Beam melee idea

[Sonic the Vampire]

Kakaroto, your personal opinions on the matter are noted, but this has already been decided. Just because people haven't hit you and your opponent with a kame right after advanced melee two or three times doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We're talking about a second and a half after you start recovering from being knocked back after advanced melee ends. That's only enough time to tele once or maybe twice, not enough to destroy the entire server. If you can't tell by the way advanced melee works now the focus of the game isn't kame vs. server, it's player vs. player. Beams shouldn't work on opponents who cannot defend themselves unless they have put themselves in that position. Right now advanced melee puts them in that position whether they want to be or not.

As KuBaN said, we know English, you don't have to reitterate that you play ESF. We know you play ESF, thing is, other people play it to, and they have problems with this, including but not limited to some of the testers and dev team members.

 

[Lord Kakaroto]

A lot of people after finishing advanced melee intend on continuing the fight, and rush after them. They aren't thinking, "Oh, I'd better watch my back for the next cheap-ass with a fully charged beam just waiting to take a cheap-shot," they're focusing on the target they just pummeled. Since you can't change people's cheap strategies, there needs to be some workaround to nullify it. Even if it's half a second of invincibility after the melee ends.

No need to reiterate yourself, the lot of us can read English.

No there doesnt need to be a work around to nullify someones cheap strategy. Let me point out that it is your opinion that it is a cheap strategy. You ever think that the guy getting ready to shoot that beam at you is also open to someone hitting him with a beam in the back while he is charging, or while he is shooting, or getting meleed in the back? Should he be invulnerable so he doesnt get hit by a "cheap-shot"?

There apparently is a reason for me to reiterate (im not reiterating myself, it is just reiterating) because people arent reading my posts. If you were reading my posts, and you werent trying to rail-road a change thru esf because you got mad from dying because all you were doing was advance meleeing (because its a new thing you want to use) and people took advantage of that fact, your opinion would change.

Don't any of you understand that staying still in esf for 10 seconds or more so you can pick apart a single target that you stunned is going to, and should, leave you vulnerable.

What you are trying to do is eliminate a draw back of using advanced melee so you can use it all the time. Why would someone ever use simple melee if using advanced melee gave you invulnerability time so you can recharge, and move?

Im trying my very best to explain this concept to you all, but it isnt working, its like talking to a brick wall.

I understand that you dont like to get beamed after a dual with someone. No one likes getting killed out of no where, in fact, no one likes getting killed.
Instead of getting mad and thinking about how people are cheap and complaining about how the game is played, why dont you try to work with what is available to you to become the most lethal fighter in ESF.

Here are some problems with the invulnerability system:

If the attacker and defender are invulnerable. It will slow down the game more and ruin the advantage of whoever has been concerving and utilizing there ki better. Team mates wont be able to save you from that ssj because he will be invulnerable, and as soon as he and you arent invulnerable anymore he will slam into you, initiating another dual that you will lose in. After throwing your opponent into a wall or the ground you wont be able to hit him with a ki attack or blob. You wont be able to wall jump to hit your opponent after he knocks you into a wall.

 

[KuBaN]

No there doesnt need to be a work around to nullify someones cheap strategy. Let me point out that it is your opinion that it is a cheap strategy. You ever think that the guy getting ready to shoot that beam at you is also open to someone hitting him with a beam in the back while he is charging, or while he is shooting, or getting meleed in the back? Should he be invulnerable so he doesnt get hit by a "cheap-shot"?

He can move, or aim his beam at the opponent, while we, are locked in battle, thrown back, and must reorient, and check every possible angle.

There apparently is a reason for me to reiterate (im not reiterating myself, it is just reiterating) because people arent reading my posts. If you were reading my posts, and you werent trying to rail-road a change thru esf because you got mad from dying because all you were doing was advance meleeing (because its a new thing you want to use) and people took advantage of that fact, your opinion would change.

No, I'm reading it, and I'm not trying to rail-road a change through ESF because I got mad from dying because all I was doing was advance meleeing and people to advantage of that fact.
--I know full well I can't "rail-road" a damned thing unless the ESF team agrees, I'm just stating my opinion, as you are, but mine is not spoken with an insulting tone (ie: reiterating the same sentence as though the reader were an idiot).
--Advanced Melee was not the only thing I was doing, and how you claim to know otherwise I'm unsure since I haven't stated it and haven't seen you in any game I've played. You know what happens when you assume :laff:. I see this happening

What you are trying to do is eliminate a draw back of using advanced melee so you can use it all the time. Why would someone ever use simple melee if using advanced melee gave you invulnerability time so you can recharge, and move?

.75 seconds is not enough time to recharge, and why would you recharge after a melee battle when there are people w/ charged ki beams waiting.

Im trying my very best to explain this concept to you all, but it isnt working, its like talking to a brick wall.

Perhaps we've just dismissed your points as valid because you started with the demeaning "Dahuur, dars a guuyyy.. wooo imma gooonna use advanced melee, whhoooo anotherrr guuyyy... immma goonnna ussse adddvannceed meelllleeeeeeeee....." and the constant "You know what?"'s

Here are some problems with the invulnerability system:

After throwing your opponent into a wall or the ground you wont be able to hit him with a ki attack or blob.

Valid point there, so maybe just the invincibility after Adv. Melee, when neither player wins, and not after throwing, or winning an adv. melee?

 

[Lord Kakaroto]

KuBaN try not to be so belligerent. None of my comments were meant to be derogitory. You are taking what I said out of context and twisting there meaning to defamate my character. My Dahuur statement was meant to be funny and to emphasize that it is dumb to rely on one combat technique.

 

[Zer05092]

lord kak is right that would be very stupied i mean if someone beams u deal with it and if u cant thats your problem

 

[Lord Kakaroto]

lol I rack up scores of 30 and 2 all the time. It just means im discouraged from having a really good involved melee battle with someone. Short combos and beams are the order of the day instead of long combos with counterattacks etc. Personally, id rather have a good duel then just rack up as many kills as possible.

Obviously Cheeto, your not having that much of a problem with getting hit by beams after a melee battle with someone.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

There are already drawbacks to using advanced melee, Kakaroto. Prepunches use ki, your opponent has the opportunity to hit you back and possibly even smash you out of an advanced melee round you initially started, and it's risky to go up against someone significantly better than you are. It shouldn't be an option to sit still with a beam charged and kill one or both players before they can move, and it wont be after the patch (although you can always just fire a second later with less chance of success). I get killed by beams coming out of advanced melee and I still get a high number of kills, so that defeats the point you were trying to make with Cheeto. Just because not everybody does it doesn't mean it should be left in the game as a hole for people who want free kill steals to abuse.

The general consensus is that players that haven't done anything tactically incorrect should be given the chance to defend themselves from third parties. If people waited to fire their beams until after those players had recovered it would be fair game, but people don't do that, and so they don't allow those players to defend themselves. To say it is in place to prevent advanced melee from being overused doesn't justify the fact that it's a window of exploitation that the team didn't plan for ahead of time.

If you don't want your opponent to use advanced melee on you over and over use simple melee and don't retaliate when he gets you with advanced.

And to clarify, this would only effect those coming out of advanced melee still able to stand upright. If you've been smashed out of it that's a different story. If you were thrown you're still vulnarable. And as much as you say we aren't reading your posts you should read ours. I said you wouldn't have enough time to recharge already.

 

[KuBaN]

KuBaN try not to be so belligerent. None of my comments were meant to be derogitory. You are taking what I said out of context and twisting there meaning to defamate my character. My Dahuur statement was meant to be funny and to emphasize that it is dumb to rely on one combat technique.

My belligerence is only in reprisal to what I interpretted as yours. Defamating is most definitely not a word, but I don't give a damn about ruining your reputation, since I'm not "out to get you". To me it seemed as though you were mocking the players, if you weren't I retract my statement (though I don't see how the "You Know What?"'s could be anything but downtalking), but you are assuming that we are only sticking to one combat technique, when whether or not we do has no effect on the guy behind us waiting to take a shot from the back.

Nonetheless, in my opinion, something should be done about this.

 

[Scorcher2k]

If your low on life after a melee battle, than ya your going to die from a low powered blast. If you get thrown out of melee battle and someone detonates a fully powered final flash on you than that means the guy started glowing while you were in the battle. I totally agree with kak that you need to be aware of your surroundings. It was the same way in 1.1 with getting hit by melee. You were vulnerable for what seemed like forever compared to 1.2 and you often got beam spammed while in the middle of a fight. The way to remedy this: Kill or throw the beam spammer away before dealing with the other person. You have to recognize your threats first. To take this out of the game is to butcher it of some of its strategy. If you get hit by a beam after a melee struggle retaliate. Don't get in another drawn out combo/countercombo and move around with simple melee and generic beams and balls.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

It's different in advanced melee. As things stand right now, even if you were both the most perceptive and the fastest human in existence you would still get totaled by a Kame if it was detonated after an advanced melee round while you are recovering. The point of the temporary invulnarability time isn't to give you enough time to sit there and take a beam to the face, just to allow you to either block or teleport a couple of times if you see a beam coming. If you don't see a beam coming you're still screwed just like you were before.

 

[Pain]

i agree so far that while you are stationary, it is fine to be invulnerable... IE: melee struggle, throw. but when you are mobile and able to defend yourself, there is no reason for this. while in a melee struggle, throw, you can move the camera around to assess the danger around you. if you see someone charging a beam that you think might be coming your way, you have many options. if you are not yet engages in a struggle you may throw your opponent at them. if you are in a struggle you can complete it and tele out of danger, or assault the beamer as a friendly warning to stay out of your fights. or you may cut off the struggle prematurely and pick off the beamer before his beam reaches completion.

now i dont know how the invulerability thing will work after the melee struggle, but in any of the older versions, you were always vulerable to be nailed while in the middle of a fight. and if you did what happend? you would go after the spammer that ruined it. thats how it works now... if someone gets in the way, you respawn and hunt them down.

people interupt fights all the time even if not using beams. does that mean we should impliment some sort of, "you can only fight this person untill one of you dies, and no one else can harm you untill then?" type of deal? it just sounds rediculous to me...

just to throw in some personal experiance of mine with this... if i see someone charging a beam at me, i dont get right back into a fight with the guy im currently attacking. i smack the beamer around a bit with simple melee and then go back to my original opponent. it seems to work very well for me. like lord kak said, you need to develop strategies around it and now just whine about how its unfair.

*edit*
just another thing i thought of, this kind of seems to me like making beams obsolete... i mean... when will you be able to beam an opponent? if they are invulerable for a short amount of time right after a fight or a throw, how will beams be incorperated into fights? i mean.. i throw in a generic ball whenever possible to try and shave some more HP off of my opponent. hell.. lets just take beams out of the game alltogether if they can only be used on stationary imobile targets.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

i agree so far that while you are stationary, it is fine to be invulnerable... IE: melee struggle, throw. but when you are mobile and able to defend yourself, there is no reason for this. while in a melee struggle, throw, you can move the camera around to assess the danger around you. if you see someone charging a beam that you think might be coming your way, you have many options. if you are not yet engages in a struggle you may throw your opponent at them. if you are in a struggle you can complete it and tele out of danger, or assault the beamer as a friendly warning to stay out of your fights. or you may cut off the struggle prematurely and pick off the beamer before his beam reaches completion.

No, you can't. As things are you're vulnarable while recovering so you don't get the chance to tele away, whether you want to or not. You can't just cut melee struggles prematurely. Ending combos early is usually what they want because they don't have to be vulnarable as long.

now i dont know how the invulerability thing will work after the melee struggle, but in any of the older versions, you were always vulerable to be nailed while in the middle of a fight. and if you did what happend? you would go after the spammer that ruined it. thats how it works now... if someone gets in the way, you respawn and hunt them down.

If it happens over and over and it cannot be avoided no matter how fast you are it becomes frustrating and just not fun to play.

people interupt fights all the time even if not using beams. does that mean we should impliment some sort of, "you can only fight this person untill one of you dies, and no one else can harm you untill then?" type of deal? it just sounds rediculous to me...

I never said you'd be invulnarable until your opponent killed you. Reread the thread.

just to throw in some personal experiance of mine with this... if i see someone charging a beam at me, i dont get right back into a fight with the guy im currently attacking. i smack the beamer around a bit with simple melee and then go back to my original opponent. it seems to work very well for me. like lord kak said, you need to develop strategies around it and now just whine about how its unfair.

*edit*
just another thing i thought of, this kind of seems to me like making beams obsolete... i mean... when will you be able to beam an opponent? if they are invulerable for a short amount of time right after a fight or a throw, how will beams be incorperated into fights? i mean.. i throw in a generic ball whenever possible to try and shave some more HP off of my opponent. hell.. lets just take beams out of the game alltogether if they can only be used on stationary imobile targets.

You'll only be temporarily invulnarable to outside beam attacks, not from the person you just hit. They can still gen beam or gen ball or ki blast you in that .8 or whatever fraction of a second you're invulnarable to enemy beams after recovery.



Why does this keep getting a response like "I don't want opponents to be invulnarable to my beams forever and ever" ? We're talking about less than a second after you can move again. Less than a single second.

 

[Pain]

I never said you'd be invulnarable until your opponent killed you. Reread the thread.

i never said you said that, it was a rhetorical question of a blown out of proportion situation

You'll only be temporarily invulnarable to outside beam attacks, not from the person you just hit. They can still gen beam or gen ball or ki blast you in that .8 or whatever fraction of a second you're invulnarable to enemy beams after recovery.



Why does this keep getting a response like "I don't want opponents to be invulnarable to my beams forever and ever" ? We're talking about less than a second after you can move again. Less than a single second.

that makes more sense to me, thats all ya had to say. and if youve said it before, then im sorry i missed it. i was under the impression there would be around 2 or 3 seconds for some reason :shocked:

 

[K-Dash]

well....if its less than a sec....then wats the point of having it at all? i mean to recover it takes atleast a sec and not to mention anyone can just shoot the beam and explode it after a sec when the guy isnt invulnerable anymore.

 

[KuBaN]

but at least you will have that time to move/tele out of the way, whereas now you don't have the time to do anything.

pulling out of this one

 

[Lord Kakaroto]

Anyone realize that the mode you are playing 1.2 in is different than the mode you were playing 1.1 in? Thats right, all the servers are running Free for All, not TeamPlay.

The differences in gameplay are significant. In teamplay you often have guys watching your back (whether they mean to or not, they want to attack something, maybe that guy charging a beam to shoot you with). In Free for All, you often have to deal with multiple opponents, and multiple attack techniques (beams, melee)

Anyone that played 1.0 or 1.1 knows that teamplay was much more popular than Free for All. Not too many people have very much experience with Free For All or know how to play it. Combine that with a new combat system, and people think that the new system is easily exploited, not realizing that the real differences are between the teamplay and free for all mode.

Thus began the biggest quest in ESF, the quest, for immortality.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

So are you saying we should ignore free for all? C'mon man, even in teamplay people don't want their team mates stealing kills from them with beams they didn't ask to get fired. People are *****ing and moaning about interupting fights right now. This will answer a few prayers for them. Like I said, we'll work it out to something like a little under a second *after* you can move again. Not enough time to recharge. Not enough time to fire a beam. Enough time to attack your opponent again? Sure, unless you tele away or swoop to the side, but that's it.

Stop comparing 1.0 and 1.1 Kak, we aren't going back to 1.0 or 1.1 and the systems are totally different. The focus in 1.2 is mano a mano combat, not widespread "help a friend" style play. People are trying to get the highest score on the scoreboard, not help their friends get it.

Guys it isn't going to make the huge different people seem to think it will make. What it means is people are going to have to wait to fire their beams until after the people using melee can see it. That doesn't mean they can't kill them with a beam it just means the people they are shooting at have time to fall / tele / wall jump. Don't hold me to that though, they may tweak it, but it wont be long enough to freak out over.

 

[Cheeto101]

Obviously Cheeto, your not having that much of a problem with getting hit by beams after a melee battle with someone.

LoL how do you think i get my kills . Its an exploit that even i use from time to time and i dont think i should be able to.

Edit: And I see about half and half free for all and Team servers on steam.

Why are we even arguing about this?? Its been decided, we'll try it out after the next patch and see how it goes.

I dunno though sonic on the whole mano a mano thing though for team play....with the new melee sys theres alot of fun to be had with 2 on 1 combat....I usually am on the recieving end of it, and if theyre not just throwing me and beaming me, its a hella lotta fun. The odd beam isnt bad, but right after a struggle/duel, when im helpless is. But 2 on 1 melee is seriously rad. I love it

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

I'm going to close this until we finalize the invulnarability times and then reopen it for questions. I don't see why there would be such strong criticism over like a second of invulnarability, but if you can think up some new arguments you can post them after I reopen this. For now it's just back and forth spam, and the pros are beating the cons. This is something more than a few people want.

Closed until finalized.