ScrewAttack: Goku vs Superman

[Zeonix]

Goku would undoubtedly come to the same conclusion after breaking his fists on Superman.

 

[FalconFury]

naw goku is too strong.

 

[RobiZ]

naw goku is too strong.

I like trains :fight: no ?

 

[Eon]

naw goku is too strong.

There you have it guys. Thread is now over after this analysis.

 

[FalconFury]

still waiting for that video folks

 

[macdaddymario]

The ki in dragonball is not the same thing as what we know as chi from tai chi / kung fu. Akira Toriyama created it for his DBZ world BASED on it.

It's the same thing, just blown into amazing proportions. What you said, is like saying The Force in say the original trilogy, is NOT the same as The Force used in the games "The Force Unleashed". It's the same thing, just heavily expanded upon. The exact same thing done with ki from our universe, and moved into DB/Z.

This bit is more for Grega: It has the same basic foundation as the 'ki' people talk about in real life, but is just blown up into something WAY bigger then could be possible in the reality it is based on.

 

[Renyori]

It's the same thing. What you said, is like saying The Force in say the original trilogy, is NOT the same as The Force used in the games "The Force Unleashed". It's the same thing, just blow into epic proportions. The exact same thing done with ki from our universe, and moved into DB/Z.

This bit is more for Grega It has the same basic foundation as the 'ki' people talk about in real life, but is just blown up into something WAY bigger then could be possible in the reality it is based on.

No it is not.. Akira Toriyama based the DB ki off the real life one. Akira stated that DB ki is made up of 3 components Energy, Mind, and Courage. Research actual Chi in the Chinese culture, and you'll find that no where. It's not the same thing.

 

[macdaddymario]

What he states and what he writes are two totally different things. Reading the manga, you clearly see that ki is used to describe ones life force. Look at the scouter readings for Farmer and Turtle.. then look at scenes where they sense a power fading and then instantly say "someone is dying". Ki, in DB/Z is tied into life force based on these alone. We don't need to continue this part of that debate any further.

 

[Renyori]

.. Huh? What Akira describes is what it is. If he says the ki in the DB world is made up of those 3 things, then it is. His word is law.

Yes it is used to described ones life force, in the DB world. DB characters need ki to be alive. Naruto characters need chakra to be alive. Hunterxhunter characters need Nen to be alive. Naruto characters don't need Nen to be alive. DC charcters don't need ki to be alive. Real Life people don't need any of those 3 to be alive.

 

[macdaddymario]

What he writes is law in regards to the debate on hand, not what he describes. As I said, he shows that ki is the life energy in every living being in the world of Dragonball and does so through the methods I listed, and has shown that people who dedicate their lives to training both mind and body can do amazing things with it. however there are also people in the world of DB who do not train and because of that, they are awestruck when they see it used in front of them. The Chinese form of chi is described as a life force, thus we all have it and need it to live as well. Once the life force becomes to weak to sustain an aging body is when it becomes one with the other surrounding energies and it leaves. We can not live without our chi (ki in Japanese) we die. The exact same as those in the world of DB.

All AT did, was take the concept of a life energy, and turned it into something bigger then it ever has been described in real life. He can state he made ki up, or he can state that it's a mix of those 3 things.. but the fact of the matter is, those 3 things are never mentioned in DB/Z, and in place of those, we are told about ki being inside of every living thing in the universe.. The oceans, the plants, the animals, the people.. even the sky is described as having an energy. Which is almost exactly what is talked about when talking about chi in real life.


All that said, am i saying that if I trained my whole life, would I be able to fly and shoot blue beams out of my hand? No. But I also never said that. I simply said that ki is not something he made up, it is something that many cultures around the world believe exist and have believed existed for hundreds if not thousands of years.

 

[Renyori]

What he writes is law in regards to the debate on hand, not what he describes. As I said, he shows that ki is the life energy in every living being in the world of Dragonball and does so through the methods I listed, and has shown that people who dedicate their lives to training both mind and body can do amazing things with it. however there are also people in the world of DB who do not train and because of that, they are awestruck when they see it used in front of them. The Chinese form of chi is described as a life force, thus we all have it and need it to live as well. Once the life force becomes to weak to sustain an aging body is when it becomes one it leaves. we can not live without our chi (ki in Japanese) we die. The exact same as those in the world of DB.

What he writes is HIS description of HIS version of Ki. The same Ki he uses in HIS manga. Yes DB characters need ki to be alive, we've already established that. Akira Toriyama gave more detail about how his ki works as well, and it did NOT coincide with the chi belief in the real world. Therefore, they're not the same thing. Please don't tell me he's wrong and you're right, because i'm going to take his word over yours.

Which is almost exactly what is talked about when talking about chi.

Almost is the key word here. They're not the same thing. Yes they're similar, that's because Akira BASED it off the chinese ki, just as Naruto based chakra off the Hindu chakra. As I said before, if AT's version of "ki" exists in the DC universe, then Masashi Kishimoto version of "Chakra", Yoshihiro Togashi's "Nen", Kubo's "Reiatsu", "The Force", "Lifestream", "haki", "reiki", and every other energy that exists in manga must exist in the DC universe which would make no sense because there would be so many contradictions it would just be silly.

 

[macdaddymario]

I'm telling you that what he says in an interview, is not the same as the description that we get in the manga. What I have said we got in the manga is what we are discussing. That's all that needs to be said about it. His description, as given by explanation between characters and characters to themselves is exactly what I have stated 3 times now. It has nothing to do with courage, and is instead only tied into their mind and body being one. Again, the same overall description with real life chi.

No one is talking about DC in our little sub debate here. I don't see what that has to do with anything, we're obviously on two different pages. The debate was ki being something real or not.

Most western cultures don't understand it, many eastern ones do. You're trying to say that ki in Db is different in so many ways then RL. That's what this is about. I'm saying you're wrong. The only difference is the proportions to which it is blown. See shooting blue beams and flying. Now see what is at the base of it. A being.. be it human, animal or other.. has an energy. It moves through and is surrounded by other energies. This is the real life depiction of ki as well as the base perception we are lead to in DB. Past that base perception, we are lead to training your mind and body will increase your ability to manipulate your own bodies ki, as well as make it grow. That is the fundamental liberty taken with ki in the DB universe.. everything before that is similar if not exactly the same as the bases for chi in real life.

 

[Zeonix]

1) When the author's vision is being compared to the dialogue of his characters, the author's version takes precedence. He created the characters and has a far deeper level of understanding of the material than the characters do. They are a part of the system he has designed.
2) Stop trying to prove the existence of ki. It doesn't matter if China has been saying the same thing for 3000 years. It hasn't helped them, and in 3000 years, they've failed to prove its existence through scientific means. It's a matter of belief; not much more.

 

[macdaddymario]

Don't care to be bothered with number 1, as I clearly stated what was on debate was what was in the manga. On the note of number 2.. the part that actually intrigues me... by that logic, no intelligent life exists off of Planet Earth either, nor does anything super natural. Now, I'm not going to get into the super natural one.. however the 'aliens' thing, that could be a fun one. Like chi, there is 0 physical 100% scientific proof that intelligent life exists. Is that what you are trying to say? Because it is one in the same. Personally I don't believe aliens exist.. are you saying that science has proven they don't?

 

[Renyori]

I think this is where I'm misunderstanding you. I didn't know you had a description from the manga that contradicts with what Akira Toriyama described. Can you show me the panel that shows that contradiction?

No one is talking about DC in our little sub debate here. I don't see what that has to do with anything. The debate was ki being something real or not.

I think you need to take a step back and read the pages beforehand, and actually read all the replies. This entire sub debate was trying to figure out whether it would exist in the DC world or not. If you agree that it wouldn't, then we can end it already. Even if I do believe the chinese chi exists in the real world, Akira Toriyama's version definitely doesn't.

Most western cultures don't understand it, many eastern ones do. You're trying to say that ki in Db is different in so many ways then RL. That's what this is about. I'm saying you're wrong. The only difference is the proportions to which it is blown. See shooting blue beams and flying. Now see what is at the base of it. A being.. be it human, animal or other.. has an energy. It moves through and is surrounded by other energies. This is the real life depiction of ki as well as the base perception we are lead to in DB. Past that base perception, we are lead to training your mind and body will increase your ability to manipulate your own bodies ki, as well as make it grow. That is the fundamental liberty taken with ki in the DB universe.. everything before that is similar if not exactly the same as the bases for chi in real life.

When did I say it's different in "so many ways"? I said it's similar BUT different. I said it's similar because Akira Toriyama BASED it off the chi belief of the real world.

 

[macdaddymario]

I will look for that panel for you.

I wasn't addressing the DC issue at all. it may have been part of what all of you were debating, but I thought I made it clear in my first quote that I was only talking about the ki section of that debate, so I still don't really see a need to bring it up here. I can agree that ki, in the sense that it is used in DBZ wouldn't exist in DC, however I can not say that ki in the sense that is described in real life doesn't, purely because it is never addressed as far as I am aware.

 

[Zeonix]

The statistical likelihood of intelligent life existing in the Universe is far greater than the likelihood of a magical force intrinsic to organic material existing. Furthermore, it'd be far easier to prove the former than the latter, especially considering:

A) Water is the one thing we believe is mandatory for life as we know it to exist
B) Water is apparently quite plentiful in our solar system, let alone the Universe
C) Planets like ours aren't nearly as rare as we originally thought

And that's only covering life as we know it.

As for the supernatural, which the concept of ki may or may not belong to depending on one's interpretation of it, I don't know that science goes out of its way to prove or disprove that which can not be proven or disproven. Supernatural things tend not to be observable or testable, which allows people to maintain their belief in them.

 

[macdaddymario]

Ahh. that's not what I asked though. I asked, since 0 physical 100% scientific proof exits as to the existence of intelligent life.. are you saying they don't exist? Because it is exactly what you said about chi. Remember, we aren't talking statistics. We are talking about what has and hasn't been proven.

 

[Zeonix]

I'm talking about science. You're talking about absolutism. Nothing is absolutely 100% anything. Nothing in science is ever 100% true or an absolute fact. To believe otherwise is to run counter to the spirit of science.

 

[macdaddymario]

2) Stop trying to prove the existence of ki. It doesn't matter if China has been saying the same thing for 3000 years. It hasn't helped them, and in 3000 years, they've failed to prove its existence through scientific means. It's a matter of belief; not much more.

That sounds like you dealing in absolutes to me...