wat is it about 1.2 u all hate?

[Zeonix]

Shin Carl is right. Who tf cares about how the game was intended to be played. What makes a game trully entertaining is being able to change it to your liking. Being able to teleport all over the place (the way they did in the anime this mod is based on) is fun. I dont want to play a game, not have fun, and take the game super seriously (the way many people do now). Swooping around at 15mph just isnt enjoyable imo.

 

[Fire Phoenix]

Yeah.. I'd Have to agree with Zeonix on this. What made esf 1.1 fun is, well for starters skill was a major factor. unlike it is now. there is SOME skill involved but a noob could pick up what your doing and copy it in 5-10 minutes. i know about the swooping thing and how it will be increased when you further trans in 1.3 but i mean... right now its soo darn slow. and it makes it easier to hit people and people to hit you.

 

[esfzealot]

obvious in 1.1 there was more skill than 1.2, it would actaully take a month for a noob to actually play the game right in 1.1, 1 thing i hate about 1.2 is that the beam jumps.. noobs can like run away forever .. it doesnt even take up that much ki so they just spam and run away all the time when i chase them... and most of u plp are way off topic plz stay on topic

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

You all have some fairly twisted ideas about what skill is. All you could do in 1.1 was either flick your wrist around really fast and try to hit someone at close range or fire off beams. The teleport-assisted combonations took practice but for the most part it took those people a month only because they weren't used to the speed. People picked up 1.2 faster because it's slower pace, but if you're getting knocked around by new people it's your own fault, and noone can say otherwise. If you let them always hit you with advanced melee that's your fault for not moving. If they had hit you with simple melee it would have been the same thing, they'd still have hit you.

It's true 1.2 also involves swooping in circles but at least you can cut someone off with a side swoop or wall jump at the last minute and swoop back into someone, or try to bounce them off of objects, which was much more difficult in 1.1 .

 

[esfzealot]

You all have some fairly twisted ideas about what skill is. All you could do in 1.1 was either flick your wrist around really fast and try to hit someone at close range or fire off beams. The teleport-assisted combonations took practice but for the most part it took those people a month only because they weren't used to the speed. People picked up 1.2 faster because it's slower pace, but if you're getting knocked around by new people it's your own fault, and noone can say otherwise. If you let them always hit you with advanced melee that's your fault for not moving. If they had hit you with simple melee it would have been the same thing, they'd still have hit you.

It's true 1.2 also involves swooping in circles but at least you can cut someone off with a side swoop or wall jump at the last minute and swoop back into someone, or try to bounce them off of objects, which was much more difficult in 1.1 .

1.1 melee wasnt about flicking the mouse there was lots of diff skills every 1 i fought had diff tech but some plp did the same **** over and over,,, 1.1 at least made sense like the ki system whoever had the most energy left always won,,,, 1.2 makes no sense, like the combos where the hell do all those punches and kiks come out of i dont even do nothing just 3 moves and all those kiks and punches wtf is that,,,,... and the basic melee i dont really get this if u can hit them once and the second time then why cant u hit him the third time i mean he is still in the air hit and trying to recover......that makes no sense cause i reach him before the opponent even recovers.. dbz is supposed to be fast as hell not in a slow paced rate...some things in 1.2 are good im not saying its all bad like the side swoop and wall jumps....

i just want a fair melee system which makes SENSE thats all... and dont say if u dont like it dont play it.. cause i played it for 3 years and im not quitting now, i stilll have big hopes for this mod..

the list of things i hate in 1.2
-beam jump ki
-melee combos (makes no sense)
-the slow paced swoop (dbz was always fast)
-tele delays (who cares if plp script its not that big of a deal same thing as mouse wheel)
-the amount of ki takin up from swooping u cant even have good fights always have to stop and plp can interfere so easily and kill u beofore u can regain any ki so that doesnt even give u a good chance..
-sum beams do way too much damage

these are just suggestions and completely an opnion and its wat i think of esf 1.1, 1.2 and blah blah

im not saying 1.2 is all bad sum of it is good~~

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

You say lots of people used different techniques. Give me examples other than HOWing. "Hitting someone in the side" is not a technique. Basically you could melee, beam, or try and mix them up. There were no wall jumps, you couldn't throw, you couldn't do any gambling (advanced melee), no gen balls. You could just hit someone really hard.

 

[Orbit]

Oh yeah, like gen balls help gameplay. The thing I hate the most (after advanced melee ofcourse) is that I get 2 hits and gen ball. You call that skill?
And if I fire GG someone just fires a gen ball at it and I have to push it back all the way. By that time the other person comes close to me and when I finish pushing BAM I get hit.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

Hitting someone in 1.2 requires almost exactly as much skill as hitting someone in 1.1 . Hitting them twice in a row is slightly more difficult. Hitting them twice and with a gen ball is slightly more difficult than that. All in all it requires more skill than it took to hit someone in 1.1, with the only problem people see being that you can't pull off mega awesome combos across the map with the shorter knockback. I'll admit those took a lot of practice, and I guess you could call it skill, but noone has said that kind of melee will never be re-implamented.

 

[esfzealot]

You say lots of people used different techniques. Give me examples other than HOWing. "Hitting someone in the side" is not a technique. Basically you could melee, beam, or try and mix them up. There were no wall jumps, you couldn't throw, you couldn't do any gambling (advanced melee), no gen balls. You could just hit someone really hard.

it wasnt just about howers and side hits its about tricking them... there wasnt really any tech in 1.1 it was just how they were playing they did wicked tricks and stuff you know like draylock he was the king of hower every 1 fell for his howers he can trick u soo good that u would always fall for it and this guy named inuyasha if u played with him his tele skills were soo good u wouldnt even know where he came from.. i agree there wasnt much in 1.1.. but the thing is in 1.2 it just doesnt make any sense its not DBZ... i love the gen balls in 1.2...
but if u added 1.1 melee without so many changes with 1.2 stuff it would've been wicked... but it could have sucked too...

i think we can all agree that:
both 1.1 and 1.2, well both had their spot, both have qualities that are good, but both have major flaws i think people just have to think of something better.

Well all my questions have been answered, feel free to reply dont close this yet plp might have ideas

ps. the generic balls are fine theres nothing wrong with them

assisted with this topic and posts : (doesnt want to reveal himself) and [-1-]

 

[sub]

You all have some fairly twisted ideas about what skill is. All you could do in 1.1 was either flick your wrist around really fast and try to hit someone at close range or fire off beams. The teleport-assisted combonations took practice but for the most part it took those people a month only because they weren't used to the speed. People picked up 1.2 faster because it's slower pace, but if you're getting knocked around by new people it's your own fault, and noone can say otherwise. If you let them always hit you with advanced melee that's your fault for not moving. If they had hit you with simple melee it would have been the same thing, they'd still have hit you.

It's true 1.2 also involves swooping in circles but at least you can cut someone off with a side swoop or wall jump at the last minute and swoop back into someone, or try to bounce them off of objects, which was much more difficult in 1.1

What's so bad about people not being used to the speed? I think it's a good thing people have difficulty at first getting use to the speed. 1.2 is so slow that anyone can pick it up, which is one reason why a lot of people don't like it. Seems like a fair reason not to like it to me.

You could cut people off with a swoop when you're flying in circles in 1.1 also, it was just harder (theres nothing wrong with this, infact, I liked it harder). You could also just teleport out of that and try to get a back/side hit again, somthing that's annoying to try to do in 1.2 thanks to the tele delay. Once you start to tele away, they just follow you and you're royally screwed because you're only option is to keep teleporting. You eventually run out of ki and get ****ed. Happened to me plenty of times

You say lots of people used different techniques. Give me examples other than HOWing. "Hitting someone in the side" is not a technique. Basically you could melee, beam, or try and mix them up. There were no wall jumps, you couldn't throw, you couldn't do any gambling (advanced melee), no gen balls. You could just hit someone really hard.

There are tons more variations in 1.1 then there are in 1.2. I'll say a quote that I took out of your sig, I believe pcjoe said it. (He was talking about 1.1 melee) "The melee system right now is like tetris. It's so simple, yet it's simpleness makes it complex at the same time." It's not exact, but It had that general message. Now lets see. Techniques from 1.1

you could ki pounce (Where you teleport 2 or 3 times into the person swooping and it stops there swoop)

You could do this nifty little trick that I could never master. It didn't have a name and few new about it, but it was pritty cool. It was basicly a way of hitting somone from head on, you win the head on, but you have less ki then your opponent. It's kind of complicated, opty showed it to me and later a few other people tried to teach it to me too.

Wait for the last possible second, then teleport once, then swoop down and hit the guy. This is one of the only skills I found to still work in 1.2.

Stand still on the ground, wait for the guy to swoop at you, you then swoop in a stright line for less then a second parrarell to the ground, then do a complete turn around and he will be in the spot you were just in standing still. You then hit him. This was one of my fav.

Forever swooping. This was hard to master. It was a way of swooping forever by timing your swoop right before your current swoop ends.

Freefalling. This is also one of my fav. You start flying, in the middle of the swoop you stop, turn the swoop mode off and you start free falling at the same rate you were flying. This was a good way to save ki. You can still do it in 1.2, but the swoop speeds are so slow and it's so much harder to do.

Keep teleporting backwards until your opponents swoop stoped. Then go in for the kill >. I use to do this all the time when I first started playing. This one's also possible in 1.2, but like I said up top of this post, you get royally ****ed doing it now.

Freefalling while holding block. If they hit you, they usually stay still right there charging up thinking they got a hit. You can then go in for a hit.

Blocking on the ground. This was pritty annoying to the guy you were using it, but it was usefull.

Blocking next to the edge of a map. This is the same thing as from the ground, except your next to a wall.

I dunno if this one counts, but in 1.0, there was a way to always win a head on. All you had to do was when someone was swooping at you, teleport backwards once, then swoop foward at the other guy. I don't know why it always got you the hit, but whatever, doesn't matter I guess....

Zig zag swooping. I guess this would just be moving your mouse around while charging at your opponent, but I consider it a techniqe since it was good vs howers and not everyone did it. Oh well.

Then theres tele hits which are no longer practicle thanks to the tele delay.

The burning attack combination thingy. Shoot a burning attack at someone and they'll be blind, then charge at them for a hit. I use to love doing this .

And most if not all of those tricks have counters. For example, if somone starts blocking on the ground, throw ki blobs next to him and he'll be forced up.

All of thats just the stuff I can name off the top of my head. Yea, 1.1 had no skill/techiniqes :scared:. Not to mention I didn't even mention the combos you could do. Combos were my favorite part of 1.1, and there was what seemed like an endless amount of variations.

edit: Just know I wasnt good at 1.1. Someone better then me could list tons more of little tricks like that im sure.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

Actually I was the one that said that, and it wasn't in my sig, it was in someone else's. Free falling was and is used more as an exploit than anything, you just fall and wait for someone to swoop after you, then you have the ki and timing advantages. It's still possible just more exploitable this time around.

Even with the tele delay you can hit someone 3 or 4 times with mp_simplemelee 1, it's just a lot harder to cut them off and hit them the other direction. Like I said, it might come back in the future.

Throwing ki blasts at somebody on the ground isn't a technique, it's what you do.

Forever swooping was fun (?) but it held no real application. The odds were not that you were going to get hit the instant you stopped unless you were too close to start up swoop again.

The head on "trick" I'm thinking is still possible. Just wiggle your aim before you hit.

Ki 'pouncing' is presumably one of the reasons there is a delay now and swooping always wins over a teleport hit. It didn't make sense to be able to show up in front of somebody and hit them if they were charging at you.

You could cut off people in 1.1 but it always required you to have at least or higher than their sensitivity. People went around with sensitivities of 30 and higher and it got ridiculous, you'd just get into a swoop war where you slowly moved your mouse to the left or right and then jiggled it a couple of times hoping to hit the person. There is a little more complexity in side swooping in the middle of one of those circle-swooping battles in that you have to guess when they'll be at a point where side swooping will hit them as they continue moving in a circle. I pull this off every so often, and it's satisfying, although it is difficult.

You can do most of the same stuff in 1.2, the difference is there are more options in 1.2 . There are tactical ways to use the throw. People just dismiss it because new people overuse it but that's not a very good reason. Using advanced melee in a head on with someone you know is using simple melee to get in the damage you need to finish him off is something you have to think about, in the reverse, using simple melee against someone you know is using advanced melee when you can tell he doesn't have enough ki to sufficiently damage you is another. Going into a melee struggle with those people because you know you've got the sequences down better and you can simple melee coming out of that is another thing. Getting a double-simple melee head on at just the right angle to send your opponent into an object or a wall is another thing.

There are a lot of painful tricks you can use if you're fast enough too, like smashing someone into the ground several times in a row. It's easy to do it once or twice but people have trouble following through. Smashing someone back into a wall who is falling off of it in an attempt to screw up your accuracy (thinking you might only be prepared to hit him if he jumps so he falls instead). Even the choice between falling and jumping off of a wall to conserve ki or confuse an opponent requires some thought.

The ultimate anti-new person technique (which is incredibly difficult to plan for) is to get three hits off of them using simple melee. Simple vs. advanced, again when they run out of ki, then teleporting after them. Or, if they attack you first, then run out of ki and you knock them away, and you chase after them.


There are lots of things to learn in 1.2 . It's slower, but that doesn't mean there's less of anything involved. The tricks are just different, people have to relear them.

 

[-JLN-]

I agree with Boyster, you can do just as many things as in 1.1. In my opinion the slower speed lets you think more about what you actually want to do instead of actually trying to do it, which I think is a good thing.

 

[MysticUub]

Even with the tele delay you can hit someone 3 or 4 times with mp_simplemelee 1

i really would like to see this cause its total bs....a friend of mine and i turned this on and with the faster knockback speed and the damned tele delay u cant even do the two hit one u can with it turned off...and if u or someone u know can do it show a demo because as of right now i know there is no way to do it..cause all mp_simplemelee 1 does is take the option of adv melee out...and make the knockback faster...unless its different in 1.2.1


really...i think all the 1.2 fanboys are missing the point...1.1 melee was like othello (and this has been said many many times)...it takes a minute to learn, but a lifetime to master...and thats the WHOLE point...THATS what made the mod so great...the melee was simple enuff that ppl could just pick it up and play it...but in order to be truely good u had to work for it...and learn all these lil tricks and stuff like the ones that were mentioned above..

the major beef that most ppl that dont like 1.2 have with it...is the fact that they went from a game where virtually ANYTHING was possible and it took real skill to get good and not just HOW or whatever all the time to a game that is so limited because ppl are so afraid of getting hit with a "mouse-wheel-bound tele hit" instead of learning to keep moving and not sit still the whole time that it gets boring after about 20 mins...

u can ask anyone and i beleive that they will agree...that the thing that most set this game apart from the rest of the mods out there at first glance was its speed...when i first started playing back in 1.0 the first thing i noticed was "damn...this game is fast"...and i loved that..it was like nothing i had ever experienced...and thats just not there anymore...and mostly its because of all the waiting around u do for adv melee...even if u use simple melee...u sit around alot...u get 2 hits..then stop to shoot gen beam/ball/ki blobs...ur limited in speed with your teles...the swoop speed is decreased (altho i do understand the reasoning so its not that big a deal)

and y couldnt u cut a "swooping circle" short in 1.0/1.1?....not that its a big deal but u guys make it sound like it was impossible to do...

and honeslty...every one of those skills that was mentioned above took skill...i dont care what u ppl say...call it exploits...call it cheats or scripts...i dont really care...but ask yourself...could just anyone come into the game...start playing...and 10-15 mins later know how to do all that stuff?...no...thats y it took skill...its skill because u had to practice it to do it...it took me at least 6-8 months of playing untill i could land the 3 hit combos in 1.1 consistently...and to develope a STRATEGY (thats right i said the 's' word) to get ppl to fall for the tele up swoop down trick..that i could turn into a 3 hit combo 95% of the time...

imho...the only thing in 1.1 that needed to be thrown out...was the howing...thats it...everything else was perfect...if they would have made head ons more fair...added the new textures...added throw and wall jump...and the new maps...not only would the game been almost perfect gameplay wise...but it wouldnt have taken so long to be released either (im not trying to knock the teams hard work in any way shape or form here..its just a fact that it would have been WAY less coding than redoing a whole new melee system)...

and those are the reasons y ppl are so adament (sp?) when it comes to what was better..1.1 or 1.2...tru 1.1 had some major flaws...but when it boiled down to it...ppl would rather tolerate some flaws that a few spineless ppl would use to just get kills...than be limited by the game itself and not be able to do the things they want to do...


b4 i go...i think i wanna point this out...with the recent increase in 1.1 vs 1.2 poll threads...there are more ppl that are turning to the 1.1 side or not even playing at all side than b4...even ppl that i saw argue the fact that 1.2 roxored are saying that its becoming stale and boring now...and i dont ever remember that when 1.1 was released...

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

Even if you did know how to do all of that stuff. You couldn't just come in, and do it. There were a few people I knew in the game (including myself) who could watch a move then copy it. It took practice. In 1.1 if you left the game, and started playing a again in a month or so. Your skill in the game will most likely be gone. In 1.2 you can do the same thing, and your skill will be gone. The only people who actually agree with people who like 1.2 well mostly all of them are the Beta Testers, and some fanboys who are sitting around here. I am sick, and tired of people saying Ki pouncing is an exploit or some other thing. In DBZ if you teleported in front of someone who was swooping the person who was swooping stopped, and got hit, but wait in THIS GAME which is BASED from DBZ it was takin out because it was an "exploit" or so you say when they actually do this in the show =\.


I also would like to know in 1.2. Why in the hell is there such a long ass knockback recovery time when you are finishing up in adv melee or its a headon. Seriously this **** is ridiculous it takes so long to recover.


*to mysticuub* get on aim.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

Regardless of whether or not MysticUub chooses to believe it you can hit people multiple times with mp_simplemelee 1. ~{Ape}~Gohan has done it to me more than once. Sounds like you're the slower one in this scenario rather than the teleportation.

And yeah, it only took me 15 minutes to learn how to script, how exciting? Point and click for a free hit. Anyone who held an AWP in counter strike could bring the pain with a script as soon as someone stopped moving and could run away just as quickly. The only thing that took me longer than 15 minutes to pick up on was the combos involving multiple teleports. The rest was just improved reflexes over time, the same as reflexes involved in swooping in 1.2 .

You guys are talking about fanboys but I don't see how you're any different. You guys are obsessed with 1.1 and we just don't mind 1.2 . The fact is, plain and simple, there's more to do in 1.2 and more ways to go about it, even if one or two aspects of it are boring to people. That'll change in time. It already starts to change with the patch whether or not you've given up on a patch or not (It's a shame it's been delayed so much).

1.2 just isn't the same as 1.1, everyone has to acknowledge that. In the future there'll be a tighter link between the two betas with better melee but for right now it doesn't do any good to argue the same old arguements.

 

[SSJ Shin Carl]

You guys are talking about fanboys but I don't see how you're any different. You guys are obsessed with 1.1 and we just don't mind 1.2 . The fact is, plain and simple, there's more to do in 1.2 and more ways to go about it, even if one or two aspects of it are boring to people. That'll change in time. It already starts to change with the patch whether or not you've given up on a patch or not (It's a shame it's been delayed so much).

1.2 just isn't the same as 1.1, everyone has to acknowledge that. In the future there'll be a tighter link between the two betas with better melee but for right now it doesn't do any good to argue the same old arguements.

Who is this we? You, Saiyan Pride, noobs, and the rest of the beta testers?

1.2 took out all the smoothness of 1.1, and turned it into this Jagged unresponsive crap. You can say what you want 1.1 is utimately better than 1.2. I am not talking about 1.2 being slow. I am talking about the unresponsiveness.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

Time to stop being so full of yourself and realize there are members who were not here durring 1.1 who do not mind. If you haven't realized it's a different game now. They didn't make it to appeal to 1.1 gamers, they made it to appeal to gamers in general. It isn't time to change the focus to unresponsiveness either because everyone knows that's being worked on. Besides, the "unresponsiveness" is minimal for me. I do just fine.

 

[sub]

Time to stop being so full of yourself and realize there are members who were not here durring 1.1 who do not mind. If you haven't realized it's a different game now. They didn't make it to appeal to 1.1 gamers, they made it to appeal to gamers in general. It isn't time to change the focus to unresponsiveness either because everyone knows that's being worked on. Besides, the "unresponsiveness" is minimal for me. I do just fine.

There are members who weren't here during 1.1 who do not mind? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean if they were here for 1.1 that they would not like 1.2? If so, you're just helping to proove our point...

"they didn't make it to appeal to 1.1 gamers, they made it to appeal to gamers in general" I can see your point. Gamers in general today don't want a challenge, they want somthing easy with flashy graphics and dull gameplay. 1.2 fits right into that catogory with every other new game coming out (with the exception of maybe a few select games)

1.2 is infact a different game now... Thats the point, it's a different game which is not as good as the previous one... I don't see the point in you saying that it's a different game. Ofcourse it's a different game, thats why were *****ing on the forums. I personally don't even mind that it's different, I just mind that I don't find it as enjoyable and fun as the previous version. Hopefully the patch will fix this though :smile: .

About the unresponsiveness issues, 1.2 is responsive for me, its just not as responsive as 1.1 was. You say it's being worked on, but for me, I can't double tap a key on the keyboard faster then I can click a mouse twice. Nothing the team can do (No matter how amazing they are) is going to change that.

 

[Sonic the Vampire]

Proving what point -_- The only points that matter are these->

Not everybody has to like 1.2 .

Some people like 1.2 .

Some people dislike 1.2 .

The mod isn't going to die out because people don't like 1.2 .

You can't argue with any of those points because they're too open ended, and yet they are still poignant.

The team has heard all the arguments, nothing new has been argued in weeks. 1.1 still exists as a game, doesn't it? Sure you'd have to have somebody get up a server and name it but 1.1 isn't completely gone. The team changed 1.1 because they wanted to try something different, and they did, and they'll change it again in 1.3, and we've already said (I think I'm counting right here) a hundred thousand times that melee will change in 1.3 .


On the topic of why people don't like it the community is split into two parts-> People who don't like change and people who are new to the mod and find problems with it. Unfortunately for some of you the priority isn't going to 1.1 gamers, but instead to the new people that have found exploits or issues with the flow of the game. I don't think anyone expected 1.1 people to enjoy the slower speeds, it was just more practical to reduce them, and I don't think new players mind because they can't compare it to something else. All of the arguments of people saying "I don't like 1.2 because it isn't 1.1" all tend to get bunched together. They all sound the same to me and probably to the team too.

The truth is new people don't "Hate" 1.2 as much as the older players. That doesn't mean 1.1 was better than 1.2 it just means the older players might be having trouble letting go while newer players are actually learning the system rather than unlearning one.

 

[grrr]

I was here during 1.1, And I like 1.2 alot better. Sure, throwing sometimes gets annoying but hey teleing to the side and swooping and HOWing got annoying too. Why can't you guys just change instead of complaining?