Blockcounter balancing idea, NOW WITH VOTING!

[Abe Froman]

This is a repost of my earlier idea, but with voting. Mods feel free to delete the last one...

Blocking and counter is unbalanced. Period. Example; this guy called VoodooCowboy was meleeing me all around the map. I got a few in, but he was much better. One time, he was chargin ki, and I was almost on top of him with a swoop. I swear when I was in melee distance, he went right from charging to block to counter.

Now that is skill, I will give him that. You need fast reflexes to pull that off. But the fact he can do that kind of irked me. So he offered to teach me how to avoid counters. He had me block, then he would try to melee me. Guess what? I countered him every single time. And it was easy.

He was trying to teleport away after he meleed me, which is what I do when I get blocked. But sometimes, for some reason, it does not work. And even when it does, All that happens is he loses 2 health, a small bit of ki, and we are back to square one, him blocking until my teleporting away doesn't work out.

This current block\counter system takes all the skill out of the melee system. Someone who has never played before can out melee all but the extremely skilled(those who can tele behind, turn, then swoop b4 the guy turns around). And as proof, go into any server and count the block spammers, or the guys who start block spamming when they see you are better than them. You will count most likely at least half.

You can't really blame them though. Block\countering is so easy it's the one thing that beginners can latch on to that saves them from learning how to melee for real. By now we have guys that are so good at melee, I can't even hope to be as good as them, so i can imagne what the newbs must feel like when they first start playing, so the temptaion of block spam is bolstered by sheer desparation.

So what is the point of this long winded analysis? I have a (hopefully) good idea on how to balance it. Add knockback even when melee is blocked.

Here's the plan; say Mr. Goku Pants is block spamming, and Mr. Vegeta Pants is swooping. VP hits GP and GP blocks it. GP gets knocked back 1/4 distance that an unblocked melee does, but can retain his block for the entire duration. Because Mr. GP is being knocked back, he only has a BRIEF period of time to retaliate with a counter, and if he tries and misses, his guard is down and Mr. VP can tele\swoop and "put the biff in", as the Crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin would say. This would force block spammers to:

A) Get better at REAL melee
or
B) Aquire REAL skill in countering.

And to balance THAT idea, make it so that if you are moving back from being hit while blocking, you cannot be knocked further back. This would make it so that you wouldn't be machine gun meleed across the map, AND if they DID try to melee you, you can counter more easily.

When I see two skilled players meleeing, it's a beautiful thing. they are teleporting around, swooping, charging, it's actually interesting. When I see a skilled player and a block spammer going at it, it's boring, frustrating, and the skilled guy ends up leaving the server, to the jeers of "N3Wb LOLZ!!!111!" from sed block spammer. I would much rather have my ass handed to me from a guy with skills than from some 10 year old (no offense to 10 year olds who can melee for real) who can't bother himself with actually getting good at the game.

This idea would probably have to be tweaked, so feel free to add your own opinions.

And remember; flame unto others as you would have them flame unto you.

*whips out fire extinguisher*

 

[Xenogias]

I suggested a block meter.
When block meter drains the Characters block breaks leaving them
off-guard for a next attack. But people never agreed with the idea.
Its best for ESF I say. And more true to the show as well. No one
loses health in DBZ and die for blocking too much (Unless the enemy succeeded in throwing power-block struggle).

Its rediculous. Anyway.
The idea will probably get rejected as well but it does sound good too.

What I do is block + Counter back at my enemies just to prove to
them there is no skill in standing still and waiting for your enemy to
attack. Unfortunately for me I dont have the advantages of those
with low ping so I cant attack before they get a chance to teleport
so I wait for them to run out of ki. And yeah Im one of those all
out offensive + evasive guys. One reason why I like to play nightshades
more than I do with Hsu :\

 

[V']

Iv said this once and Ill say it again.People who use block+counter spam technique should be affected in one of two ways:
A) Make there movement slower like in cs when you get shot you move a tad bit slower.
B) Or get pushed back a little so that block person A can't hit meele person B with block and counter without timing.

 

[!Black~Death!]

off topic: hey v' ive seen u in esf b4 ive played with u alot

on topic: and i agree with v'

 

[Saiyaman156]

this is a good idea, and i support it, it may need a few tweaks though so we don't have a new gen of melee/block spammers

hey black death, where'd you get all of those piccolo moving images?

 

[Abe Froman]

Originally posted by Saiyaman156
this is a good idea, and i support it, it may need a few tweaks though so we don't have a new gen of melee/block spammers

hey black death, where'd you get all of those piccolo moving images?

Thanks for supporting it, but what tweaks does it need?

 

[Saiyaman156]

the guy that is getting knocked back should lose some health, maybe 1/4 of what you would lose from being meleed

just so someone just doesn't stay blocking all the time

 

[Abe Froman]

Originally posted by Saiyaman156
the guy that is getting knocked back should lose some health, maybe 1/4 of what you would lose from being meleed

just so someone just doesn't stay blocking all the time

Well yeah, that goes without saying

I was thinking instead of losing health, you lose ki. The whole point of blocking is to preserve health, and I would much rather lose 5 health than a chunk of ki.

 

[Marvey-Mar]

you should be able to tell when someone is meleing you like a sensor or something but it would kick in at the last minute before you would get struck to make it fair for the melee attker.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

Sounds good to me. Anything to make it harder to do. The only issue I have with it is that you still have a little time to counter. It's all too easy for me to counter almost instantaniously as is, and that wouldn't stop me or most of the master block "whores" out there. Perhaps it should just disable your ability to unblock for about half a second, like a stun. That way your opponent will actually have time to teleport out of the way, and you'd still have time to teleport out of the way of his next swoop.

 

[Abe Froman]

No, countering, for all its lameness now, belongs in esf. Most of the people that counter that fast are even better at real melee anyway. I think having a SMALL window for countering is good, so small that if you have a ping above 130, no countering for you.

 

[Abe Froman]

I also can't believe out of the 102 views this post has, only 11 people have voted......lazy bastages.

 

[imported_mysticssjgoku4]

i like the idea of the block meter.
thats the first idea i came up for block spammers.

you can only block so much untill the meter bar goes to the top
and they have to wait for it to go back down half way before they can use it again.

 

[lostsoul]

i rekon let the esf team decide wat to do.

 

[NightSage]

The block meter thing sounds good, its kind of like stamina so if you try to over do it when it comes to blocking it won't work. Only other way around the block spamming is being able to grab and throw your foe, since attaching models and it working in multiplayer is very hard if not impossible I vote for the block meter thing. Though I think esf needs a better melee system anyway, since the current is pretty much like bfp's melee system but with targeting (which you shouldn't be able to do from a far IMO)

 

[V']

I dislike the whole block meter thing.There's enough meters in the game I dont want to have to worry about this one either.I think abe is on the right track at what should happen to all the block spammers.

 

[Brim]

Agreed, block meters don't wet my whistle for some reason...they wouldn't really help the block/counter that much seeing as how it takes 3 or so melees for it to come down...abe's idea is really quite good, im still pondering on whether or not you should have time to counter but i think that maybe a small window wouldnt hurt...it would be yet another skill to master (like ive mastered anything) and i also like the idea of blocking taking away ki...except for a bs...someone once said that blocking in a bs is different than blocking in melee so that wouldn't be a problem...unless they were wrong...

 

[Abe Froman]

The goal of my system is to have a counter for everything, but to give a slight advantage to the agressor. DBZ is not about static beam wars(although they do occur occationally), it's about fast-paced MOSTLY melee action.

BTW, bump

 

[keiryn]

Maybe instead of placing more meters on the screen, if someone is constantly blocking your attacks, either a) get better at melee, or b) stop using melee and blow him up.

Granted this idea isn't as complicated as a block meter, and wouldn't bother the esf coders as much but perhaps you guys should give it some thought?

Seriously, if I throw a destructo disc at someone and he dodges. I don't call him a "dodge whore", then come to forum and suggest a "dodge meter" so "dodge whores" can't move when I throw a disc at them.

I change my attack, and either a) melee them or b) blast them.

Uh oh, i disagree with post... i wonder what type of "whore" I am now.. A "disagree whore", a "against-the-block-meter whore". :S

"Every guy has had a 'wet dream' once in his life time, but for the love of god just change the sheets don't write a freaking song about it."
-Ed the Sock referring to O-Town's Liquid Dream music video.

Thought the previous quote was appropriate for this thread.

 

[Abe Froman]

So what you are saying Keiryn is throw a beam at him. If I was block whoring, all I would do is wait for hit to throw the beam, teleport to the side twice, swoop and melee him. Easy. Or block the beam because winning a block struggle as the blocker is all too easy, and the beam thrower ALWAYS takes a huge ki hit, while the blocker loses maybe a quarter. Or, if it is a generic beam, I charge a named beam to low power, it will blow right through his weaker beam....

What I am saying is there is no effective counter to blocking. You need EXTREME skill, low ping, and even a bit of luck to do anything consistent to a block spammer. The imbalance is what I have issues with.

It's not like I haven't tested this either; my roomate plays ESF too, is better than me now, and I can still block spam him into the ground. There is nothing he does that I can't counter when I am blocking, and I should NOT be able to do that. We have the same ping and just about the same skill level, but because I used the bs against him, we finished out a full 30 min with me at 34 and 3. That is awful and needs to be fixed.