Swoop/dash/gliding Idea's

[Skiwan]

Who's to say it wont be good for advanced melee in the new version? The only reason advanced melee wasnt favoured in 1.2 was because it was ddr, too simple, uneffective and took too long, maybe the new version will be a good alternative to simple melee. Simple melee should not be nerfed before we know for sure how effective the new advanced melee is, its backwards, you don't regress one area of the game which appeals to the majority of the fanbase to make the other area's more effective, you bring everything on par with that and you have yourself a much more fun game.

This is about movement anyway, since you're constantly trying to avoid attacks (all kinds, from prepunching to throwing to simple melee to beams) It makes sense that movement needs to be diverse and flexible, its no use having a stiff and rigid system, it only means all other area's are going to cause problems. I'd also like to add, I know you are a keen beam user, but 1.3 will have new features to make beams more useful (and yes, i do mean lock on) so even beams are being improved too.

The movement system, which is the bread and butter of esf, no matter if you favour advanced melee, simple melee or beams, it is the most crucial part.

 

[Phobius]

By gliding being removed your going to have to work more on ki control and how you spend your ki and thats something I like. Gliding around the map was always stupid to me and caused people to learn how to get better to quick if you ask me. I personally hate gliding and prefer more ki management because it brings more of quick decision thinking to the game on how you spend your ki and such.

I will also state this people who played 1.2 and say their good are afraid of seeing new things and want to cling onto the past. Doing such its hard to progress into further developing of any new features when people want stuff like gliding, swoop teleporting and such reverting back to 1.2.X. You mine as well call it 1.2.4 because by keeping in such exploits/features thats all its going to be.

You guys talk about free form and movement well with dashing you can't get anymore free form then that. You can instantly control which way you want to go in a blink of an eye you could be dashing forward hit "S" which you dash down then hit "W" to dash forward till your under the enemy and then hit "space" and walla you can attack your enemy from below if he/she is standing still but my point is the free form is now with dashing.

This recent patch which you have to hold down your movement keys in order to swoop is dumb to me. Trying to chain swoop is a pain in the ass and I revert to dashing because the simplicity of chain swooping is now gone.

 

[Skiwan]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way, its not about the ki management, its not about who was good in previous versions and who wasnt, its about how much freedom is in the game. Look at any game with long longevity, and you will see how diverse and free of choice it is, from civilization II to WoW, they all give you an ability to play well using your own way of thinking. There just is no room for movement adaptation in 1.3, it's all purely routine, DDR - these are your limits. It's easy. Some things are intentionally being favoured while others are being lost.

I mean are my suggestions that damaging to the current system? I dont think so, all I've done is leave room for people to expand upon and build upon, which i dearly miss from the old 1.1 days, where people invented their own techniques. Every version seems to be more like a tenkaichi/budokai game, once you know the routine its easy, it becomes boring and it isnt a challenge.

Of course these are the age old arguements here, and since It's been argued like this forever on these forums, so I expect the same kinda retorts as already argued. I'm just saying, esf is digging itself a grave here, the new version gets boring, there's even less exploration than the last version, and the last version has so many routines It's like watching a film you've seen 20 times before and you know the script of by heart. I want difference, I want change, but i dont want to be told Im unable to adapt just because I want to be able to explore the game more deeply.

Regardless, this isnt even about my suggestions anymore, It's about, who thinks that esf can do no wrong. I want some real comments on my suggestions, not just highlighting that gliding used to be in the previous version, because it seems to me we're on both sides of a fence, some of us like it, some of us dont, I hate beaming, I dont say "omg get rid of beams, the 1 hit killness r teh ghey!" now do I? Gliding as I've described it isnt ment to be like how it was in 1.2 anyway, its ment to be different, you travel on a distance according to the movement choice you made (swoop - dash) the momentum carries you pretty much in a straight line and slows with time, like if If i was driving a car and i turned the engine off.

 

[Mountain Dewd]

But the fact is, while gliding did make ki much easier to manage, this enabled fighting to be more flexible and enjoyable, since keeping ontop of your ki was something you could do subconciously, rather than being somewhat of a chore, still it wasnt like ki management was eliminated, in base form its still very easy to run out of ki.

Its true gliding widened the skill gap between players, but it was incredibly rewarding to master a technique to the point that it was second nature to do so, the people that didnt like it dug their heels in, and stuck to simple swooping and beams, and those players couldnt really match up to the gliding players with good ki management.

So far, the new system is catering to the people who played in a boring, repetitive manner.

People need to stop dismissing complaints from players about the new system as them complaining because they wont be as good in 1.3.

You show them system that is flexible, fun, rewarding and allows people to determine and hone their own style of play, and they will be more than willing to jump over.

But right now with the restrictions placed on movement, the game has been dumbed down, we've got some great new features, but lost what made the game so great in the first place.

One step forward, two steps back.

 

[Phobius]

You say you want change but the one key component to esf which is melee has not been developed yet. Only the designers/creators of the new melee system will know exactly which direction ESF is going to take. Who knows what this new melee system is going to bring to the table. Anyways back to the topic.

I edited my post when you finished posting yours so you might have missed somethings I added so I'll re quote myself.

You guys talk about free form and movement well with dashing you can't get anymore free form then that. You can instantly control which way you want to go in a blink of an eye you could be dashing forward hit "S" which you dash down then hit "W" to dash forward till your under the enemy and then hit "space" and walla you can attack your enemy from below if he/she is standing still but my point is the free form is now with dashing.

Also ESF is all about ki management, if you can't manage your ki well then your out of a luck because someone who can will wipe you off the map. When your low on ki and need to power up and someone who is controlling their ki better then you will hit you when your recharging its that simple. So thus by leaving out gliding/drifting leads you to have to move around the map either by swoop which is basically the idea to get around the map now or dash which is more free form then swoop/gliding/drifting could ever be.

You guys say its dumb down I say its just more simple for users to get into which is the whole key of a mod for users to jump in learn what they need and decide how their going to play the game and such. Unless someone who is an average player teaches you about gliding/drifting then you know what new players are going to be crap out of luck until someone decides to teach them.

Now this can be debated to the cows come home everyone has their opinion on what should be in and out and my opinion is holding down to swoop, gliding/etc.. should be removed. I've stated my points and if I keep posting I will just be repeating myself over and over because those are my statements and I stick with them. So this is my final post from me on this topic.

 

[Skiwan]

I was in the meetings that the melee discussion took place, I had my say, but everyone was so insistent of nerfing movement so we have to use advanced melee. I do know the development decisions that were made. DJ Ready already went on strike because of the decisions made.

Where did i suggest changing dash other than adding gliding as an option so you can teleport/manoeuvre accordingly if so desired? I like being able to terminate my movement when I desire, quick thinking only gets you so far. It doesnt matter if you can go up down left right if you know that your opponent will hit you because he's teleporting towards you with no delay.

As for managing ki, I couldn't care less in the new version, I do it just as well subconsciously as i did in the last, like I said, that isnt the problem here, It's not just a way of conserving ki, its a matter of being able to develop new techniques (if you hadn't noticed, droping out of fly to teleport actually used more ki than swooping alone.. or dash for that matter)

btw, if it was turned into a feature, we'd just put it in the manual/tutorial... right?

 

[john_volkov]

You say you want change but the one key component to esf which is melee has not been developed yet. Only the designers/creators of the new melee system will know exactly which direction ESF is going to take. Who knows what this new melee system is going to bring to the table. Anyways back to the topic.

I edited my post when you finished posting yours so you might have missed somethings I added so I'll re quote myself.


Also ESF is all about ki management, if you can't manage your ki well then your out of a luck because someone who can will wipe you off the map. When your low on ki and need to power up and someone who is controlling their ki better then you will hit you when your recharging its that simple. So thus by leaving out gliding/drifting leads you to have to move around the map either by swoop which is basically the idea to get around the map now or dash which is more free form then swoop/gliding/drifting could ever be.

You guys say its dumb down I say its just more simple for users to get into which is the whole key of a mod for users to jump in learn what they need and decide how their going to play the game and such. Unless someone who is an average player teaches you about gliding/drifting then you know what new players are going to be crap out of luck until someone decides to teach them.

Now this can be debated to the cows come home everyone has their opinion on what should be in and out and my opinion is holding down to swoop, gliding/etc.. should be removed. I've stated my points and if I keep posting I will just be repeating myself over and over because those are my statements and I stick with them. So this is my final post from me on this topic.

I am 100% whit you Phobius I could put it beter my self

 

[Mountain Dewd]

Its always going to be tough to combine two different systems of attacking into a balanced game.

The real issue is that in order to force people to use an aspect of the game that didnt work last time, they are essentially ruining what did work last time.

 

[ssj2gohanmajin]

cool idea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that's more dbz kind

 

[Zeonix]

You say you want change but the one key component to esf which is melee has not been developed yet. Only the designers/creators of the new melee system will know exactly which direction ESF is going to take. Who knows what this new melee system is going to bring to the table. Anyways back to the topic.

I edited my post when you finished posting yours so you might have missed somethings I added so I'll re quote myself.


Also ESF is all about ki management, if you can't manage your ki well then your out of a luck because someone who can will wipe you off the map. When your low on ki and need to power up and someone who is controlling their ki better then you will hit you when your recharging its that simple. So thus by leaving out gliding/drifting leads you to have to move around the map either by swoop which is basically the idea to get around the map now or dash which is more free form then swoop/gliding/drifting could ever be.

You guys say its dumb down I say its just more simple for users to get into which is the whole key of a mod for users to jump in learn what they need and decide how their going to play the game and such. Unless someone who is an average player teaches you about gliding/drifting then you know what new players are going to be crap out of luck until someone decides to teach them.

Now this can be debated to the cows come home everyone has their opinion on what should be in and out and my opinion is holding down to swoop, gliding/etc.. should be removed. I've stated my points and if I keep posting I will just be repeating myself over and over because those are my statements and I stick with them. So this is my final post from me on this topic.

Yes, they are the only people who know how advanced melee will turn out. You don't see a problem with that? We have to wait and be told, "It's going to be amazing! Trust us! Forget about 1.2! Trust us! Forget that we need to make simple melee useless in order to get people to use the new melee system! Trust us!"

Dash doesn't give us freedom of movement. It's easier to use, yes, because you just tap a key, but

a) we're not fully in control of the swoop

and

b) we're only allowed to fight linearly because drift isn't an option.


ESF IS all about ki management, and that's why drift was so important to 1.1 and 1.2 (moreso in 1.2). There's a huge difference between being able to choose your altitude by just dropping and being forced to swoop or dash which uses ki if you want to go up or down. What this does is force the more skillful player to either rely on teleportation or try to remain less active than his opponent.

Right, the goal of ESF is to get people to just come in and start playing immediately. You guys accomplished that with 1.2. Let's try to, you know, keep the players this time. After a certain point, one feels that the game is simple and repetitive, and that's because there's no depth to the gameplay. Your answer to simplicity? Make everything needlessly complicated without actually improving anything. You took out drifting and that was an entire layer of ESF, you cut swoop in 2, basically telling us which is used for what instead of allowing us to figure out ways to use a single swoop for multiple purposes, and now we're going to have to play a fighting game because simple melee was too hardcore. People will play the game because it has every transformation and looks pretty, but unless you get gameplay right this time, it's going the way of 1.2.

Guess who taught me how to drift. Nope. Guess again. Try again.

The bots did. And if someone ingame asks everyone how to drift, I'll tell him, because it's a basic part of the game, not some super secret "advanced melee combo" that does absolutely nothing. It's required knowledge.

1.3 seems to be smoke and mirrors so far. The illusion of freedom of movement, the illusion of depth, the illusion of a superb system in the near future. I understand this is a beta, but it doesn't take prescience to see where this is heading.

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I'm with you on all points, David, although I still think have two separate swoops if pointless. However, if they're gonna stay, they should at least be done right.