Two FRUSTRATING GT Questions

[SailorAlea]

Just watch DBZ and you will see that he is just playing with Buu in Normal and he goes SSJ to show that he had no chance to win to begin with, he wasn't even trying, he just wanted Buu to become desparate so he will try to absorb him. SSJ2? He went SSJ and he said that he is Super Vegetto, and not - Accended Super Vegetto plus there isn't any lightning around him. If he went SSJ2 he could have killed Buu in a single ki blast, and by the way he did show Buu when he held a piece of his head that he can destroy his body easily, he fired a normal blast and that body part have been destroyed without posibility to regenerate. So a SSJ3 isn't even close for requirement to defeat Buu for Vegetto, as I said he could have done it in Normal form if he realy wanted to kill him, his goal was difrent, he wanted to save his friends. He just was that strong (btw in Normal he was a lot more stronger than Goku SSJ3). Goku SSJ3 even when he tryed his best coud not lend a punch on Gohan Buu, but Vegetto was just playing with Buu.

And your formula is almost close to 10x: 1 person + 2 person X 4 = 8x more power than individual (considering that two individuals have almost the same potential before fused). Although Goku had a little more potential than Vegeta so it's like 60% Goku and 40% Vegeta in this case.

So a fusion could have won that Fight in GT. If two childs can go SSJ3 when fused and that was just a game for them, than 2 adults could have been a serious chalenge for Ozaru Vegeta. I'm prety sure that Gotenks full potential by far exceeds Goku maximum potential.

Do I have to repeat my previous post?

It's shown several times that whenever a saiya-jin stops fighting for a long time, they lose their battle sense, and most of their power.

In the final tournament of Z, Pan, as a toddler, beat Goten and Trunks, did she not?

They show how weak Gohan became after beating Cell, and not training for 7 years.

Goten and Trunks didn't train from the time Buu was defeated, to the time they had the final budokai in Z, to the time GT started. They were weak, and no longer had any sense of battle. Them fusing together wouldn't have proved a useful force against anybody.

 

[Ravendust]

Yeah, all Goten and Trunks were good for at the end of Z/Start of GT was giving their energy to Goku like against Ougon-Oozaru Baby-Vegeta (OOBV) and Syn Shenron. Gotenks would have probably been as strong as Goku's normal form, not nearly enough to defeat OOBV.

 

[Evgenij]

Their energy was enough to regenerate full power of SSJ4 , that will you give you something to think about

 

[Ravendust]

SSJ Gohan+SSJ Goten+SSJ Trunks+Pan, not just Goten and Trunks, besides the four of them gave all their energy to 'refill' Goku, after which they collapsed.

 

[Jesus]

An actual plothole is Goku killing Frieza and Cell in the afterlife.

As everyone knows, HFIL in the Toei version is Hell, but in the dub they made HFIL and Hell two seperate places, HFIL is still shown as 'The Home For Infinite Losers' where power doesn't grow and they sit around on yellow rocks looking into pools of blood and watching TV. Hell is red rocks, fire, brimstone, lava and stuff, and there are multiple layers of Hell (just like in the Bible), the last one being the Icy one (again, bible) It's here that Goku kills Frieza and Cell, who are already dead. As explicitly stated in Dragonball Z's final few episodes, if you die when dead you vanish from existence, but later on we see Cell and Frieza tied up in a cage, replete with halos.

And Evgenji i'd get your facts straight, Goku learned SSJ3 because he discovered it while training, Vegeta didn't see SSJ3 until Kid Buu had presented himself at the Supreme Kai's planet, so Vegetto couldn't have known how to do it.

firstly, he didnt kill them, he just froze them with that ice stuff which was meant to torture the dead but wouldnt work on goku as he was still alive, and hot enough to melt the ice.

second, since goku clearly stated "hercule knows how to fight, but his lack of Ki knowledge would be damaging..." when he is trying to think of who to fuse with. this demonstrates that its not a lack of knowledge that would STOP something, but may confuse the outcome... and since vegetto retained both goku AND vegeta's memories, its more than possable that he knew how to do it, but just didnt need to.

 

[Evgenij]

So those 4 slakers are actulay equal to Goku SSJ4, remember that he was almost all out of power that time Well let's say that Gohan did like 45% of the charge because he is the strongest one, Goten and Trunks get about 25% each and Pan around 5%, because she is not even a super Sayain. That means that Goten + Trunks = 50% of SSJ4 energy charge, if they fuse they will get like 50% x 3 or x4 = wich is around 200% SSJ4 energy charge This is just a simple logic and ariphmetics. So a fusion maximum potential will still be like 2x stronger than Goku SSJ4 if you use a common sense So what will you say Sailor Alea? If 4 of them had enough power to recharge SSJ4 goku, that means that their potential is not weak at all.

I know that there is a mistake in power calculation in DBGT, perhaps you are right that Gotenks at that time is weaker than SSJ4 Goku and if that is true that means there is a Big Plot Hole in Power level in DBGT, because if they realy are that weak they would not been able to recharge a full power of a SSJ4. Iether Gotenks is stronger than SSJ4 or he don't have enough power to recharge him - one of those 2 is a mistake in a plot. But still i would say Gotenks will own Goku any day

 

[Ravendust]

Energy and Strength are different, think of it as ki and powerlevel. Gotenks needed a higher powerlevel to stand up to OOBV. Goku had enough powerlevel at SSJ4 but little energy, Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Pan had about 70%-90% energy left, which is enough. Goku's powerlevel didn't increase when they charged him, but his ki was restored to normal.

firstly, he didnt kill them, he just froze them with that ice stuff which was meant to torture the dead but wouldnt work on goku as he was still alive, and hot enough to melt the ice

Yes and then he knocked over the frozen bodies and they shattered. When you're broken into hundreds of pieces you tend to die.

 

[Jesus]

cell wouldnt have died from that, as he can regenerate (regardless of power being taken from hell) and frieza, i dunno if he would have died, baring in mind he survived havin limbs cut off ANd being cut in half AND being blown up with a planet....

 

[SailorAlea]

So those 4 slakers are actulay equal to Goku SSJ4, remember that he was almost all out of power that time Well let's say that Gohan did like 45% of the charge because he is the strongest one, Goten and Trunks get about 25% each and Pan around 5%, because she is not even a super Sayain. That means that Goten + Trunks = 50% of SSJ4 energy charge, if they fuse they will get like 50% x 3 or x4 = wich is around 200% SSJ4 energy charge This is just a simple logic and ariphmetics. So a fusion maximum potential will still be like 2x stronger than Goku SSJ4 if you use a common sense So what will you say Sailor Alea? If 4 of them had enough power to recharge SSJ4 goku, that means that their potential is not weak at all.

I know that there is a mistake in power calculation in DBGT, perhaps you are right that Gotenks at that time is weaker than SSJ4 Goku and if that is true that means there is a Big Plot Hole in Power level in DBGT, because if they realy are that weak they would not been able to recharge a full power of a SSJ4. Iether Gotenks is stronger than SSJ4 or he don't have enough power to recharge him - one of those 2 is a mistake in a plot. But still i would say Gotenks will own Goku any day

You know what makes your entire argument complete, and utter garbage?

Who was it that killed Kid Buu? Goku, in SSJ3 form. Where was Gotenks? Oh! Dead! In the final movie, movie 13, with Tapion--who defeated Hildegarn? Oh.. what's that? SSJ3 Gotenks got his ass kicked, and it was SSJ3 Goku that saved the day? How about that.

They lacked the fighting experience even if they had the power to beat Kid Buu.

They lost the power, AND the fighting experience by not fighting for over a decade. "SSJ" is not a definite power level, each of the saiya-jin had a different power when they went SSJ for the first time. SSJ Goten, not even knowing how to fly or use energy--do you think he could've beat Frieza? No, he wouldn't have been able to.

Two very weak saiya-jin who hadn't trained or fought in 15 years, even if fused, wouldn't be able to put up ANY kind of fight against Bebi Bejita, who had been training his entire life, and grown immensely more powerful.

I'm sorry, but if you disagree--you're just stupid.

 

[Ravendust]

frieza, i dunno if he would have died, baring in mind he survived havin limbs cut off ANd being cut in half AND being blown up with a planet....

Cell I can understand as he can regen from a single cell (though the rules in Hell may not allow it) but your argument for Frieza is pure idiocy,

1) He got cut up by Trunks and died (Trunks Saga), did he survive? No. I don't care if it's Frieza, Piccolo, Gogeta or anybody, unless you can restore yourself from a single cell as only Cell can, you die. Having your body broken into thousands of pieces is worse than being cut up into meaty chunks. He died.

2) Assuming he didn't die, how did his body magically come back together? If he survived as frozen gibs then he would still be frozen gibs. His body was in one piece (without a scratch) when he was tied up. Unless he was secretly Humpty Dumpty, it's a plot hole.

 

[-Origin]

I'm sorry, but if you disagree--you're just stupid.

ahaha that made me laugh so hard :laff:

 

[nZ]

You know what makes your entire argument complete, and utter garbage?

Who was it that killed Kid Buu? Goku, in SSJ3 form. Where was Gotenks? Oh! Dead! In the final movie, movie 13, with Tapion--who defeated Hildegarn? Oh.. what's that? SSJ3 Gotenks got his ass kicked, and it was SSJ3 Goku that saved the day? How about that.

They lacked the fighting experience even if they had the power to beat Kid Buu.

They lost the power, AND the fighting experience by not fighting for over a decade. "SSJ" is not a definite power level, each of the saiya-jin had a different power when they went SSJ for the first time. SSJ Goten, not even knowing how to fly or use energy--do you think he could've beat Frieza? No, he wouldn't have been able to.

Two very weak saiya-jin who hadn't trained or fought in 15 years, even if fused, wouldn't be able to put up ANY kind of fight against Bebi Bejita, who had been training his entire life, and grown immensely more powerful.

I'm sorry, but if you disagree--you're just stupid.

Erm one thing Sailor the movies (in terms of ki and powerlevels) have aboslutely no conception with the acutal z/gt , this is proven in the Brolly movies. In the first one it is suppose to be the time b4 the cell games start n goku is evenly matched up to cell because of the HTC training. And if brolly is suppose to be USSJ in the movies then he sure is one hell of a fast n strong USSJ compared when trunks became USSJ and fought cell n lost.
He completely kicks the hell out of Trunks, Vegeta , Goku gohan etc , untill they all give their power to goku which would probably be way more than needed to beat cell anyway!
In the second movie its the time b4 the world tournament (buu saga) n gohan who 'apparently' can go up to SSJ2 gets his ass whipped by USSJ brolly :S then they need gohan gotenks and gokus kamehamehas to beat him and they still struggled with it anyway!
Im not saying i disagree with you but i just wanted to point out this one thing, n plus kid buu by killed by gokus spirit bomb? tht makes alot of difference.

 

[Ravendust]

The Movies do not effect the storyline of the series, but they do have a rough place in the general timeline. Broly goes LSSJ (legendary) not USSJ, notice how he doubles in size? The lime tint of his golden ki? The eyes becoming all white? USSJ may lose speed but LSSJ certainly doesn't. LSSJ seems to be about equal to SSJ2 but with the big size difference. He also had 10,000PL at birth, he was near-equally matched with Goku (both in normal state) in Movie 08 and then wiped the floor with everyone when he ascended.

To reiterate:

SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks in GT
so therefore SSJ4 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks.

 

[Evgenij]

I'm sorry, but if you disagree--you're just stupid

I won't disagre It won't change anything, even if I show you the facts you are still going to think that you are right. Believe what you want

 

[SailorAlea]

Erm one thing Sailor the movies (in terms of ki and powerlevels) have aboslutely no conception with the acutal z/gt , this is proven in the Brolly movies. In the first one it is suppose to be the time b4 the cell games start n goku is evenly matched up to cell because of the HTC training. And if brolly is suppose to be USSJ in the movies then he sure is one hell of a fast n strong USSJ compared when trunks became USSJ and fought cell n lost.
He completely kicks the hell out of Trunks, Vegeta , Goku gohan etc , untill they all give their power to goku which would probably be way more than needed to beat cell anyway!
In the second movie its the time b4 the world tournament (buu saga) n gohan who 'apparently' can go up to SSJ2 gets his ass whipped by USSJ brolly :S then they need gohan gotenks and gokus kamehamehas to beat him and they still struggled with it anyway!
Im not saying i disagree with you but i just wanted to point out this one thing, n plus kid buu by killed by gokus spirit bomb? tht makes alot of difference.

Erm Nz, one thing GT (in terms of everything) has absolutely no relevance when it comes to Z. It's animated fanfiction. "USSJ" is a 100% Fan-Made Term. They refer to him as the 'legendary' (densetsu) saiya-jin.

The numerous plotholes of the movies doesn't suggest that the obvious powerscales between people who stop training and those who continue, even while fused, differ tremendously.

As for Evenij, I'd have to simply suggest improving your ability to read. 4-5 people, 4 of which can become super saiya-jin, being able to replenish SSJ4 Goku's ki does not suggest that they are "25% each of SSJ4's power." GT is crappily written, (like some posts which seem to frequent this thread) and follows no storyline to speak of. The animation studio could've had Gohan's childhood friend, the Dinosaur which he chased around, restore Goku's energy and it wouldn't have made a difference. It was an excuse to show that the other characters weren't completely irrelevant. You have no "facts" to show me because there aren't any.

All discussion of GT really should be banned on these boards.

 

[Jesus]

The Movies do not effect the storyline of the series, but they do have a rough place in the general timeline. Broly goes LSSJ (legendary) not USSJ, notice how he doubles in size? The lime tint of his golden ki? The eyes becoming all white? USSJ may lose speed but LSSJ certainly doesn't. LSSJ seems to be about equal to SSJ2 but with the big size difference. He also had 10,000PL at birth, he was near-equally matched with Goku (both in normal state) in Movie 08 and then wiped the floor with everyone when he ascended.

To reiterate:

SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks in GT
so therefore SSJ4 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks.

actually, toriyama himself said that there is no such level as legendary, its just the name he was given because of his power. the fact he was as strong at birth as most adults led them to believe he was the saiyan of legend, which he may or may not have been, however, legendary is NOT a power level. he DOES ascend to USSJ or to make sure alea doesnt rape me, ascended saiyan(altho, if vegeta was ascended to above super saiyan, and trunks ascended further...what DO you call that??), if you notice there was a point were trunks eyes went pure white, and his aura got insanely massive against cell. the only difference is the speed. maybe brolly has powered up like this so much before that he has gotten used to it? i mean, hes had his whole life being that powerful


and besides, the argument about GT....i think its all rubbish, GT WAS crapply written, i agree with alea on this, i mean...its almost as if no other characters exist, and the whole storyline of Z was completely irrellivent... a whole 296 (right?) eppisodes of character building, all to throw the characters out of the window for 9/10 of the next series....great work guys

 

[Evgenij]

Sailor Alea it looks like there is only two Opinions - Your's and incorrect one

 

[SailorAlea]

Not "opinions," but standpoints. Yes, that would be correct.

 

[Jesus]

hehehehehe

 

[RageWithin]

one thing about vegito not going into super sayin three...he couldn't because only goku had the knowledge to go into super sayian 3...vegeta didnt know how to, so they could only go as far as super sayian 2.

::EDIT:: ****, it was already answerd why vegito couldnt go super sayian 3 heh.....