Swoop Speed Solutions

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This is a response to the affirmed result of increased swooping speeds causing an incredible decline in connecting hits. I'd like to brainstorm here what alternative solutions may exist. If traditional 'swoop swarm' combat could only exist in a Non-Turbo state, then what happens to Turbo? As a response, I re-submit my layout for Close Combat to be discussed, along with various alternative solutions. I don't want to limit this discussion to only my ideas, but I will propose mine first.

Close Combat Layout:
  • Charged Turbo disables Combo Melee and prevents it from being used by and against the player.
    Basic Melee, Ki Attacks, and Smash & Grab are the only abilities which may be used.

  • Turbo increases Swoop speed, but not Flying speed
    CT increases Flying speed, but not Swoop speed
    (Swoop Speed, Fly Speed)
    SSJ1 NT = 200 SS, 40 FS
    SSJ1 T = 300 SS, 40 FS
    SSJ1 CT = 300 SS, 60 FS​
  • CT shortens teleport distance. Long distance teleports are best for escaping or closing distance, but because fast swoops are superior in closing distances, it becomes unnecessary.
    Short Teleports make it easy to pivot around blocks, thus making it more useful up close. Traditionally the opponent had a very difficult time getting around a good blocker because the combat was so linear and spaced out. This would fix that.​

The benefit of all this is that Manual combos with Basic Melee can be done removing Auto-Sequencing from the gameplay temporarily. Players will have more freedom over the flow of a 3D combat. I know I'm not the only one who would enjoy this.

Ultimately I suggest this as a response because Flying speed can be increased where it enhances gameplay, whereas Swoop speed increased seems to destroy it. Flying has a hidden aspect of dodging head-ons, which will be present in 1.3. CT can counter head-ons, but because of the drain, it will be limited in its use. It syncs well with the good and the bad.

Other alternatives could be done where actually landing the hit deals significantly more damage, but unless strategy could be developed around that model, the game would be a bunch of misdirected flying. I only see Turbo being useful for surprise attacks, fighting with Ki attacks, traveling/escaping, or Teleport fighting (only CT shortens teleports).

If Stamina damage was a function of Swoop Speed, it would give it a greater purpose. This would be the best solution imo.

Please comment on whether you like the idea and would consider using it in game. Poke as many holes in it as you'd like and tell me how pointless it is. I'd just like to get at least one OPEN discussion rolling on this, not a conclusive one, and I'd prefer not to be the dictator of it.
 
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Combo melee is neither a breather nor does it slow down the gamepace.

Actually we are making it a fairly important part of the game. Especially if you want to use the SAM bar.
 
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Would you consider this a bad thing if Combo Melee was removed temporarily from the gameplay to support other aspects of it?

I think you mentioned that knockbacks were necessary for the result of each combat sequence so moves couldn't be spammed.
Is this strictly in relation to Combo Melee?
 
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Combo melee ends with a knockback in a direction of your choosing.... it doesn't slow down gameplay at all.
 
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Alright allow me to edit out the opinions I have on Combo Melee so we can focus more on what role Turbo/Charged Turbo will play in melee. Removing Combo Melee is just one suggestion for a flowing Close Combat layout.
 
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There is no close combat.

Yes combo melee gives the impression of close combat. But thats not its primary point.

Your suggestion would make charged turbo preety useless IMO.

1.) You need to charge it. So you are a stationary target.
2.) You said it doesnt increase swoop speed and it shortens the teleports. Going with that and adding the faster speeds than in 1.2 youll be a sitting duck with no way to run.
3.) Along with number 2 charged turbo while giving you a bigger PL boost it allso has a heavier KI drain. So if the attacker chose to use normal turbo he would easilly out manever, outsprint and outlast the guy using charged turbo cause his KI would last longer.
 
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There is no close combat.

Yes combo melee gives the impression of close combat. But thats not its primary point.

Your suggestion would make charged turbo preety useless IMO.

1.) You need to charge it. So you are a stationary target.

2.) You said it doesnt increase swoop speed and it shortens the teleports. Going with that and adding the faster speeds than in 1.2 youll be a sitting duck with no way to run.

3.) Along with number 2 charged turbo while giving you a bigger PL boost it allso has a heavier KI drain. So if the attacker chose to use normal turbo he would easilly out manever, outsprint and outlast the guy using charged turbo cause his KI would last longer.
1. What if the SAM bar instantly boosted Turbo? Otherwise, you'd have to Charge it when you have the advantage.

2. Yeah it'd only be best to use when you want to push a fight onto the other player. It minimizes your defensive options to optimize your offensive options.

3. You could lower the Ki drain a tad. If he uses normal Turbo, he'll be trying to head-on the other player, since the swoop speed is ridiculous to control. The person using Charged Turbo can simply dodge with flying until he recharges. When he recharges, you pounce on him. Maybe it WOULD be better to increase the swoop speed for CT as well.

Overall it'd be best against a low stamina player who can't use Turbo. But against a player with Turbo, flying can dodge his swoop attacks easier and it's more Ki conservative than swooping.

I can prove that last point. Play against someone who is a transformed Krillin, and dodge him with Turbo. You won't have any problems. You'll never get hit.
 
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Who ever said the swoop speed was redicolous to controll. Its faster than in 1.2 but its not redicolous. Or do you say 1.1s controlls were redicolous becasue of the swoop speed?
 
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It's ridiculously difficult to hit the other player while moving at very fast swoop speeds. That's what I'm under the impression of.
 
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THE MOST AMAZING THING THEY COULD EVER DO WITH SWOOP IS ALLOW YOU TO JUST HOLD DOWN A DIRECTIONAL KEY, AND SWOOP IN THAT DIRECTION (NORMAL SPEED) FOR AS LONG AS YOU'RE HOLDING DOWN THE KEY. YOU'D GET PEOPLE WHO WOULD JUST PLAY THE GAME TO SWOOP AROUND, USING THEIR MOUSE AS A CELESTIAL GUIDE.

NO COST
NO DOUBLE-TAP
UNLIMITED SWOOPING

BUT, THE CHARGE SWOOP COULD WORK THROUGH A DOUBLE-TAP INITIATOR...

 
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THE MOST AMAZING THING THEY COULD EVER DO WITH SWOOP IS ALLOW YOU TO JUST HOLD DOWN A DIRECTIONAL KEY, AND SWOOP IN THAT DIRECTION (NORMAL SPEED) FOR AS LONG AS YOU'RE HOLDING DOWN THE KEY. YOU'D GET PEOPLE WHO WOULD JUST PLAY THE GAME TO SWOOP AROUND, USING THEIR MOUSE AS A CELESTIAL GUIDE.

NO COST
NO DOUBLE-TAP
UNLIMITED SWOOPING

BUT, THE CHARGE SWOOP COULD WORK THROUGH A DOUBLE-TAP INITIATOR...

... AND... AND... AND... AND...
 
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LOL, some people might think that you're talking about Terrorists (not Turbo) and Counter-Terrorists (not Charged Turbo) from CS.
 
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Synth, what the hell? You picked the perfect tag, that's for sure. It perfectly describes the rage in which you type without thinking. Maybe read a little before you type so you know what to type about next time. When I said open discussion, I didn't mean type in caps about how great swoop is or post pictures of twintties. Though I don't mind the later so much. ^_^

Anyway... might as well close this one off if nobody wants to say anything meaningful. I can't expect to walk into a forest and talk to the animals can I? Yeah... you animals you.
 
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I didn't post the second picture of the twins, that post is clearly spam.

And, considering this is a suggestion thread... my post was clearly aimed at the development team, not your credibility.

I've been on this forum for a long time (8 years) and I've seen about 3 billion different suggestions for swooping.

The only TRUE fix for swooping is making it UNLIMITED!!!

As of right now, it's basically a way to dodge till you happen to run into another player.

IMO
 
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I didn't post the second picture of the twins, that post is clearly spam.

And, considering this is a suggestion thread... my post was clearly aimed at the development team, not your credibility.

I've been on this forum for a long time (8 years) and I've seen about 3 billion different suggestions for swooping.

The only TRUE fix for swooping is making it UNLIMITED!!!

As of right now, it's basically a way to dodge till you happen to run into another player.

IMO
Alright well sorry for putting you on the spot. I guess I figured the caps were either not taking me seriously or being uninformed. I'm glad you've read a lot of suggestions about swooping. You'll probably have a lot to talk about here then.

I'm assuming you're saying that swooping to dodge until you randomly hit is a bad thing. Why would you want it to be unlimited? I'd think your solution would be opposite, like putting limitations on it.

Anyway I'm pretty sure my post hasn't really been suggested by other people since I'm encouraging something that it seems every single person doesn't care to talk about or is against developing it. I've been trying to encourage open discussions on it for a few months now with nobody taking much interest in it.

I'm saying a solution to fast swoop speeds would be "promoting" a combat that doesn't rely on swoop. It's not creating one, because it already exists. You tweak some values and put minor limitations in place only on Charged Turbo. It's meant for hardcore melee players who don't like randomly swoop hitting and using Ki attacks. I liked the freedom of control over a non-sequenced combat, even if it meshes perfectly with the game. I thought some good perks would be to make it diminish the opponent's stamina more quickly and make it difficult for the opponent to charge SAM. If that's unbalanced, make it eye for an eye, so both drain stamina and the attacker doesn't gain any SAM.

I don't understand the argument that it's not planned, it conflicts with current gameplay, and it'd take too much work. All of that just says to me... "We like our way better, end of story." It'd be nice if SOMEONE would be a little more open-minded with this and try to help develop it before saying it won't fly.
 
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Well right now every aspect of melee is there for an exact reason. While there is no balancing meaning no numbers and that it all makes a full cyrcle.especially in the way melee is ment to counter one another.

Adding a fourth option would preety much turn the entire thing upside down. Especially since your idea of close combat would end up useless against anyone using swoop.
 
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Well right now every aspect of melee is there for an exact reason. While there is no balancing meaning no numbers and that it all makes a full cyrcle.especially in the way melee is ment to counter one another.

Adding a fourth option would preety much turn the entire thing upside down. Especially since your idea of close combat would end up useless against anyone using swoop.
This is true. And with Combo Melee being a new thing and all, it probably fills those shoes pretty well.

I wouldn't underestimate how good/bad it'd be against swoop though. With enough flying speed, you can dodge swoops very easily, especially if they're fast head-ons. That leaves time to charge it in between.

I mean it'd really be best against a stamina-less person for the most part... the more I talk to you the more I understand what you're talking about though. Until I see what's going on myself, I'll just sit on this idea for awhile.
 
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Well thats just it. Anything works well on someone who has no stamina. But lets just compare the 2 moes in the general movement system.

Swoop:
- Teleport: Longer
- Speed: Faster
- Maneverability: Medium
- Danger to self: Little

Charged Turbo:
- Teleport: Shorter
- Speed: Slower than swoop
- Maneverability: Preety good
- Danger to self: Medium

The danger to self being medium on charged turbo is because of the speed decrease. While it does give better maneverability it does have a problem with coun terattacks. Due to the bigger movement restraints you are more prone to counter attacks. Not to mention its easier to anglehit a slow moving target than a fast moving one.

In other words while it does make the fight closer in range it has a fatal flaw. And that flaw is swoop. This system would work as standalone along with a different movement system. But due to the swoop movement system you become a preety easy target to both swoop and especially beams. You cant even run away from the blast radius effectively.

Your idea would require a total overhaul of the entire movement system in order to be usefull outside a 1 on 1 fight. But that overhaul would preety much mean elimination of melee integrated into swoop.
 

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