1.2 Adv. Melee vs. Simple melee (and other things)

[Draylock1]

Yeeeaaaaah. Yeaaaaaaaah. Dray's going to POST! Wow, my name was mentioned how happy I am pwahahah. It's true, 1.2 does suck in my eyes. Lol, Yay for DDR All-stars. ****in hallerious tho, Played 1.0 and 1.1 for like.. 1 year, 4 months? 2 days after 1.2 came out. BAM QUIT HAHAH.

Oh I'm sorry but I must comment on the cheap tactics and bug abuses in 1.1! Yes yes, dray used bugs, and cheap tactics. Guess what.............. Everyone knew about them! TA-DA!!! That means, it balanced it out even more. Crap, I cannot HOW! What can I do!

Funny thing is, people ACTUALLY spent time out of their life to play BOT's. Ok, people, if your game can make the average player go out and play your BOT's you got a good game.. And the funny thing is, ME coded BOT's even clans couldn't take out. Advanced Melee.. You might take.. 2 people. 1.1.... you might take on... 31 OTHER PEOPLE!

Now hold on before Hal flames me on my grammar and my cool comments let me get this straight. If your 1 vs. 31... You have to be pretty badass, right? I mean, beam-spamming like a mother, Teleporting like a mtf, Yes! It all makes sense. 1.0 and 1.1 was sincerely better. Sorry for wasting your time for reading this, sad, but true, 1.2 ruined the game. Props on the coding, Joe, and the rest of the team, unprecedent (hal could you PLEASE SPELL ME OUT THIS WORD I AM SO ****ING LOST) in the gaming industry. I gotta dip, holla?

 

[Skiwan]

you dont need to prepunch a lot to deal damage its about what u do with the time you've got, it also conserves ki by using less prepunches, and the damage is pretty pitiful for a couple of extra prepunches, it depends how u wanna play it, if u got ki to spare, and the guy is really good at advanced melee, u want as long as possible, but if they're not so good it doesnt matter.

 

[Phatslugga]

I'm fully convinced that the people that don't like 1.2 just really don't know how to play it well. I've only fought 3 or 4 people that actually beat me, and it's not any of the people here. If you want to prove me wrong and show me that you can beat me.. then I'll beleive that you have a valid reason for 1.2 sucking, if not, then you just haven't learned the game well enough.

 

[SouLTeRRoR]

Why should we learn/adobt to a system that we don't like dont' want?

 

[Phatslugga]

If you haven't learned it.. how the hell do you come to the conclusion that you don't like it? What the hell? You're just being biased now.

 

[Halorin]

Advanced Melee is what it is, and if you don't like it, use simple melee and limit yourself. That's pretty much what it comes down to. The ESF team is making the game they want, not the game you think it should be. Try and remember that.

Remember, everyone, that your opinion is just that, your opinion. You are a member of a community, and nothing more. No one has to adhere to your opinion, just like they don't have to adhere to mine. If you come up with a good solution to a problem you think needs to be changed, then present in a constructive way. That's what I did, and I got offered a beta testing slot. Not to say that that's going to happen for you, but going that route's a lot better than saying something sucks without giving much of a reason or solution.

If you don't like the arrows, suggest something better or end it all and shut the hell up, because as far as I know, they're here to stay.

 

[Shao]

I think 1.2 is great! But I'm sure the patch will fix the little exploits.

 

[SouLTeRRoR]

If you don't like the arrows, suggest something better or end it all and shut the hell up, because as far as I know, they're here to stay.

Um hello??? we have been giving suggestion's, but your all to busy flaming and bashing us to read what where saying. Combine the old style melee with the hit backs. Leave the speed and tele's that where in 1.1, and leave the advanced melee. That's all where asking. The basic melee in 1.2 is slower, and the tele's r limited.

 

[Halorin]

Um hello??? we have been giving suggestion's, but your all to busy flaming and bashing us to read what where saying. Combine the old style melee with the hit backs. Leave the speed and tele's that where in 1.1, and leave the advanced melee. That's all where asking. The basic melee in 1.2 is slower, limited by tele's.

When I see you come up with a thought out suggestion, I'll acknowledge it. I made a 5 and a half page thesis on what I thought melee should be. Your entire melee concept was said from beginning to end in three sentences. I don't even know what the hell you mean, 'leave the old style melee with the hit backs,' so.. "Hi."

Let me ask you a question: Have you made your own server and played the 'basic' melee version of 1.2 by using the cvar? I doubt you have, but here you are complaining anyway. The majority of the people like 1.2 with advanced melee and all. If you want to play without advanced melee, and have the old style knockback distances, you can with a cvar. That's something that has been mentioned plenty of times. This entire time you've been ranting on about something that's already available in the game.

Go try it, and then come back.

 

[MysticUub]

and...like ive said at least 20 times in this whole big ass arguement...now...im gonna seperate the words so u can follow..what...is...the...point...of...having...the..adv...melee...arrows..system...if...noone..uses..it...because...it..gets...u...nowhere...?

im not trying to be rude or anything...but its like u guys dont even read...u just say the same things over and over..."if u dont like adv. melle use simple" well whats the point of havin adv melee then?..."if they are blocking them all then u must be doing something wrong." nope...u must be fighting ppl that mess up a lot..honestly...if u play with any of the apes...or any of the guys from ip...or anyone thats half decent for that matter...they use simple melee like 95% of the time...beams 4% of the time..and adv melee 1% because theres no point to it...

and if u want a long drawn out melee suggestion give me a min and ill come up with one...

 

[Halorin]

and...like ive said at least 20 times in this whole big ass arguement...now...im gonna seperate the words so u can follow..what...is...the...point...of...having...the..adv...melee...arrows..system...if...noone..uses..it...because...it..gets...u...nowhere...?

im not trying to be rude or anything...but its like u guys dont even read...u just say the same things over and over..."if u dont like adv. melle use simple" well whats the point of havin adv melee then?..."if they are blocking them all then u must be doing something wrong." nope...u must be fighting ppl that mess up a lot..honestly...if u play with any of the apes...or any of the guys from ip...or anyone thats half decent for that matter...they use simple melee like 95% of the time...beams 4% of the time..and adv melee 1% because theres no point to it...

I guess you haven't been reading too much, either. If you feel that advanced melee is pointless, suggest something better. Don't just sit there and gripe about it. If you're going to try to cattle prod the team into action, give them some direction as you do it.

Again I'll state two concepts for you:

1) Advanced melee isn't entirely finished. There will be more combo sequences available that will add more 'confusion factor' to throw off opponents.

2) If you aren't creative enough to make deceptive arrow sequences, then you have no right to complain about advanced melee being easy to block. I can land hits on people with arrows a good deal of the time.

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

Does it matter who made the term up? It makes sense, Head-on Whore. It's not like he created HOWing, he just gave you something to name it, people would be doing it regardless of his term or not. I don't see your point here. He made the term up so.... he's wrong somehow? Are you sure that HOWing and insta-teleports "kicked his ass"? He was much better than me at the game and I could deal with HOWers, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that. Of course, no one could do anything about insta-teleports unless they had cat-like reflexes. Your opponent is all the way across the map, and suddenly he appears in front of you kicking you in the face. From your post, it seems like you're insinuating that the team took these exploits out becuase Halorin was having problems with it? Are you retarded? They were taken out becuase they were exploits, just that simple.

Learn to play the game fairly... without using cheap little exploits.

No im not talking about teleport from across the map im talking about ki pouncing which is teleporting and stopping a persons swoop before he can even swoop.

 

[Phatslugga]

First of all, plenty of people use it. You and your small group of friends don't count for everyone. Secondly, We have to repeat ourselves, becase you all complain about the same thing over and over again.
Just in case I need to be more blunt, the answer to your question "what...is...the...point...of...having...the..adv...melee...arrows..system...if...noone..uses..it...because...it..gets...u...nowhere...?", which I might add is a stupid one, is that the point of having adv. melee is that there ARE people that like it and use it.. when did you come to the assumption that no one uses it, becuase of the complaints on the forum? The 10 people that complain about it make up 100% of the ESF fanbase?

"OMG ADV MELLE SUCKS WE WANT 1.1 BACK!!"
"Then use the Cvar, as Halorin said."
".....OMG ADV MELLE SUCKS WE WANT 1.1 BACK!!"

God, just shut the hell up already, you don't like it, we know. Plenty of other people that like it, and you can always use your CVAR.

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

When I see you come up with a thought out suggestion, I'll acknowledge it. I made a 5 and a half page thesis on what I thought melee should be. Your entire melee concept was said from beginning to end in three sentences. I don't even know what the hell you mean, 'leave the old style melee with the hit backs,' so.. "Hi."

Let me ask you a question: Have you made your own server and played the 'basic' melee version of 1.2 by using the cvar? I doubt you have, but here you are complaining anyway. The majority of the people like 1.2 with advanced melee and all. If you want to play without advanced melee, and have the old style knockback distances, you can with a cvar. That's something that has been mentioned plenty of times. This entire time you've been ranting on about something that's already available in the game.

Go try it, and then come back.

I have alot of times with bots.

QUOTE=Phatslugga]First of all, plenty of people use it. You and your small group of friends don't count for everyone. Secondly, We have to repeat ourselves, becase you all complain about the same thing over and over again.
Just in case I need to be more blunt, the answer to your question "what...is...the...point...of...having...the..adv...melee...arrows..system...if...noone..uses..it...because...it..gets...u...nowhere...?", which I might add is a stupid one, is that the point of having adv. melee is that there ARE people that like it and use it.. when did you come to the assumption that no one uses it, becuase of the complaints on the forum? The 10 people that complain about it make up 100% of the ESF fanbase?

"OMG ADV MELLE SUCKS WE WANT 1.1 BACK!!"
"Then use the Cvar, as Halorin said."
".....OMG ADV MELLE SUCKS WE WANT 1.1 BACK!!"

God, just shut the hell up already, you don't like it, we know. Plenty of other people that like it, and you can always use your CVAR.[/quote]

My issues are really how 1.1 simple melee was implemented well the speed draws backs.

The teleports are fine i just wish the delay was after you teleport.

The double tap swoop will take some getting used too.

I heard the adv melee will have a speed cvar so u will be actually inputting the combos and doing the animations at the same time.

The knockback length I wish was like 1.1.

I basically just want that stuff changed.

Oh yea also when you are chain swooping :example
"If you are doing a forward swoop, and then you change your swoop up to a right swoop and then back to a forward swoop, the whoever swoops first thing comes back into play, I think it should be whoever has been swooping the longest should win the head on."

 

[MysticUub]

Mysticuub's Perfect Melee System Suggestion

This was inspired by the one and only Halorin. He mentioned his long post about melee the way he thought it should be, so I will do the same.

First, we'll talk about swooping because its the basis of melee. In my perfect melee system idea, I think that in order to swoop you shoul double tap a direction. It can either be left, right, forward, or backward, u can also double tap jump to swoop up, and crouch to swoop down. Also, u should be able to link swoops together in order to swoop for longer periods of time. Another suggestion would be to hold down the left mouse button and push a direction. As above u can either go left, right, forward, backward, up, or down.

Next, lets talk about the hitting process. To me the whole arrow system is pointless. No matter how much u argue the point u cannot "trick" ppl into pushing buttons that all they have to do is look at unless they are excited and get ahead of themselves (which rarely happens). To hit someone u should just hold down right click, just like in the 1.1 and 1.0 melee systems. For those of u who like the "tactical" side of 1.2, u will still have your 6 direction swoops as well as chainswoops which will give u an advantage (that i will explain a little later). When u hit someone it will knock them backward, again just like 1.0 and 1.1 melee. Also, a valad point I guess I should make now is that there wont be any targeting but some type of "tracking" or "indication" system, maybe once u hit someone it puts a box around them (just like Alea suggested in another thread). You are free to charge any beam/ball u wish and send at the opponent to disorient them while u head in for the melee kill. This gives u the freedom to mix your attacks much like ppl do in 1.2 and gives it a more tactical feel.

Now, lets move onto head ons. I know most everyone thats ever played 1.1 for more than 5 mins will agree that the biggest problem with that version was the HOWing part of it. To rid the game of this cheap tactic, u could impliment the knock back system that is in place now. Now, chain swooping will give u the advantage in that u will build up momentum. The longer u chain swoop, the more power u build into your swoop, and the better chance of u winning a head on is. To elaborate, say i swoop at my opponent and he swoops back, if we both just head on each other we both get knocked back and have little or no damage. On the other hand, if say i swoop and stop, but he continues to chain swoop and i try to head on him, he would win because he built up more "momentum".

Last, but certainly not least, a few misc. suggestions about a few small tweaks that I feel should be made. First, the tele restriction. I know a lot of u guys (sonic boyster especially <_<) are thinking "OMG TELE WAS AN EXPLOIT IN 1.1!one1" but if u think about it, it wasnt. True, some people had it scripted, but there was one MAJOR flaw in that. If they used their script, and missed (which happened a LOT), they were out of ki and thus screwed and wide open for attack. Besides, this arguement is totally irrelevant in this version because it is hard coded into the game that u CANNOT use scripts. You CANNONT bind more than one command to a key, beleive me I know people that have tried. Also, like Ive said in other posts, if u got hit because someone used a script, it meant u were either trying to how them, trying to beam spam, or were just sitting around doing nothing and wouldnt have noticed them swooping in on u anyway so one hit wouldnt make a difference. The second small tweak, which might not even need to be tweaked, is swoop speed. It seems like its a whole lot slower to me, but it might just be map scaling. If it is map scaling maybe just tweak the swoop speed a little bit so that it doesnt seem so slow, because i know on maps like esf_tom, it seems like im crawling when i swoop, even if i have turbo on.

Well, this is what i feel would be the best melee system. It includes elements of surprise and tactics, but also stays true to what this game was built on melee wise and fixes a few of its more annoying exploits from 1.1. I know a lot of u are going to say that this is in the game already and that all it is is the melee system without the arrows, but that is the point. This is more a more in depth explination of what ive been trying to put across in this thread from the beginning. The fact that advanced melee, no matter how good at it u think u are, or how much u try to "trick" someone with it, will always be too easy to block because any 7 year old with decent hand eye coordination can input buttons that come across the screen.

 

[Draylock1]

Sorry we all can't make a 5 page suggestion Hal, or even write our own 5 page research paper for **** sakes. And for the people who tell us how we havn't "learned" the system yet, **** OFF. Simply, because, I spent a year and 4 months learning the other one, because it was fun to play and learn. And wow, was it fast.

Clan match, 1.2 goes like this. OMFG THROW HIM MY WAY I GOT A SPECIAL BEAM CANNON CHARGED ROFLCOPTER!!!!

K HOLD ON KEKEK ^_^

YOU GOT HIM?

YA I GOT HIM I'M THROWING TO THE GROUND UNDER ME

WTF JUICE HE JUMPED OFF THE GROUND?????

Ok, clan matches in 1.1 pwn any clan matches on anygame. Yeah, they're we're hackers. Mostly on won, and they patches 1.2 to make it so hacker's ..... couldn't hack?

Grats on swooping, you swoop in every direction slow as hell now. Grats on after images, even know you got a delay from hell. Grats on melee, DDR all-stars.

They should have tweaked 1.1, not revamped.

 

[KnyghtX]

no no no no no, im not cuz ur all complaining that the random arrows take away skill, saying you have to guess them, makeing the game based on luck, there u go contradicting your arguement.

I never said anything about guessing arrows. The others did, so quit putting words into my mouth. I said that its easy enough to see a pattern in what people do because the noobs that infested the esf world have all started playing when ESF became newbie friendly.

If you're going to add new combos than you might as well hook up two Xbox's invite 7 friends over and play mortal combat tournament. Speaking of which, mortal combat offers more of a challenge and action than Adv. Melee. Because in Adv. Melee the arrows show up on your screen, making it so much ****ing easier to dodge.

 

[niobe]

let's say that atv. melee sux, 1.2 has even more bug's that 1.1.
realy, the only thing i like is the swooping thing but that's bin made ugly becours first there was dust when you swoop on the grond but now it's getting borring.
1.1 with evm 1.2 is even better that that crappy esf 1.2
what is exely good in esf 1.2, just tell me.........WAT?

 

[Mr.Gimp]

let's say that atv. melee sux, 1.2 has even more bug's that 1.1.
realy, the only thing i like is the swooping thing but that's bin made ugly becours first there was dust when you swoop on the grond but now it's getting borring.
1.1 with evm 1.2 is even better that that crappy esf 1.2
what is exely good in esf 1.2, just tell me.........WAT?

This thread is about Suggestions, not crits.

I have a suggestion, for all who dislike Beta 1.2. Just have patience, you did not have to pay for this mod, it was your choice to download it. The team did not make any false statements or promises about the mod. You play it at your own risk, if you don't like the gameplay then go see if you can make a better mod. The team poured months of sweat and blood (dunno why anybody would be working if they were bleeding) into this mod to make gamers happy. They did make majority happy, but there will always will be the ones who dislike the game.

I suggest the team keeps doing what they do best, making this mod better each release.

 

[Halorin]

Mysticuub's Perfect Melee System Suggestion

This was inspired by the one and only Halorin. He mentioned his long post about melee the way he thought it should be, so I will do the same.

First, we'll talk about swooping because its the basis of melee. In my perfect melee system idea, I think that in order to swoop you shoul double tap a direction. It can either be left, right, forward, or backward, u can also double tap jump to swoop up, and crouch to swoop down. Also, u should be able to link swoops together in order to swoop for longer periods of time. Another suggestion would be to hold down the left mouse button and push a direction. As above u can either go left, right, forward, backward, up, or down.

Next, lets talk about the hitting process. To me the whole arrow system is pointless. No matter how much u argue the point u cannot "trick" ppl into pushing buttons that all they have to do is look at unless they are excited and get ahead of themselves (which rarely happens). To hit someone u should just hold down right click, just like in the 1.1 and 1.0 melee systems. For those of u who like the "tactical" side of 1.2, u will still have your 6 direction swoops as well as chainswoops which will give u an advantage (that i will explain a little later). When u hit someone it will knock them backward, again just like 1.0 and 1.1 melee. Also, a valad point I guess I should make now is that there wont be any targeting but some type of "tracking" or "indication" system, maybe once u hit someone it puts a box around them (just like Alea suggested in another thread). You are free to charge any beam/ball u wish and send at the opponent to disorient them while u head in for the melee kill. This gives u the freedom to mix your attacks much like ppl do in 1.2 and gives it a more tactical feel.

Now, lets move onto head ons. I know most everyone thats ever played 1.1 for more than 5 mins will agree that the biggest problem with that version was the HOWing part of it. To rid the game of this cheap tactic, u could impliment the knock back system that is in place now. Now, chain swooping will give u the advantage in that u will build up momentum. The longer u chain swoop, the more power u build into your swoop, and the better chance of u winning a head on is. To elaborate, say i swoop at my opponent and he swoops back, if we both just head on each other we both get knocked back and have little or no damage. On the other hand, if say i swoop and stop, but he continues to chain swoop and i try to head on him, he would win because he built up more "momentum".

Last, but certainly not least, a few misc. suggestions about a few small tweaks that I feel should be made. First, the tele restriction. I know a lot of u guys (sonic boyster especially <_<) are thinking "OMG TELE WAS AN EXPLOIT IN 1.1!one1" but if u think about it, it wasnt. True, some people had it scripted, but there was one MAJOR flaw in that. If they used their script, and missed (which happened a LOT), they were out of ki and thus screwed and wide open for attack. Besides, this arguement is totally irrelevant in this version because it is hard coded into the game that u CANNOT use scripts. You CANNONT bind more than one command to a key, beleive me I know people that have tried. Also, like Ive said in other posts, if u got hit because someone used a script, it meant u were either trying to how them, trying to beam spam, or were just sitting around doing nothing and wouldnt have noticed them swooping in on u anyway so one hit wouldnt make a difference. The second small tweak, which might not even need to be tweaked, is swoop speed. It seems like its a whole lot slower to me, but it might just be map scaling. If it is map scaling maybe just tweak the swoop speed a little bit so that it doesnt seem so slow, because i know on maps like esf_tom, it seems like im crawling when i swoop, even if i have turbo on.

Well, this is what i feel would be the best melee system. It includes elements of surprise and tactics, but also stays true to what this game was built on melee wise and fixes a few of its more annoying exploits from 1.1. I know a lot of u are going to say that this is in the game already and that all it is is the melee system without the arrows, but that is the point. This is more a more in depth explination of what ive been trying to put across in this thread from the beginning. The fact that advanced melee, no matter how good at it u think u are, or how much u try to "trick" someone with it, will always be too easy to block because any 7 year old with decent hand eye coordination can input buttons that come across the screen.

All of this is good and well, and the game may very well be adjusted to something like this in the future, but I have to tell you, advanced melee is just not going anywhere. If you remember how I reacted to the concept of arrows in melee, you'd know I didn't like it at first, but after understanding what it could mean, then I started to enjoy it. Think about it. It's a cool idea to be able to do crazy ass combo's in ESF like having Trunks light up someone's life with his sword or watching some bald midget going buck ass wild on Frieza Form 2 with blurred punches, but how can that be implemented without sending the gameplay pace to the speed of a 2D fighter? Everyone likes the concept of people earning hits by outswooping someone, so why not use that as a basis to allow the cool attacks to happen? Using arrows is the only real sensible way to maintain a fast pace AND open up the possibility of seeing Darktooth's ridiculously good animations put into use. I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to swoop up to someone and do, "Left Punch, Left Punch, Kick, Kick, Right Punch" with keybinds to fight someone with punches. The arrows are just cutting out that kind of middleman. If you want to think it's "DDR All-Stars," that's fine, but it's on you for being rather ignorant about the development process of this game. If the team wanted, they could have waited a lot longer for all of the animations to be done and released 1.2 with all the combos I'm sure they have planned, and you all would have griped, waiting for its release. Why do you think they're releasing a 1.2.1 patch so soon? Because they released 1.2 as it is now to test the waters and hear some feedback to make the platform of the new melee system better.

Everything you suggested is reasonable and COULD happen, but I'm telling you for a fact, arrows are not leaving the game, and will become a viable method of attack relatively soon.

Just so I don't sound like some guy out to slam everyone's opinion, I will give my suggestions for the 1.2.1 patch here, and show everyone what I personally would like to get done. Check back soon.