" You know it's a Myth"

[Synth]

 

[DiebytheSword]

You are confusing religious belief with normal belief. Do you actively believe that there are no red pineapples which glow with the fury of a thousand suns? No, it is a passive thing to which you pay no mind. In the same way, an atheist might argue there is no God due to the extremely low probability of a complex, specific God existing and interacting with mankind on the basis of that religion's scripture and general logic. Of course, there is no way to disprove deism, but with deism, you don't actually need to believe in God to live a good life/afterlife.



Belief in God could easily be considered a delusion, psychologically speaking. I have lots of small delusions. There's no need to be offended by my point of view. You think I'm going to Hell (or at the very least, not to Heaven), I think your God is in your head. These are natural consequences of our religious viewpoints. If you think I am trying to shame you into abandoning your faith, you are mistaken. That's not how you convert someone. Have you ever thought someone's argument to be more reasonable if they smack you in the face with it? No. Converting anyone to any religion requires a level of subtlety, and manipulation/introduction of Ninian Smart's seven dimensions of religion.



Fair enough. I apologise.



I don't believe there is no god any more than you actively believe that unicorn-walrus hybrids exist. It's a lack of faith, and you need to understand that to understand atheism. I never said you were generally unreasonable. I said you had an omnipotent, imaginary friend. I also never involved any form of martyring or killing others. I said as long as you don't hurt anyone. I think that applies to all views; religious, political, social and otherwise.



So whoever criticizes religious people for evangelism is automatically a hypocrite. How convenient.



Moderate Muslims make exceptions for school and work so that they can live their lives in accordance with modern society. Those prayertimes are based on a very ancient tradition with very flexible work hours. Amusingly enough, if a Muslim moves far enough north or south, they can skip a whole bunch of prayers for large portions of the year by merit of the Sun alone.



The burden of proof lies with the accuser, and any valid theory should be falsifiable. Religions aren't falsifiable, and they've never presented any kind of evidence, so saying that "God doesn't exist" isn't really such a flaw in logic. No more than saying "there are no humans who are sixty feet tall" is quite a belief. Personally, I would say "God probably doesn't exist, but if he does, he can go **** himself." just to be sure I didn't leave anything out.


@Synth:

Over here, Christian advertisement started when a man called Olaf the Holy brought his army back from Britain and decided to "advertise" at swordpoint. At least we kept the fun traditions of olde, like Christmas.

If you have a lack of faith, and believe that God probably does not exist, you are not a true Gnostic, you're somewhere inbetween agnostic and gnostic. A gnostic beleives he has hard, fast truth that God does not, and can not, exist.

Perhaps I miswrote, or was misunderstood, but I intended to convey that anyone who spreads atheism by silencing religion and criticises evangelism while they are at it, are a bunch of hypocrites, as you are effectively doing the same thing as the people you are criticisng. If you are not trying to silence religion, and you believe in leaving others beliefs alone, then you can criticise all you like. I personally don't like those billboards, which I've already stated.

As far as belief, I don't think you are going to hell, I just don't think you are saved by Christ, quite different things.

 

[harSens]

Couldn't resist. A sign to help you with the important mysteries in life.

 

[Grega]

If it was only the left sock, then you was lucky.

Usually you have to satisfy him with a whole leg.

 

[Prozac]

Couldn't resist. A sign to help you with the important mysteries in life.
http://www.herwinvanwelbergen.nl/esf/sock.png

That's just cruel on so many levels.
Firstly he ate your bloody sock, secondly, you have a right sock spare now.. Which you can't use because it's not a matching set.
And each time you see it, you'll be reminded of the left sock that was eaten! So incredibly cruel.

 

[Rocky]

I genuinely don't get the religion hate people seem to have.

I'm not the most religious person in the world, pretty far from it actually, but I will valiantly fight against anyone who decides to put down my faith. I think most modern people will find it hard to believe that the stories in a book written millennia ago and I'm not even sure I do, but it's not about that, my religion teaches me to be good to others, respectful to my family and overall a good honest person, and I honestly don't see what's wrong with that.

The issues people have with religion are with extremists who take it too far "in the name of god" or the converters who are trying to "save you from eternal damnation".

Most moderate religious people that I know at least, are comfortable just being who they are and doing what they do, but reading about aethiests who are determined to prove god doesn't exist, or to ridicule those who do believe in god are just painful, and I agree that they are exactly the same as the door-knocking christian who is trying to turn you to his side.

 

[Avenger]

If you have a lack of faith, and believe that God probably does not exist, you are not a true Gnostic, you're somewhere inbetween agnostic and gnostic. A gnostic beleives he has hard, fast truth that God does not, and can not, exist.

No, that makes him an agnostic. Just like I am an agnostic. Agnostic atheism is the most common form of atheism.

 

[DiebytheSword]

No, that makes him an agnostic. Just like I am an agnostic. Agnostic atheism is the most common form of atheism.

You're actually quite right on that point, except the part where you insist that I have an omnipotent imaginary freind. That's a bit more forcefull than I don't believe in a god and I don't think it can be proven or disproven that one exists. All I'm saying is that you lean towards the gnostic side of the spectrum, because to you God's existance is a delusion, your own words.

 

[Chakra-X]

I'm an agnostic and I do not feel compelled to convert people. If more people became agnostics and religions gradually became less popular/widespread, I wouldn't lose any sleep though.

I don't think the idea of a supreme being is delusional, but my quip is that humans have been doing the "we understand how x works, so a god must have did it because we are inferior!" since the beginning of time. Again it's not farfetch'd to think the complex makeup out of universe follow a divine pattern, but to think "I am having trouble doing x, but with God on my side, I can do anything". Why do they need a god to succeed? Why can't it be on their own merits, on their strong will and determination? Or even, good/bad luck? I know certain coincidences can be like "really? this is how it happened", and not just small ones, but long term affecting ones that make one think "wow my life is now like this because I talked to that one girl who happened to be there" or something, can feel like they are made from larger power. This is why I am agnostic, I do not believe in any of the organized religions concepts of God and I think they are wrong for the most part, but I feel like there could be *something* out there that we have not grasped yet.

And then the fact there are multiple religions and with their own sects bugs me. Then the argument can be made that "We are just praying to the same God, just in different ways", oh but not Greek gods, that's just silly. A God controlling the oceans? Pffft, you're crazy, but if you like kissing guys, you're going to hell. A chariot driving the sun is stupid, but Muhammad jumped off a rock in to heaven! Sure if you strip all the sects and supernatural stuff away, you get "God loves all his creations". Okay, then let's just be nice people. No church should be necessary. No text should be either. God's word is not holy when a man *interprets* it himself, bastardizing, picking and choosing, exploiting, etc., which is ultimately why I do not trust any of the religions.

 

[DiebytheSword]

I'm an agnostic and I do not feel compelled to convert people. If more people became agnostics and religions gradually became less popular/widespread, I wouldn't lose any sleep though.

I don't think the idea of a supreme being is delusional, but my quip is that humans have been doing the "we understand how x works, so a god must have did it because we are inferior!" since the beginning of time. Again it's not farfetch'd to think the complex makeup out of universe follow a divine pattern, but to think "I am having trouble doing x, but with God on my side, I can do anything". Why do they need a god to succeed? Why can't it be on their own merits, on their strong will and determination? Or even, good/bad luck? I know certain coincidences can be like "really? this is how it happened", and not just small ones, but long term affecting ones that make one think "wow my life is now like this because I talked to that one girl who happened to be there" or something, can feel like they are made from larger power. This is why I am agnostic, I do not believe in any of the organized religions concepts of God and I think they are wrong for the most part, but I feel like there could be *something* out there that we have not grasped yet.

And then the fact there are multiple religions and with their own sects bugs me. Then the argument can be made that "We are just praying to the same God, just in different ways", oh but not Greek gods, that's just silly. A God controlling the oceans? Pffft, you're crazy, but if you like kissing guys, you're going to hell. A chariot driving the sun is stupid, but Muhammad jumped off a rock in to heaven! Sure if you strip all the sects and supernatural stuff away, you get "God loves all his creations". Okay, then let's just be nice people. No church should be necessary. No text should be either. God's word is not holy when a man *interprets* it himself, bastardizing, picking and choosing, exploiting, etc., which is ultimately why I do not trust any of the religions.

And yet you compare a god whose analogue is literally the natural order of things, as the Abrahamic God is, and say he is as rediculous as Apollo. From your perspective, I'm sure you think he is, and thus, you really do think that followers of religion are delusional. You just say it nicer.

I don't know what bible everyone else reads, but mine says that laying things on gods hands without any expectation of hardwork on my part is not really tolerated by God, and something that Satan hopes we do. It proves that we are unworthy of God's grace. You are to build your house on the rock, not have God assemble the house on a rock of his chosing. 'Cause guess what? That house won't be built. I personally thank god for the possibility he has built in us from the birth of our species, which gives us strength and courage at just the right times, rather than the divine intervention ascribed to him. Thats not to say that I do not believe in miracles, I do, but I find them to be very, very infrequent.

I also see in homosexuality a simple sin no different than what I may do in the course of my life, like being judgemental about someone, or not turning my other cheek to violence. This does not garauntee a trip to hell, no matter what any bigot tells you the bible says, Jesus died on the cross for those sins as well. As it has been said, may he who is without sin cast the first stone. We are not to judge others, that is for Jesus alone. The bible encourages people to live as Christlike as possible, not live as Christ did or go to hell.

And the part about not eating shellfish with the same condemnation is just a paragraph away. Let he who has enjoyed red lobster officially shut the **** up.

Also you seem less like an agnostic and more like a diest to me. You believe in the possibility of a devine being, but not neccesarily in the institutions built by man around the idea of god.

Finally, sects within Christianity develop over irreconcilable interpretations of scripture. Romans forbids Mary worship, Saints are not to be idolized, but the Catholic Church does these things in flagrant violation of the apostle's and Moses' word. In Catholicism, only the vatican may decide who goes to heaven and hell, because they are the stewards of our world from talking from a specific pulpit with a funny hat. Where the bible teaches that Jesus is the one and only person who decides who recieves everlasting life. Hence the split between Catholicsm, Anglicism, Protestants etc. It's not about praying differently, its about fundamental disagreement between people who follow the same God.

I have a fair amount of dislike of both the Vatican and the bible belt interpretations of our shared source.

 

[Chakra-X]

And yet you compare a god whose analogue is literally the natural order of things, as the Abrahamic God is, and say he is as rediculous as Apollo. From your perspective, I'm sure you think he is, and thus, you really do think that followers of religion are delusional. You just say it nicer.

I see what you mean, but it depends on how the person interprets the Christian god. If one believes the world around us is all science and has no affect by God until our death/before the beginning of time, I can't go as far as to call them delusional because hell it could always be true in some form, it's quite a massive scale think at, so a placeholder like "God" in not unordinary. But if this person tried to tell me things like Earth is 6000 years old, God made the hurricanes of Katrina to kill sinners, God wants you to kill these people you don't know in his name, that the apocalypse is coming, or even the story of the great flood, I would find those views delusional.

And regarding not doing work and expecting God to make things work, I am referring to less obvious means. I am not going to use award-winning speeches as an example because it's also too obvious. If a man thanks God for the family he has, he is expressing his true happiness with the ones around him, which is really nice. However what role did God have in this? Did he inspire the family to be good? This means people are bad by natures and need the divine to be compassionate. Place the man and his future wife at the same place at the same time? I earlier said how this is something that could seem diviny-ish, but still, I feel social skills, self presentation, and personality come in to greater play than a God. Give them the strength to get through hard times? This means their willpower is not from their strong will but a God allowing it to be strong. Allow the children to be unhealthy? This means God purposely makes certain babies with defects. I am probably taking it too literally but this is what I see when people thank God for things.

 

[DiebytheSword]

While I vehemently disagree with the young earth crowd, mainly on the account that genesis states that the earth was already here when we were here, however there are some compelling arguments for a global flood. Katrina as a punishment is rediculous, couldn't agree more. Falwell is one of the idiots in the bible belt that I disagree with often. I don't think Jesus smiles on violence, period.

 

[J-Dude]

Oh ho ho...man, that's a burn.

Wow, given how insanely people reacted to that one billboard that merely offered a gathering of the non-religious, I can't WAIT to hear the complaints for this one.

Either this wasn't a great idea, and the makers mistook outright insensitivity for boldness, or they remembered the backlash the previously mentioned one got DESPITE being civil, and said, "**** it, they're going to verbally crucify us anyway..."

Cuc spoke earlier in the thread about agnostics and atheists, but where I stand, if you really think about it, "God" is just a term.

I mean, once a phenomenon is explained, it's not magic anymore.

Once an animal is named and classified, it's not a monster anymore.

So, if you were to ask me, if some ethereal consciousness with extra-dimensional power DID exist, and could be explained, measured, and it's limitations identified, it wouldn't really be a "God" anymore. That's the problem with considering yourself agnostic if you don't think any current religions got anything close to the real picture. You might believe Godlike beings EXIST, or COULD exist, but by your definition, would they be "Gods" anymore?

 

[DiebytheSword]

Except it didn't just offer a gathering of the non-religious, it specifically offered that Christianity is a myth, and that Christianity is inherently unreasonable. Had it delivered the message right, there would be no problem.

For instance, the evangelical boards posted by synth. They don't say, "You know Mohammed is a fraud, why don't you celebrate the prophets that actually had the backing of god! This Ramadan hurry over to a church and celebrate the kingdom of Christ!" If they did, there would be outrage greater than what is drummed up about having religion shoved down their throat. Again, this billboard doesn't bother me one bit, its people who dislike Christianity trying to get back at it while spreading their own vision. Its a dick move.

God is just a term, but then, god fits the definition of alien as well, as he would be a non-human, non-earthly intelligence. I suppose if he exposed himself to scruitiny that the mystery would be gone, but had he created us then the definition of Creator would still fit quite correctly.

I personally think the universe is someone elses huge Rube Goldberg machine. The rules were set in place during the big bang, and the machine has been going ever since. I think any intervention on God's behalf is exceedingly rare and done in ways we can't understand for reasons we can't fathom. I'm not sure the God I believe in could ever be understood, and yeah, sometimes that scares me. I find the universe to be far too structured to be a cosmic accident or the logical progression of the second law of thermodynamics.

Also, it is quite odd defending Christianity against you, lol. I had grown quite used to you being my only back up for a long time. Still, I want to make it clear that I don't begrudge you your position.

 

[Synth]

[video=youtube;VOzkEwaMnaE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOzkEwaMnaE[/video]

I think I would rather worship H²O for forming in the gas cloud that was magnetically trapped or is being pressurized by solar winds around Earth's core.

It allows me to breathe... when religion believes it has the right to make me stop.

 

[DiebytheSword]

[video=youtube;VOzkEwaMnaE]It allows me to breathe... when some religions believe they have the right to make me stop.

Fixed that for you.

 

[J-Dude]

Also, it is quite odd defending Christianity against you, lol. I had grown quite used to you being my only back up for a long time. Still, I want to make it clear that I don't begrudge you your position.

Me, backup? Back when I said ignorant, baseless things to people who obviously knew better? I can imagine better allies than I was. I won't say I'm entirely reformed, I can be a pretty bitter person in a verbal argument, but it helps when the facts ARE on the side I'm fighting for.

To what I said about a consciousness, I meant merely that. Perhaps, inferring that the Universe itself was a living brain, and the stars were it's neurons, or that a nebula had achieved self-awareness.

Personally, I've had a sincere issue with notions of "reasons we cannot fathom", as if an idea is of such complexity that our minds are, in fact, incapable of comprehension. I'll grant in cases like, say, a fifth dimension of space, we cannot perceive it, just as in "Flatland", a square couldn't understand what a cube was.

But then again, we can't see infrared either, but we can build a machine that does, and gives us the data in terms we CAN understand. More and more I'm beginning to think man's potential to contemplate is boundless, and that anything too much for us personally can be bridged with some clever, resourceful means. By no means am I trying to be arrogant. There are scores of things we don't know, and don't see how we can. But time is the great unveiler. What a man deemed impossible once is everyday now.

And then there is the problem I've always had with the notion many religions apply to themselves: they argue against scientific theories for the origins of the Universe, and say that "something cannot come from nothing". This is to imply, that a God would have HAD to inspire creation. But their argument works against them as well. If something cannot come from nothing, and God is indeed under the "something" category, then where did God come from? And this is where most religions cop-out. "He always was, and always will be". Is this to imply some extra-dimensional plane of being, in which time is meaningless? Or is this simply telling you not to question God, that he is awesome, and that's all there is to it. The way religions tend to shoo away legitimate questions has always concerned me. If a God of a religion was indeed the true God, then why would he not be clear? If we are all meant to be given an equal chance to believe in him, then why rely on something so easily lost, reproduced or tampered with as a book, or word of mouth, to spread his messages? And why is everything so vague and devoid of coinciding fact, that there can be any doubt that he is the one true God? Why does Genesis say God created everything, but spoke of the Sun as if it weren't simply another of the billions of billions of stars he'd created? Why does an infinitely powerful God need a seventh day in order to rest? Does God tire, then? Why do all religious texts apply their logic and knowledge only to things already known or believed at the time, and not to how things ARE as they've been PROVED to be, as far in the future as we are now? Why wouldn't the facts stay constant, if they were indeed, "Facts".

Friend, it is human to question. I can no longer condone beliefs that require me to ignore logic, ignore fact, ignore my own heart, and bow down to something that I have never felt, and has made no tangible effort to feel me.

 

[DiebytheSword]

Bravo, in fact, you should never stop questioning. Especially your new belief. Science will sell you fables as well, sure it will be corrected in 60 years time or so when a better theaory fits the facts that were observed, but remember that in order to accept a theory you have to believe it as well. True, you are handed facts which support a theory, but you can only really trust the Laws to be right, the rest are very, very well informed guesses. If you can hold your new belief to your new standards, I will never question your intent.

I don't think you said ignorant, baseless things every time you spoke, and I'm not sure calling the people that ridiculed your betters isn't what I'd call someone who happened to be right when (and if) you happened to be wrong. Even if you were saying something I didn't agree with, it was nice to have at least one person fighting with me. Intent was appreciated.

When I say things we can't imagine in ways we cannot fathom that logic can truthfully be put on any autonamous being separated by being in another body. I can no more discern your reasons for doing something than you can discern mine. What is different is that we haven't the slightest clue what he's like, and I'm not sure I trust all of the scripture all of the time on that matter. We don't understand how something like him might work, other than multi-dimensional existance. We can know eventually I suppose, provided he decides to not be all mysterious.

For your point on the origins on the universe, that is something that the world's religions and science mostly agree on. There was never a nothing. There was always something. Sure, some Catholics and Anglicans rewrote or misinterpreted the old testament, stating that god created the earth and the heavens. It actually starts with, "In the beginning, the World was in chaos." That does not paint a picture of nothingness being forged into our universe.

"Or is this simply telling you not to question God, that he is awesome, and that's all there is to it."

Yes, there are sects of Christiantiy that do just this. Do not question God, ever. Questioning God, means you question the authority of the bishops, archbishops, and popes. These things, in medeval times, were in fact used to control the ignorant who could not even read the bible. Unfortunately, they have found that sheep will fail to undestand what they read even as they keep the ignorant flock at their side. These organized practices are nothing new, and are a part of every institution where one man holds power over another.

"He always was, and always will be".

I debull****ify this down to, "He was here before us, more than that, we do not know."

"The way religions tend to shoo away legitimate questions has always concerned me."

Not me, ask away.


"If a God of a religion was indeed the true God, then why would he not be clear? If we are all meant to be given an equal chance to believe in him, then why rely on something so easily lost, reproduced or tampered with as a book, or word of mouth, to spread his messages?"

I don't know how much clearer appearing as a collum of pants-****ting, terror-inducing, fire from the sky complete with an angel that speaks for me because my voice would explode your head he can get. Man has always been the weak link in this equation. Organized religion does what it will with the texts and oral tradition, and this is why you MUST always question. Blind servitude from any of the Abrahamic religions is a disservice to their deity and a gross neglegence on their part of any covenant with a God. I'll address why not use a talking obelisk that serves as a personal cell phone call to god on demand wouldn't work a bit later.

"And why is everything so vague and devoid of coinciding fact, that there can be any doubt that he is the one true God?"

This one is rather simple, and very hard for someone with no faith to understand. If you believe without proof, you have faith. If you believe because of proof, your faith is meaningless, and not what God (at least in Christianity) is looking for. The Bible and Apocrypha mention this more than once. Regardless of whether or not its right, he seeks your undying devotion without proof, but he wants you to understand why it is you do this. Blind faith without belief is also useless.

"Why does Genesis say God created everything, but spoke of the Sun as if it weren't simply another of the billions of billions of stars he'd created? Why does an infinitely powerful God need a seventh day in order to rest? Does God tire, then?"

Why would he not? He is not perfect, nor infallable, the bible never makes him such. Sure he's Allmighty. He's also, in his own words, jealous, angry and wrathful. The God of the old testament is not a kindly thing when ired, whatever he is. If he was perfect, would have he created the imperfect qlippoth/demons, and almost perfect but useful angels, or the flawed but better than what came before humans? And yes, he is listed as tired. This idea of omnipotent and omnicient god comes from sects who needed to control people with a perfect infalable being, not from the scripture.

"Why do all religious texts apply their logic and knowledge only to things already known or believed at the time, and not to how things ARE as they've been PROVED to be, as far in the future as we are now? Why wouldn't the facts stay constant, if they were indeed, "Facts"."

There is a reason for that right in Genesis. By having Adam bite the fruit of knowledge, Eve caused mankind to become more like god in mind. In my mind, this means it opened up parts of our intellegence and curiosity that he never intended to flip on. We suddenly understood, and for whatever reason he had, he kicked us out into the world to toil the earth till the end of our days. I'm fairly sure that's what mankind still does, be that earth a farm, a factory, or a cubicle. I'm curious to say, I'd like to see what facts you culled from the bible and marked as not true. There aren't many facts to start with, as it is a collection of oral traditions that was eventually written down. Any truth or fact was ruined by the hands of man, not the fallacy of god.


I'm not saying I have all the answers. If that were the case I wouldn't be adminstrating an internet forum. I'm saying that you must quetsion, and I have asked some of these questions to myself.

 

[Avenger]

You're actually quite right on that point, except the part where you insist that I have an omnipotent imaginary freind. That's a bit more forcefull than I don't believe in a god and I don't think it can be proven or disproven that one exists. All I'm saying is that you lean towards the gnostic side of the spectrum, because to you God's existance is a delusion, your own words.

If I believed I had a pink, invisible, ethereal unicorn following me around and helping me out in need, would you have a way of disproving that? No. But you might consider it a figment of my imagination rather than reality, simply based on the fact that you've never seen a pink, invisible, ethereal unicorn, and there's no reason to think it's around. You would never know if it existed or not, but for practical purposes, you would assume I was quite delusional. This is how I feel about religion. This point of view does not counter the concept of agnosticism. I don't know, and I don't claim to know. I claim that it's more likely that God is a human construct than that he is a flawed, pathetic creature; scurrying around for human approval.

@J-Dude:

Epicurus had a similar argument to what was in your first post. He wasn't an atheist, but his argument still stands tall as a monument to the flawed nature of "God" as a human construct.

@Cuc:

You point out a lot of reasons you should have picked a different religion. Why does the Abrahamic god have to be the right one? You could invent one more plausible than that. Why try to explain away the flaws of an ancient, evil God, when you could just accept that God is a concept of something greater than you, and you don't have to attach hundreds of years of political strife and power-struggles to it?

I might be a Deist if I didn't think the universe was great enough on its own, and in fact even greater to me, because I don't think a God made it. I think it just happened; and that it just happened is far more amazing to me than that some God designed it.

 

[Avenger]

The worst sin of all is that Christianity is the reason I can't buy beer after six pm on a Saturday. Also, Methodists wake me up every ******* Sunday. It's the day for REST, let me sleep!