point out what you dont like, what you do like, bashing me isnt gonna help.

 

[MajinDruu]

ESF can only get better (or so i hope).

Thats what I thought when i played ESF 1.1...
Damn i was wrong...
so... so wrong...

and anyway , On topic:

Problem with ESF so many people want to take it in differnt directions ...
A nice idea would be to put restrictions on things like
No crappy advanced melee , period...
Yet if you wanted it , make a console command to be able to turn it on

so you could switch style between 1.1 and 1.2 when/if the players wanted it

however this has been said alot but i really do want to stress the point that without a option like this ESF will be abandond...

 

[Zeonix]

I said that because of how 1.2 is. Certainly, ESF can not get any worse at this point.

 

[MajinDruu]

I said that because of how 1.2 is. Certainly, ESF can not get any worse at this point.

Bet ya 100 Bucks it can ... they could put in more direction pressing ... and make the beams more effective ...
they could make it MORE n00b friendly

 

[Chrono5788]

Everyone swooping slower doesn't generally effect gameplay that much as far as I've seen, especially since the swoop speed is still relatively quick. And it gets much faster when you go SSJ.

There is, in fact, a cvar that gets rid of advanced melee. It's called mp_simplemelee, and setting it to 1 removes the ability to use advanced melee. It also removes the 2 hit cap while increasing knockback speed drastically to the point where you have no chance of making it without teleporting. However, swoop speeds are still the same.

The level of difficulty of the game isn't the game's fault in this case, it's the fault of the players on your server. There are plenty of excellent 1.2 players, you just have to find them.

In 1.1, you could only swoop to whoever you were locked onto. This sucked. Battles were generally lacking in variety, especially since switching out of slot 1 lost your target. On top of that, the ki-based head-on system was highly vulnerable.

In 1.2, you have the ability to swoop in any one of six directions, all of which are relative to wherever you're aiming. Also, you can swoop with any weapon selected. This creates more interesting fights, since not only are you free to change direction whenever you feel like it, you've also got the ability to use a few more attacks in fights. Also, head-on system is much less vulnerable and frustrating.

Another thing in 1.2 is that walljumping, which takes no ki, can be used to produce very cost effective and sometimes confusing attacks/retreats.

The only thing I really enjoyed about 1.1 as opposed to 1.2 was teleport comboing. And using Trunks' sword.

 

[RavenTrunks]

People are afraid of CHANGE.... Simple as that, from what i heard alpha didnt have melee, correct? well i would garantee if they released the current melee system now for 1.0 and 1.1 Everyone would be happy. and if they were to make 1.2's melee like 1.1 THIS whole, "you ****ed up ESF" thing would still be here.

Grow up and accept changes.

 

[Carnage the 1]

Heh, that's the problem, I won't. The funny thing is that I'm far from being the only one who agrees that ESF has been going downhill since 1.2

SOME people are afraid of change, I'm not, as long as it's in the right direction. Changing simple melee wasn't, it sucks now - simple as that. The teleport delay was just as horrible.

There's a simple solution to all of this:

- change back the simple melee to 1.1 (knockbacks, no combo limit etc)
- remove the tele delay

Why is this such a problem? Advanced melee doesn't change does it? You can still do whatever you want with advanced melee but you now have a lot less restrictions than before. Tell me why you don't like this or why you think this is a bad idea because I'd really to know :/

 

[Skiwan]

because its about comprimise... see not everyone likes it like you do, people have their own opinions, therefore its much more intellegant to try to satisfy everyone, by comprimising

 

[Eon]

Okay, I'll leave this open for people to make suggestions on how to improve the mod. Any more simple posts like "1.2 sucks/rocks" or "1.1 was better/worse" and flaming of any users will get this thread closed.

Keep it peaceful, and make suggestions. Not rants. Alrighty?

 

[Rocky]

As David said, going back to 1.0 style will make you happy but all the new players who have only started since 1.2 (myself included) will proceed to get owned as they're not used to the style. You may not be the only one who wants 1.0 style back but we're not the only ones who like it as it is. Fair and balanced to ALL players. Which, in the long run is better than being one sided.

 

[Carnage the 1]

Am I not compromising? I never said that advanced melee should be taken out, have I? If you want something that everyone can learn, point it at advanced melee but by all means leave simple melee alone.

I don't think that people realise what a solid concept it was. It never really had a limit besides your own ability and maybe that's where the problem is. I understand that not everyone has time to play every day but can't we then have a server side option to let us choose. If one group wants the old simple melee and others like it the way it is, why not let US choose? There are enough servers that will divide the option so that everyone is happy. Besides, you can see it as a small test as well, if this type of server has more success than the other one doesn't that point out what most of us are looking for?

 

[Rocky]

But if the simple melee pro's from 1.0 are given the ability to resume their dominance in the game then there is no such thing as adv. melee. You can't do adv. melee if the person is holding right click. Which effectively cuts out any chance of fair play that the noob has. (assuming he is a noob and not just a recent player.) The old way of ESF is dead. Adv. melee and reduced effective simple melee is the future of ESF. Unfortunate for you 1.0 veterans but its true. I hear simple melee is being tweaked anyway, maybe you'll be lucky.

 

[Skiwan]

you think it was a solid concept because you used to be the man at it.

"why not let US choose?" thats what im saying, personaly and other will agree, i dont want the simple melee back like it was in 1.0/1.1, so you have to work on a solution that everyone can agree on.

its funny what you say, because today i hosted a game simple melee only cvar, i was waiting for an hour, in that time i got 2 players in there, and both quit when they found out there was no advanced melee and the knockback was huge.

What are you so afraid of with adapting? is it possible that there is an idea even better than to change it back to 1.1/1.0? one that will satisfy everyone.... there is an answer but you dont have it, neither do i, because its all down to opinion. You arent right, you only have your opinion.

I dont want 1.0/1.1 melee put back in because i like to have control of my character, ya know? If im getting killed i wanna defend myself. im sorry if that goes right over your head, but thats the only problem with 1.1 melee >_> and the head ons.....

You arent listening, therefore there is no comprimise.... the whole title of this thread is pretty ironic, considering what you are asking

 

[Skiwan]

i agree with the teleport delay... its kinda stupid but its not fair when you get scripters messing things up for everyone.

I play games for fun. Its fun fighting good oponents.

edit: erm... carnage posted one before me, but i think he deleted it >_< didnt mean to double post