Auto melee nice @ 1 side but...

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Now it relies on Ki, Powerlevel and the skill of the person.

In 1.2, its auto,.....get my point?

This would make melee boring to c urself swoop auto hit for 1-8 times (whatever how much) charge taking time again, then c a combo wich is nice to look @ maybe 3-4 times then it will get to work on your nerves to charge every single time.

I played esf since alpha and i must say dont make this into a boring game, dont make it auto, let US play the game, dont let the game play itself.
 
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People arent just gonna stand there and let you autopunch them, there gonna try blocking and dodging arent they :p

Beta 1.1 : swoop (with an easy lock on) --> hit --> get knocked flying --> ow
Beta 1.2 : swoop (with no lock on!) --> auto punch --> throw/combo --> OW

I wish people would stop complaining about the new melee.
Just because people arent getting knocked flying every 2 secs, doesnt make it less fun.
Charging for melee will get boring? does charging for beams get boring? :p

1.2 will be about skills, don't diss it.

Person below my post : not really, you can then just swoop at the person and finish them off with auto punching if you prefer.
And the whole idea of taking targeting off is to make melee more fair.
 
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u right!!!
for my opinion the ESF team shuold do a TARGET like in 1.1
cuz lets say when u swooping to someone u hit him a few hits and then do a combo or throw him,and then the melee is over and u need to do all that again.
instead of attacking him with target.
get my point?
 
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I hope so but i think that a key 4 the autopunching should do the job
 
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No actually it wont be about skills, if u think about it u cant swoop normally and just whack the ****er, no u wil get into that auto punch, personally i dont get exited just by tapping wasd buttons to doge.

Example:
Defender: Owh hes attacking me ah il press wsad when needed.....damn im falling asleep....owh i got hit....ah ic have to press wsad some more.....zzzzzZZZzzz.

Attacker: Il sweep ow wait got to charge hmmm...okaay im done now lets swoop....ahaaa got him now lets watch and do nothing and c if he can dodge my attacks....he he doged one there! OMFG! a comba charge...charge some more and then ah yes charge.

Dont c any skills coming in that picture soz, maybe 1, relying on your speed how to "dodge" a attack, but soz i didnt play this game just to c myself get attacked (or cant control my attacks for that matter) and press wsad or relax and watch. -.-

edit: Melee shouldnt be made "more fair" if u want to get good at a game u will have 2 play it alot to get good (or ur just a natural).

Example for diablo 2 which isnt noob friendly @ all, but millions of ppl played that game BECAUSE they wanted to get good and kick some but with there uber items they fought so long for.

Same should be here, that noobs need to learn how to play and play good another example why i do not like automation.
 
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melee is about skill now what are u talking about


and i mean come on compared to old melee EVERYTHING takes skill does anyone honistly think it takes skill to hit swoop and hold a buttion down??

thats not skill thats just lameness
 
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so your saying that those of us that win with melee more often than not are just lucky? because if what your saying is true, and 'old' melee takes no skill than noobs would actualy be putting up a fight, which they arent.

essentially what your telling us is that, your lowering the bar of standards because the majority of people SUCK at melee as it is right now. they suck because they dont take the time to learn how it works, and come up with their own techniques. and if thats not it than they are either extremly young and dont understand or just incredibly stupid.
 
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Wow, you're only the 20th person too ignorant to realize that taking out the targeting system doesn't make the game any easier. If anything it makes it harder, you can keep track of your opponent with the target, now, you can't.
Auto-punching is the same thing as the current melee attack, just that it takes off less damage, and doesn't send them flying. It sets them up for your combo/throw. Tell me what is so much more skillfull about swooping and holding a button than the new system... Wait, i can answer that, NOTHING.
 
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and your just another person too ignorant to realize that AUTOMATIC punching and a DDR style of melee is not hard at all.

in the current system, if your fighting someone with half a brain you have to out manuver them. and if you want to inflict any heavy damage you have to WORK for your combos.

tell me whats so much more skillfull about automatically punching a guy and automatically going into a combo/throw mode that is DDR style easy to evade? Wait, i can answer that, NOTHING.

the entire melee process is initiated when you get close, the target is not needed. when you finish your combos/throw a guy you can see where they go... and since this melee isnt based on swooping around the opponent, keeping track isnt going to be so hard now will it. WOW all of this automatic stuff and DDR is really going to need a lot of skill. at least you had to swoop around and press a button to hit a guy in this version. 1.2 WOW im gona run into you and start punching you, then ill do a DDR jig and beat you to a pulp!!

yes yes i know work in progress. this is just based on what info is released at the moment.
 
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u sure seem to know exactly how it plays for NOT EVEN KNOWING THE FULL SYSTEM

for never even playing with the new melee how can u actualy comment on how much skill is required?
 
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im basing my argument on what has been released thus far, so unless the team has been lying to us..... yes i can comment on how much skill is required. :rolleyes:
 
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and the team hasnt released everything


and concidering im basing my argument on actualy playing the game its kind of hard to argue with it :rolleyes:
 
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im not in a position to play the game, your opinion on what is good and what is not may differ from mine. so from whatever information is available to me i draw my own conclusion and argue it :p

besides its not like youve said anything about 1.2. the only thing you have said is that 1.1 takes no skill and is easier to use......
 
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People STOP *****ING before you know what you are talking about.

"They didn't say melee would be difficult.
Therefore-> Melee will be easy."

That is what we in the philosophy business call an "appeal to ignorance." People haven't played, and because they are interested they are suggestive and gullable. You take advantage of that to fill their head with lies about the melee system before you even play it.

What we do know: 1.) Melee in 1.2 will start off similarly to 1.1 melee, with swooping and trying to catch your opponent off gaurd.
2.) After the initial blows are landed, a sequence of attacks are prepared by the attacker, and meanwhile are defended against by the person on the other end of the offensive. This requires concentration on behalf of both of both of the players, though mostly the defender, who is unsure of what is coming next down the line of attacks.
3.) After the initial charging takes place the automated combat animation sequence will begin, during which time the defender may charge his own counter attacks, and the attacker must defend.
4.) I believe after *that* charging period has ended the original attacker gets one more brief chance to do more damage to his opponent.

This is all a very frantic sequence of trying to hit proper attack combos and trying to counter your opponents' keystrokes in a limited window of time after he plugs them in.

What we don't know: 1.) Melee will be slow in 1.2 . Right now the only evidence anyone has to support this claim is a video of 1.2's melee as a work in progress. As it is not a finished product it is not designed to give us any idea of what the default variables are going to be set to. It is only a demonstration of what the system as it is up to this point is capable of.
2.) The attacker is only required to punch random directions and use random charges to achieve his goal. Just because the team hasn't addressed advanced button combonations will not be added into the finished version (aka a series of timed specific-directional charges that unleash a more powerful barrage of attacks onto your opponent than a series of random key strokes.) PCJoe has already aluded multiple times to the future invention of such a system and people seem to be missing it every time he posts about it. This kind of a system would not be incredibly scripter friendly (due to the time involved in holding primary fire to charge each attack as well as alternate cvar settings on alternate servers) and would be quite difficult to master without practice. They would also make the defender's job significantly more difficult if they were pulled off correctly by design.

Don't just assume 1.2 is going to be horrible because it sounds cool to go against the grain and be contreversial. Stop and think about what you're trying to say before you start mouthing off about how the finished product is going to be everything you hoped it wasn't (I am talking to those individuals of whom apply to the aforementioned statement). Think about a realistic argument before you start complaining about things. "Well they didn't tell us so we are free to speculate" well speculation doesn't prove a damn thing to us, so stop complaining about what you think might be the case. The team knows what really *is* going to happen and so it doesn't really phase them to hear that your own version of their melee system doesn't impress you.

/End of rant.
 
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so tell me.... if we are not supposed to speculate
1) why has the team released any info at all?
2) why havent all the 1.2 threads based on what has been released been closed by now?

btw im still partial to Nightshades idea:
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IMO i think old melee and new should get mixed up. But leave the swoop and locking alone. Just have this new system in replace of the howling head ons. That way to get off a power hit like we doing now it would take skill.
-----

catch your opponent from the side and he gets launched.
go for a head on and both of you will be alert, and then the 1.2 system comes in with the auto stuff and the combo stuff and the throwing stuff.

with this everyone wins!
 
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Because when the video and information was released, a melee thread about it was too.
Why do people wanna keep the lock and swoop?
1) it makes the game too easy.
2) with it gone you can get around using swoop when you like.
3) makes fighting 1 vs 2 better
 
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Ive seen all your posts, but me opnion still remains.

Nothing should be automated in a game, it takes away the very essence of playing a game.

I didnt say i dont like the combos, nor i said i dont like the punches/kick or throw or melee struggle.

I only said i DONT like it to be auto, why need (like dmz) do a combo on your keyboard to get a nice melee combo that would take precise timing anc charging and that would take SKILL.

Same goes for blocking btw :).

Making stuff auto makes a game boring, some of u think wow cool now, but if this would be the final version of melee (that it would be auto in 1.2) u would get bored really soon.

Only thing i like in 1.2 is that u dont get hit then fly 100000000 meters away which was utter bs (and we all know that it was utter bs to fly 1000000 m away from some 1 with 100000 pl less then u)

To keep it short: Get rid of the automation, let us work for it. (and i mean ANY automation.)
 
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*Long **response!*

Pain said:
so tell me.... if we are not supposed to speculate
1) why has the team released any info at all?
2) why havent all the 1.2 threads based on what has been released been closed by now?
So wait... you are using the excuse "They didn't tell us everything, therefore, I can tell them that their ideas aren't any good." That cannot be rationally justified. Actually, let's break it down.


1.) "So tell me, [if we are not supposed to speculate] 1, [why has the team released any information at all?] 2"

Your unwritten conclusion[1] is that you should be allowed to speculate publicly. Your premise is that the team released information [2], and therefore, we should be able to make half-truths based on what little information we have recieved. This is a mistake in logical reasoning which translates roughly into:

"The team gave us some information, therefore, the team will not give us all of the information."

Since you are attacking the melee system now, and not waiting for the team to finish informing the public as to what its final plans are for the melee system, you in turn are assuming that they are not going to release final plans until shortly before the release of 1.2 . This is a mistake in reasoning as well. "They did not tell me, therefore, they will not ever tell me." Appeal to Ignorance fallacy; you don't know, therefore you assume.

If you *do* believe that the team will release additional information before the release of 1.2, and will squelch the majority of suggestive speculation across the forums, then your posts to this point are effectively puposeless and unjustified. As you are arguing that these suggestions have merit, you must surely be following the prior statement I made of "They did not tell me, therefore, they will not ever tell me" as justification of why you should complain about things that have not yet been installed into place, and you are complaining out of fear of what they may sneak into 1.2 before it is finished. The reality of the situation is that they are not going to "sneak" in anything significant or gameplay-altering before the release, you are simply being impatient and stirring up a ruccus to maintain the illusion that you have some kind of power over events which have yet to occur through complaining and starting controversies.

Anyway, I'm off on a tangent. On to statement two.

"So tell me... [If we are not supposed to speculate] 1 [why havent all the 1.2 threads based on what has been released been closed by now?]" 2

Missing conclusion: We are supposed to speculate publicly.

Premise: "Other threads containing suggestions have not been closed."

Argument: "Other threads containing suggestions about 1.2 melee have not been closed, therefore, we are supposed to speculate publicly."

Fallacy: Bandwagon. "Other people are doing it, therefore, we are supposed to do it."

Reason: Those threads haven't been closed because the forums have not yet come to the conclusion that these discussions are causing a significant backlash from the community. That does not mean that they will not be closed, and that does not mean that it was correct for these threads filled with unjustifiable assumptions to have been developed in the first place. In your reasoning is, in fact, that other people are doing something that you know is wrong and therefore you are compelled to follow suit, that is the "Two Wrongs Make a Right" fallacy, which is also a popular misconception. Just because somebody else got away with it doesn't mean that you should abuse the system.



These threads will be closed if this becomes too much of a problem or the team gets fed up with the speculation. I'm not telling you that you *can't* speculate I'm telling you that you have no justification for going off of the handle over parts of the game you have never seen in action and that have not *yet* been fully explained to you. You are jumping to conclusions before you have been presented with all of the evidence and trying to persuade others that the team has done something wrong when you try to make a case against the current melee system (appeal to ignorance).

You don't know how the team is going to respond so you jump ahead and rebuild the melee system for them. That doesn't help anybody with anything. Unless you are coding a new one, or you have beta tested the *finished* version of 1.2 melee, no one will take you seriously, and therefore these threads are filled with flammable spam and cannot be condoned by the moderating staff (or at the very least myself).

I hope that helps you understand why I do not support the creation of these pointless threads.











Now, in response to Final Vegeta: "Nothing should be automated in a game, it takes away the very essence of playing a game." When you fire a kamehameha, should you have to press a complex series of buttons to make sure that each of Goku's fingers are in the right place to fire the kamehameha ahead of him, or would you rather just aim the beam after it launches out of his hands? Firing that kamehameha is automated, just like 1.2's melee animations are automated. You still have to charge up the attacks, and you still have to dodge and defend against the attacks, and the entire time that you are doing battle you either charging attacks or defending against attacks until the time runs out. If you would rather the melee wasn't animated and the characters just stood there that is another issue entirely. You are accusing the melee of being automated when it is only as automated as any other animation in ESF, be it jumping, swooping, firing a beam, or smashing. It's just a pretty visual to watch while you are doing the real fighting charging combos and blocking them.

"I don't like it to be auto, why ned do a combo on your keyboard to get a nice melee combo that would take precise timing and that would take skill" I'm not sure what that means... I *assume* you are telling me that 1.2 melee doesn't require you to use your keyboard and precise timing and charging, which is incorrect, because that is the very essence behind 1.2's melee system. You are trying to charge up either confusing combonations that are hard for your opponent to follow, or power combos, which have yet to be introduced to the community (as they have not been coded yet), which are more difficult to defend against and cause more damage than simply mashing buttons.

"Making stuff auto makes a game boring" Again remember that nothing in 1.2's melee is automated except for the pretty little dance the characters do. You are the one doing all of the punching and blocking, not the computer.

"Get rid of the automation. (And I mean ANY automation)" The only thing about 1.2 that is automated is the close combat *after* punches are thrown and defended against. Swooping is automated isn't it? Charge up a swoop and you just go without assistence. That is an automated process that you just kick into gear, just like melee (although a thousand times less complex than melee). If we took out swooping we'd all be moving frustratingly slow. How about block struggles and power struggles? All you do during those is hold down a button. Sometimes you let go of the button and then press it again later. That is an automated process of power level and ki being number cruched to determined which direction the beam is moving. If we got rid of that the beams would just go through each other.

You assume that because melee is pretty that it isn't going to involve the players. That just frankly is incorrect, and I'm not sure what gave you that impression.
 
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In reply to Pain (Didn't read anything after Pain's post, currently in my VB class, secretly typing on the forums.)

Pain it's one thing to specualte, but you're judgung the system as if it were complete. In any case, even if it were to come out just the way they showed it in the demo, it would be harder than the current melee. Everything would be the same, just that now when you make contact with the guy, you get a choice between a throw or a combo. If you choose throw, then obviously, you throw. If you choose combo, you try a combo, which can be defended and retaliated against. Thus making it harder and more complex than the current system.

Final Vegeta, just becuase you don't have to hold a button now, doesn't mean that the whole game is automated.
 
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Sonic Boyster said:
*Long resonse!*


So wait... you are using the excuse "They didn't tell us everything...... I hope that helps you understand why I do not support the creation of these pointless threads.
so basically your telling me.... to wait for the finished product and voice my opinion when its too late? makes sense..... yes indeedy. this is of course assuming that 1.2 is a huge flop, which it may very well be from the information ive seen so far. yea thats reaaaaal logical. dont complain till its done!

frankly i dont know where you got those huge answers from for 2 simple questions.... they were more along the lines of rhetorical questions.

1) why has the team released any info at all?
answer: they want the publics opinion most likely... thats usualy how it works.
2) why havent all the 1.2 threads based on what has been released been closed by now?
answer: it was said before that i shouldnt be assuming/speculating about 1.2 because it wasnt done yet. i was making an observation that there are many other 1.2 threads just like this one that speculate and disagree with how it LOOKS so far.

nowhere did i say that 1.2 would never get done or that the information would never be released... so i duno where you got that from.
 

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