Why Don't You Love Me, Baby?

[Zeonix]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20071212/ts_csm/ababy

While this story is wholly uninteresting at first glance, the results of their experiment does raise an interesting question. That question, of course, being "Is morality hardwired into us or something taught by outside forces?". I'm of the opinion that humans generally know right from wrong from the get go, but can be manipulated and abused in such a way that their moral compass no longer points to true north, and either can't differentiate between right and wrong or simply doesn't care. I believe hate and racism and concepts of that ilk are closer to being learned responses than something inherent to humans.

Going a step further, and I'm sure you knew I was going there, but what does this mean for people who claim religion is what instills morals in humans? If the way I'm interpreting the story is correct, we already have a well-developed sense of morality as children. As we grow older, we learn that not everything is black and white but mostly shades of grey, and we teach that to our children as they grow older. Is it necessary to indoctrinate our children in such a way that they are no longer listening to their own moral compass or learning from ours, but simply doing as they are told, not because they know right from wrong, but because their parents or a 2000 year old book says this is what you must do, even if it conflicts with their own sense of judgment?

Discuss.

 

[Avenger]

Judgement* [Insert evil, childish laugh here]

I found these results surprising, and if they are correct, perhaps most of a child's flaws in character, are caused by bad parenting? Not that that's the only source of influence, as a child can have bad friends and bad influences all around them in other places as well.

Those who imprint religion onto their children's minds are in my opinion thieves of freedom. Freedom to choose. If they are too ignorant to see what they're doing, then it's wrong for them to pass that ignorance on to their children - particularly if their children have a good moral compass from scratch.

Basically what this does, is annihilate Catholicism (unless my memory fails me) and several religions' beliefs that we are born with "sin", so to say - and that we don't need rigid guidance from our parents to have good morals. A very interesting bit of information.

 

[Adaptus]

I personally think that yes, humans have a weak built-in sense of morals, based on a simple system of "I don't want people to harm me, so I shall not harm others", and a desire to maintain harmony and stability in a person's environment (making it so they shall not seek to do harm to others). A person's experiences and such affect this greatly though, as we've seen.

 

[DiebytheSword]

the significance of the e, is to elongate the previous constanant, in this case, the g. without it, it would sound like "jud - guh - ment".

when speaking the ENGLISH language, regardless of where you're from, you should still adhere to ENGLISH spellings.

in other words, americanisation (see the use of s instead of z) of words, is pure laziness on your part. and for someone who likes to think he's more intelligent than everyone else, i would have thought you'd see it for yourself.

and yes, i'm aware i don't capitalise the first letter of my sentances.

And would you have the same hissy fit if I spelt judgment the american way?

Please do not create more drama where there was none. This is not just to Lee, this is to Avenger as well. Please do not resort to childish bickering because you don't like someone. FFS, if you don't like him, at least stay out of his threads.

 

[Deman]

I can see why this would make sense, at least secularly.

If genetics play a role in personality disorders one might say that they play a role in personality order. People are social creatures and really need each other to survive. In our beginnings, those who weren't capable of at least helping others may have been ostracized from their communities, unable to pass on their genes.

 

[Avenger]

I suppose the problem today is that everything is too easy, and that people quickly seem to use that to profit themselves rather than help others. It's a sad state a lot of our societies are in.

 

[harSens]

So babies pick a toy that make a circle do something funny on top of a triangle over a toy that makes the circle roll down the triangle. And from that behavior scientist conclude that babies prefer good Samaritans? Urgh...

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

I personally think that yes, humans have a weak built-in sense of morals, based on a simple system of "I don't want people to harm me, so I shall not harm others", and a desire to maintain harmony and stability in a person's environment (making it so they shall not seek to do harm to others). A person's experiences and such affect this greatly though, as we've seen.

Bingo. Natural selection would support those who went around collecting allies rather than stealing and starting fights, but I doubt it is such an overwhelming influence that it drives us to be charitable and righteous.

 

[Hitokiri]

So babies pick a toy that make a circle do something funny on top of a triangle over a toy that makes the circle roll down the triangle. And from that behavior scientist conclude that babies prefer good Samaritans? Urgh...

It's true, who knows what they're really recognizing there. It's also possible, I think, that a 6-10-month year old has already, through experience, obtained concepts of morality. Children's media in all of its forms is essentially one giant, bright plastic smiling morality trip.

What should we tell kids? I think it'd probably be alright to say "Be kind. Don't kill. Don't steal." Things like that. "Jesus loves you and is your Lord and Savior" might be over the line. I don't think it's very fair to do that. Parents will be parents, however. As well, a Christian isn't going to tell you he's programming his child into a Christian because it's the only way to instill morals into him. I mean he might say that, but it doesn't really make a difference. Genetic morality or not, the purpose would be to save his soul from the eternal fires of hell. . . which is an entirely different argument we shouldn't pursue here.

 

[Brosiris]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20071212/ts_csm/ababy

While this story is wholly uninteresting at first glance, the results of their experiment does raise an interesting question. That question, of course, being "Is morality hardwired into us or something taught by outside forces?". I'm of the opinion that humans generally know right from wrong from the get go, but can be manipulated and abused in such a way that their moral compass no longer points to true north, and either can't differentiate between right and wrong or simply doesn't care. I believe hate and racism and concepts of that ilk are closer to being learned responses than something inherent to humans.

Going a step further, and I'm sure you knew I was going there, but what does this mean for people who claim religion is what instills morals in humans? If the way I'm interpreting the story is correct, we already have a well-developed sense of morality as children. As we grow older, we learn that not everything is black and white but mostly shades of grey, and we teach that to our children as they grow older. Is it necessary to indoctrinate our children in such a way that they are no longer listening to their own moral compass or learning from ours, but simply doing as they are told, not because they know right from wrong, but because their parents or a 2000 year old book says this is what you must do, even if it conflicts with their own sense of judgment?

Discuss.

To be honest, I feel that if something, a belief, is forced onto someone then most people tend to reject it and turn away. My sister and GF are perfect examples. My GF's parents force the catholic religion on her, make her go to church etc. However, little do her parents know that she is in no way religious based, and doesn't believe in God.

My sister in a similar fashion. My mother hates the fact that my sister listens to 'gothic' music and hangs out with 'gothic' friends. My mom hates it so much she insists on moving out of state just to get away from it (like moving solves problems and no other state has goths right?). However the more my mom tries to push her away from her friends the more she clings to them, and wants to be friends with them etc.

So when parents say this is something you MUST do or MUST believe in, I think kids tend to pick out flaws in their beliefs and tend to push away from the very idea that they wanted their kids to believe in, in the first place.

 

[Zeonix]

You're right about some kids seeing through their parents and disobeying them, either just for the sake of doing so, or because they can't bring themselves to believe what they may perceive to be fairy tales. I was raised in a pretty religious household, and look at how I turned out. Then again, watch Jesus Camp and see how most of them turned out. I think religious zealots along the bible belt outnumber kids who tried to rise above religious doctrine.

 

[sub]

If religion instills morals in people, can it not also instill violence? What if 9/11 wouldn't have happened if religion did not exist? It's a two way street.

 

[Zeonix]

I'm probably going to be bringing this up a lot, but in Jesus Camp that was exactly what the children were being trained to become: Christian Warriors. The woman in charge of the camp basically said Muslims are training their children to become warriors and martyrs and "we" can't win unless we do the same to our children. Instead of dying for Allah, they'll be dying for Jesus. You're allowed to see religious zealots in the making, and it's truly horrifying that this kind of thing is happening in our backyard.

 

[Brosiris]

If religion instills morals in people, can it not also instill violence? What if 9/11 wouldn't have happened if religion did not exist? It's a two way street.

As much as I like to believe it's "religion made me do it" I can't bring myself to think that's the real reason. They can say that all they want if it makes them sleep at night and makes them think they're going to heaven or where ever they think they're going.

But I can promise you that's not why they did it. All religion I don't care what kind (other then satanism or w/e) says to never do evil and always do good for man kind. And how killing is a sin. What the muslims did was against their religion and in my opinion did it because of their undying hate for America and what it stands for.

To me, religion is nothing more then a table you can lay your blames on. when something awesome and kick ass happens or miraculous happens, what do people say? "Thank God! Blah blah blah".

Or how about when something terrible in your life happens? You curse God, or believe Karma's kicking you in the ass. You blame God and ask what you did to deserve it.

 

[Zeonix]

Read the Bible or the Koran or the Torah. They're not as cute and cuddly as people would have you believe. Also, if you're being taught and trained to hate and eventually murder those of a different faith, or to get into politics and become powerful so that you can do your other crazy religious zealot friends' bidding, it's a result of religious upbringing and bad parenting. These people aren't doing crazy things for the sake of doing crazy things.

 

[Avenger]

Indeed. The most violent, horrible works of fiction ever written are in the Bibles. I mean, these books have been written by so many different people each that they're all bound to be crazy at some point or another. Teaching people (not to mention children) things from these is ... bizarre in my opinion.

 

[Raeku]

I love how an article about the social behavior of little children turns into a thread about how religion has to be a brain washing evil thing that encourages people to crash planes into buildings. ;/

I think people are born pure and innocent and as they grow older and are exposed to the "outside world" they slide down this hill of "morality". Religion/good parenting can either enforce good morals and keep them on a good path or take them off of it.
/2cents

 

[Zeonix]

No one is saying "ALL RELIGIOUS TYPES ARE BAD!!". That's why they're divided into groups, such as moderate and extremist. The fact of the matter is, though, that people do, in fact, use religion to brainwash their children either under the belief that religion is necessary to instill morals in their children or because they're trying to further their own goals. This study suggests humans are born with a basic set of morals, which pretty much defies the notion that we need to be taught to be good, and the only way to do that is to indoctrinate us. It defies the notion that society would fall apart if there were no religion, which is something religious-types seem to believe. As I said, I was raised in a religious household. Anything I say on the subject is taken directly from my experiences.

 

[DaRkOwNs]

As much as I like to believe it's "religion made me do it" I can't bring myself to think that's the real reason. They can say that all they want if it makes them sleep at night and makes them think they're going to heaven or where ever they think they're going.

But I can promise you that's not why they did it. All religion I don't care what kind (other then satanism or w/e) says to never do evil and always do good for man kind. And how killing is a sin. What the muslims did was against their religion and in my opinion did it because of their undying hate for America and what it stands for.

To me, religion is nothing more then a table you can lay your blames on. when something awesome and kick ass happens or miraculous happens, what do people say? "Thank God! Blah blah blah".

Or how about when something terrible in your life happens? You curse God, or believe Karma's kicking you in the ass. You blame God and ask what you did to deserve it

i know what your saying but there are people who grow up on religion. all they know is that the jews are evil, and just through human logic, they go and kill them.

im not a bible "efficianado" by any means so correct me if im wrong. according to christianity the jews killed jesus. therefore the christians dislike the jews. thats it. theres no moral there that says "forgive them" thats all i hear about them is that they killed jesus. logic says that jews suck.

what i mean by this is that they dont think of religion being the cause. they are infused with the morals before they can even think.

btw, its a sin not to believe in god. why? that instills the mindset that if you dont do what he says, you will burn in hell. the ammount of hatred you can get out of the bible is extraordinary. so i really sympathize with them.

but i have met quite a few excellent christians that never judged me or hated me for what i believe, thats what i think the saving grace for religion is.

 

[Avenger]

Saying children become "better" people by being Christian doesn't really seem right to me. There is no "saving grace", as the only thing improving someone's morals is how they are raised. Being raised Christian, Muslim, Jew or Atheist has nothing to do with the matter - it depends on how, not as what. At least that's my point of view.